Role of the Internet in the Marine Ornamentals trade.

[dizzy]

I couldn't help but notice that James (and maybe John B) will be speaking on "The Role of the Internet in the Marine Ornamental's Trade". (at MO)
Why don't we all just chip in and explain what impact we see the internet as having, and maybe James and possibly John can gleen some useful information to share with the people outside this industry.

Food for thought:
1. Is reefs.org helping or hurting the MAC certification cause? Explain.
2. Does internet e-tailing enhance the spread of cut-throat pricing?
3. Are bb being used to unfairly bash lfs?
4. Should lfs tell their customers about sites like this one, knowing there will be all the banners from the e-tailers?
5. Is drop shipping livestock a fair practice?
6. Should we all try to get on the e-tail bandwagon, or is it big enough to hold us all?
7. Do you think MAC will eventually allow e-tailers to become certified?

These are all fair questions, and this is our chance to help James be able to give a better picture of the future, and how the Internet is likely to affect our industry. I can tell you that it is getting very difficult to sell certain products any more. I think Glenn pointed some of them out in the other thread on power buys. We certainly get reminded quite often from our customers that they can buy stuff cheaper on the internet. They also get quite a bit of bogus information too so let's discuss that as well.
Mitch

 

[clarionreef]

Diz,
Heres a way to tell what value what has.
If the flea dies...the dog is fine.
If the dog dies...the flea dies.

If the e-tail live/drop fish schemes fail...the hobby does fine.
If the storefront fish stores die...the hobby collapses.

The economy of scale created by storefronts IS the trade.
The skimming off of commerce that they deserve is a tragedy...and will futher weaken accountability in the chain of custody of livestock.

If wholesalers had the courage to deny them, then the trade could continue to evolve intelligently.
This 'fly by nite, pig in a poke' mutation of retailing is best seen for what it is when e-tail customers go to the local shop w/ sick fish and seek counsel, assistance and personal service.
Such 'customers' have some nerve.

But...the very same importers that brought you the cyanide trade are not now going to behave against type and do something responsible.
Its not in them.

Sincerely, Steve

 

[Anonymous]

#4 makes no sense to me because it doesn't necessarily sway buyers away, it only helps to educate them and perhaps fend off the 'customers' with "nerve"..

But, having at least an e-presence certainly doesn't hurt to get yourself known... :wink:

 

[dizzy]

#4 makes no sense to me because it doesn't necessarily sway buyers away, it only helps to educate them and perhaps fend off the 'customers' with "nerve"..

But, having at least an e-presence certainly doesn't hurt to get yourself known... :wink:

Grate,
At least part of that education seems to be that the lfs in general are stupid, greedy, liars. Livestock sales are less affected by the internet than dry good sales. I'm certainly not trying to suggest that all aspects of the internet are detrimental to retailers. I guess I'm just trying to suggest that any serious discussion about the "Role of the Internet in the Marine Ornamental trade" should include possible negative consequences as well as positive ones. I guess I should also mention that the term negative may depend on your perspective on things.

 

[Anonymous]

Sure it does. There are plenty of customers that don't even knw the etail side exists. If we recommend them to RDO for the information, suddenly a whole world of cheap cheap aquarium supplies pops up and we might lose the customers. Especially with newbies who don't really now how things work, because they simply come away with the impression that the LFS is price gouging them.

 

[Anonymous]

There are plenty of customers that don't even knw the etail side exists.

What are you smoking Rover? - Please, share!

People don't know that things are bought and sold on the 'net??

:lol:

Come on! - I blew over $300 on crap equipment a couple months or so before I found RDO... - Hell, the only reason I own a suckclone skimmer is because I didn't find RDO before I found Marine Depot... :roll:

My guess is a lot of you guys really need to re-evaluate your views on the web.. :?

 

[dizzy]

Come on! - I blew over $300 on crap equipment a couple months or so before I found RDO... - Hell, the only reason I own a suckclone skimmer is because I didn't find RDO before I found Marine Depot... :roll:

My guess is a lot of you guys really need to re-evaluate your views on the web.. :?

Grate,
I agree that most people know about online shopping these days. It comes as no surprise that people like to buy stuff as cheaply as possible. I am confused though. :? I seem to recall you putting in a good word for your local store. I think we both agree MSS is one of the good guys. I doubt it was an online store that got you into the hobby, so why didn't you go to your local MAC certified store and buy the skimmer? I doubt M would have given you bad advice on which skimmer to buy. If you really like your local store and want to see them stay in business then you should consider supporting them.
Mitch

 

[jamesw]

Only about 30% of the "general public" uses the internet guys.

OK, now I think it's important to point out that the Session at MO-2004 is "The Role of the Media." NOT just the internet. I am participating in the session and I will address the role of the internet. So I would love to hear y'alls feedback ahead of time, so I will know when to duck.

I think it will be an exciting session, and I am looking forward to seeing some of you there.

Here's a question for Dizzy: Does your store sell FAMA? What's the difference between selling FAMA in your store and recommending Reefs.org?

Cheers
James

 

[fredricko]

Come on grateful, no one here wants the real answers or to change their old, dusty views. The freakin mod of this forum hates etailers selling livestock...doesnt mind if they sell the high end crap no one needs anyway in the hardogood categories. Believe me, many of us read every word on here, and are amazed constantly at the crazy, outdated guidelines you think this hobby has/needs etc. Many of us have been in the hooby/biz as long or longer than you, but we let our customers toot our horns...no need to do it ourselves.

The only thing killing this hobby is wrong information. It comes from every angle, retailers, etailers, wholesalers, exporters, maintenance guys, you name it...each angle played is full of bd info. Each angle is also full of good info. Nothing about the internet or etailers is ruining the hobby. If the industry hadnt been so piss poorly managed while those here have been in charge, then internet service businesses wouldn't be growing at the astronomical rate they are. They wouldn't have to raise in captivity all the species your fabulous brick and mortar world raped from the oceans.

Peace, and whoever thinks proper, licensed etail is less overhead than retail...needs to actually walk a mile my friend

 

[Anonymous]

Welcome to the forum Fredricko.

I never said I hated etailers selling livestock. I jus think that particular aspect is best suited to the brick and mortars, because you are always better off being able to see the animal and observe how it has been handled before it is purchased. And I didn't say etailers should seel crap no one needs. Heck, my store doesn't sell many mh set ups, but I sell a lot of corals. I know good and well where they bought the lighting systems from. So in a way I am depending on the etailers to essentially create new customers for me. I simply don't have the resources to put enough cash into that side to be able to compete with etail. My solution, explain what customers need and let them get whatever they choose where they choose. Most often because of the good advice they got from me in the beginning, they continue to come back to make other purchases. As for the bread and butter dry goods, that is a situation that is between the manufacturer and me. We push the products that push us, and I expect discounts and price breaks on those items to be able to compete with etail as well. No body wins when competition is limited. In the long run competition leads to improvement.

There is also the other point that many people simply don't live any where near a brick and mortar store. In this case the etailers have allowed the hobby to grow outside of the large metropolitan areas, and to expand faster than it would if it were completely dependent on the progress of the storefronts. Which is a good thing for the hobby.

The only thing killing this hobby is wrong information. It comes from every angle, retailers, etailers, wholesalers, exporters, maintenance guys, you name it...each angle played is full of bd info.

That's the beauty of this forum (and the board in general). Thanks for participating.

If the industry hadnt been so piss poorly managed while those here have been in charge, then internet service businesses wouldn't be growing at the astronomical rate they are.

No doubt about it, etail is here to stay in the hobby, and without a doubt it will change things. But not all change is bad.

What are you smoking Rover? - Please, share!

People don't know that things are bought and sold on the 'net??

Our store is primarily in the business of getting people started. As dizzy pointed out, very few people start out based on what they saw on web site. Most often they get started in the brick and mortars. As a beginning hobbyist, I don't make it a practice to point them to all of the bargains they can find by shopping on the net. I let them find out on their own (hopefully not till after we have developed a realtionship of trust with them).

Come on! - I blew over $300 on crap equipment a couple months or so before I found RDO... - Hell, the only reason I own a suckclone skimmer is because I didn't find RDO before I found Marine Depot...

I agree with you completely. It *bugs* me to no end that it is 10x easier to order a sea clone than it is to order an Aqua C. Or that it is much easier to make a decent margin on the sea clone (and still be competitive) than it is on the aqua c. But who's fault is this? The retailers can't necessarily help how the distribution and pricing is set up. But it is definitely much harder to sell good quality stuff, than it is to sell crap. At least at the brick and mortar retail level.



Good discussion!

 

[dizzy]

Here's a question for Dizzy: Does your store sell FAMA? What's the difference between selling FAMA in your store and recommending Reefs.org?
Cheers
James

James,
We used to sell it. I always respected Don Dewey and found the magazine to be a great source of information. The reason we pulled the magazine was definitely the mail order. When I overheard one customer tell another to buy a copy so he could get stuff cheaper I decided to quit selling it. We just discount the good books like Fenner's and try and get people to educate themselves that way. Your right though it is the same thing.

That's dude's comment about e-tailers having the same overhead as brick and motars is pure crap though. Ain't a city in the country where garage and wharehouse space ain't cheaper than prime retail. The tax rates are higher too. I sure wish we could get Burton Patrick to weigh in with his expertise on how the retailer gets the shaft verus the etailer.

 

[dizzy]

If the industry hadnt been so piss poorly managed while those here have been in charge, then internet service businesses wouldn't be growing at the astronomical rate they are. They wouldn't have to raise in captivity all the species your fabulous brick and mortar world raped from the oceans.

I just got to point out that this statement is bs too. Pretty much all the banner ad companies are selling animals harvested from the wild. Pretty much all industries are being hurt by etailing and not just the marine ornamentals. The reason is lower overhead. It is of interest to note that our very own spawner will be speaking at MO about companies that are selling wild caught animals as captive reared. I have a little inside information on this and it should be interesting.

 

[clarionreef]

Right Dizzy,
After FAMA started carrying those flea market sales ads in the back...its lustre as a good news and media source dried up considerably.
Back then FAMA was carrying the message the way RDO does now, but those ads alienated so many retailers and the better ones at that, that they lost a great deal of readership potential.
We're all less read and less educated for it.
To me it was kinda like book burnings by the books own publisher.
Oh well...what a shame. I wonder how things may have been without the sell-out to the mail order wharehouses. I guess we'll never know.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I am confused though. :? I seem to recall you putting in a good word for your local store. I think we both agree MSS is one of the good guys. I doubt it was an online store that got you into the hobby, so why didn't you go to your local MAC certified store and buy the skimmer? I doubt M would have given you bad advice on which skimmer to buy. If you really like your local store and want to see them stay in business then you should consider supporting them.
Mitch

:?

I only found out about MSSs shop about a month after I found RDO. (Already made the "bad buy".....)

And no, he wouldn't have given me bunk advice on equipment. He was the first to let me know that new canister filter I bought was probably going to work out best as a vaccum and thats it... Since then the only dry purchases I've made was the Euro, some kalk, a couple test kits, salt and poly pads. Really the only reason I didn't get the Euro, kalk and test kits from him is because his shop is a 2 hr round trip drive from me. (But he's still about the closest except for a wholesaler who's offered to open his doors to me with advance notice.. - But as much as I usually buy, I'd feel wierd asking that just to buy a handful of snails or what have you..)

But anyway, all my rock, most of my sand, all my livestock and a few small bits of drygoods (bag of salt, poly filters...) were bought from his shop though.

I don't know why I feel like I have to defend myself here though, I know I've sent at least a half dozen folks to his shop who've spent some pretty pennies and probably passed the word on from there as well...

Yeah, I guess I did come into his shop a couple times with sick fish stories (they got better) but those fish did come from his shop.. And they probably would have stayed perfectly healthy right through if I hadn't moronically poisoned them by using the wrong silicone in building/rebuilding my sump.

And no, I don't necessarily think they would have died if they weren't MAC-certified fish either.. :wink:

Norm

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with you completely.

OOH! - I'm gonna have to point Fuzz to this thread! - Do I get to use that in my sig now?

It *bugs* me to no end that it is 10x easier to order a sea clone than it is to order an Aqua C. Or that it is much easier to make a decent margin on the sea clone (and still be competitive) than it is on the aqua c. But who's fault is this? The retailers can't necessarily help how the distribution and pricing is set up. But it is definitely much harder to sell good quality stuff, than it is to sell crap. At least at the brick and mortar retail level.

Yeah, and that's why I've never been suprised to see very little dry goods in shops like MSSs.. Personally, if one were closer I wouldn't mind one bit to stop in and chat for a few minutes on a skimmer buy, lay down some $$ and come back in a few days to pick up my new toy.. - But then, I've learned a little bit in the last year or so that I never knew before...

 

[Anonymous]

Another aspect of the Internet to bring up however.
(And this applies to the pet industry as a whole).

One thing that the etailers have right is the quick and easy streamlined ordering system they have put into place. You go to their site and you generate a reciept which then generates a purchase order or packing slip at their wherehouse (assuming they have one). This eliminates a lot of middlemen and again cuts back on overhead. The way most of my companies handle my orders is the opposite. I generate a purchase order in my shop and on my computer system, print it out (sometimes multiple times for corrections), fax it to the wholesaler, who then pays someone to sit and enter all of the information by hand into their system to generate a packing slip on their end. This costs so much in paper, ink, and man hours that is so easily done away with by going to an internet based system. And there is nothing stopping them from doing it to lower thier own overhead to drop prices down to compete with etail. The same goes for wholesalers in the livestock segment. I get 50 pages of faxes every weekend of stock lists of various companies and maybe 10% of it is things I'm interested in. Why we haven't gone to a strictly email system for ordering to eliminate all the faxes is beyond me. We go on about all the fish and corals we are killing but forget about the trees.

 

[dizzy]

I get 50 pages of faxes every weekend of stock lists of various companies and maybe 10% of it is things I'm interested in. Why we haven't gone to a strictly email system for ordering to eliminate all the faxes is beyond me. We go on about all the fish and corals we are killing but forget about the trees.

Rover,
More and more livestock wholesalers are sending their list via e-mail. As far as faxes go, get you one of the 4in1 printer, scanner, copier, fax machines. Then you can have the fax sent to your PC where you can read them and only print any pages you might want. The rest can simply be deleted and a tree has been saved. BTW I think they are down to around $300 or so.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

I have one of those. How do you get the fax sent to the PC?

 

[Anonymous]

excellent point, Glenn

 

[dizzy]

I have one of those. How do you get the fax sent to the PC?

Glenn,
You will need a cable that goes from your PC to your 4in1 machine. Ours is the HP Office Jet 700 series. First you click on the HP Office Jet Manager icon. Then the settings bar. Next fax setup. Then receive settings. You have the choice of: to printer, or to PC. Select the to PC option and your good to go.