Role of the Internet in the Marine Ornamentals trade.

[dizzy]

RE RICOREDA
Most of the ricoreda comes from Haiti. I know, cuz I import it and sell it to most of the Large U.S. wholesalers.
Big Bob

That may well be Bob, but how does one know really? I've been in this industry quite awhile and I remember when it was plentiful and cheap from Florida. I'm assuming that making it illegal to harvest hasn't caused it dry up as a possible source. What's to stop someone who is bringing in the Haiti stuff from mixing in some illegal Florida stuff? Don't ya reckon that the guys who used to go out and get the stuff and bring it up North by the truck load, still know where to go find it? It fetches quit a bit more these days than it did back in the late 80s early 90s. I know someone who lives in Key West and I hear reports of how some of those keys characters have their own interpretations of the laws. People gotta eat and get drinking money Bob. The thing is with these internet companies no one can visit, and you just never know what is going on. It's pretty easy to close up one garage operation and move to another under a new business name. A legitimate retailer who has chosen this industry as his his/her life work is less likely to risk losing their investment by breaking the law.

I realize there are good, honest etailers out there. I also realize etailing is here to stay. I wish I could influence who RDO choses to allow as advertisers. If they would listen I would tell them to only allow etailers who are also open to the public. If they would do this it would help to reduce the chances that this board is being used to promote illegal commerce. I further believe that the etailers who allow the public to walk-in are also much less likely to allow hitchhiking pests to proliferate in their systems. Public scrutiny, like a new broom, sweeps clean.

 

[bobimport]

Ricoreda collected in the Keys.

First Ricoreda is legal to collect in the Key's. Rock is not.
When a sponge diver in Tarpon Springs snags a sponge off the ocean floor a 1 sq inch "by catch is allowed" same goes for gargonia and finger sponge is allowed to have rock attached. now if you have two ricoreda on a 2 sq inch rock is that ok? I don't know that's why I don't deal in it. ( also i get unlimited amounts from Haiti cheeper than a diver from the Key's could ever sell it to me.) Someone will get busted and challange it in court and win. I have to go now I have 15000 lbs of rock due in this week.


Big Bob

driveing down the price of rock

 

[shr00m]

price, the bottom line is always gonna be price... maybe if the lfs wasnt 3 times more expensive than online i would buy things there... but the bottom line really is price... when you get nearly anything aqurium releated nearly 1/3rd the price online, Especially lights which you can DIY for like 1/4th the price, hey i understand being upset about people not buying, but why pay more for the same thing... unless its live stock which you can visually inspect... but for most fish and livestock this really isnt that necessary if your dealing with a reputable dealer, IMO etailers may make LFSs owners get off there monopoly horse.

 

[clarionreef]

Shroom,
Thanks for posting.
I think your sentiments represent a solid 90% of the hobby community, 95% of the retailers and 97 1/2% of the importers.
Cash and carry low-ball flea market philiosophy where not much else matters....
Take note MAC and all the other eggheads who believe that this thing will be solved thru the top down. The top, meaning the consumer end, is as selfish and greedy as anyone else anywhere. No enlightenment will race thru the trade to convert it for reasons of higher purpose.
Answers will come from the field, from Asia and from village friendly technology transfer and training. Not from the enlightened West.
The best we can do is support the conversion of fisherman for their own reasons, not ours...
Shroom has shown us the way...the way that will not work.
Village up is the only road that can win. No training...no peace.
Steve

 

[buddy620]

Several comments have been made in this thread that seem unfair to etailers. As far as those etailers not declaring income on their taxes or paying sales tax, shame on them (but shame on you for not reporting them to the proper authorities). The reputable etailers do declare their income on their taxes and do pay their state sales tax. There seems to be some confusion between “Hobbyist” selling on line and true etailers. They are not the same and should not be grouped together - it would be like comparing a Live Fish Store operation with someone selling out of their garage - they both have “Brick & Mortar”.

So, I travel alot. I have yet to find lights, pods, live sand critters or for that matter ANYTHING that my animals need to survive in a 250 mile radius of my home

If buying on the internet is not your “cup of tea” then so be it - but the reputable etailers provide a service to those people who cannot get to a store because of location, handicap, working schedule or simply choose not to (some people don’t like to go the stores). Should these people be punished?? Or told they can’t enjoy the hobby??

Maybe the local store doesn’t have what they are looking for - does that mean that they can only buy what’s available even if it’s not what they want. (It’s like buying a green SPS because it’s the only one offered at the local store, when I really want to buy a blue one .) I think everyone has the right to shop when, where and how they choose.

As with any business, it comes down to reputation, product availability and quality customer service. If you find a business with these attributes, you buy from them - doesn’t matter if it’s an etailer or a local store.

As far as the statement about shipping with heat pack and proper temperature then you must not be aware of how these animals get to the US. In some cases, the livestock is in containers up to 35 hrs plus, where some etailers can ship door to door in a lot less time. There are etailer that do offer as good of a guarantee as some of the LFS.

given that the internet is one genie that can't be put back in it's bottle, or even, probably, leashed I’d say that regardless if you like the net or not, it's something that everyone is behooven to take advantage of.

That is what they refer to as progress. Bottom line is that when some of the LFS see that they are losing some of their business to the net it is nature to attach that source.

We don't have that option with the etailers for the most part. Many do not allow walk-in at all. The fact is people probably wouldn't buy livestock from some of these etailers if they could see the conditions first hand.

You are speaking in general terms “again” ! I know of some etailers that also allow walk-in. One comes to mind, Harbor Aquatic.

I'm assuming that James is going to promote the positive aspects of the web in his little chit chat at MO. The objective here is to show that there are negative aspects as well, so he will be able to present a more informed picture of the overall effect the internet will have on our industry.

You have mentioned the negative aspects but I guess you have no positive aspect to offer yourself??

James

"fair and balanced

then you go on to say

I can think of LOTS of cons personally. If anyone else would like to list some cons here, I'll try to work them into my talk.

You can’t have it both way my friend. :wink:

The etailers are not going to disappear! There are some great ones out there and some that are not, same as LFS.

 

[naesco]

In business, the strong survive. Source whatever you want, from wherever you can get it, at whatever the cost.
Is it not that unfettered free enterprise that makes America great.

 

[Anonymous]

As far as the statement about shipping with heat pack and proper temperature then you must not be aware of how these animals get to the US. In some cases, the livestock is in containers up to 35 hrs plus, where some etailers can ship door to door in a lot less time. There are etailer that do offer as good of a guarantee as some of the LFS.

You must not be aware of the drop shipping game then. The MAJOR (sorry, Joy (HA)isn't a major etailer) etailers in the US don't have facilities for their livestock, they simply have a packing station and dry goods wharehouse. They send out jobbers to the major LA wholesalers and pick up what you orderred. Yup, straight outa tanks where the fish just arrived from a what, 35+ hour journey in a bag, only to spend another 12+ hours getting to the hobbyist who is unaware that their fish never once touched a etailer holding tank. All the guarantees in the world will not bring a dead fish back to life, nor the headache/heart ache of losing one. Knowingly killing fish, offerring a guarentee on them and replacing them should be a criminal act.


Harbor Aquatics has never been brought up in etail conversation in this forum for good reason, many don't have a problem with that type of etail (and HA tanks their livestock!!!!). Of course not all etailers are built from the same mold, we know this and don't discuss them in the same forum as the bad ones so we don't blemish their good names. Yah, I can think of many medium size etailers that are good, but its the bad practices that hurt the trade, not the good ones.

 

[JennM]

So many things I read in this thread which I want to reply to... hopefully I'll remember them all.

First off, and it's just a pet peeve, but humour me...

Bobimport: It's RICORDEA, not Ricoreda - if you're making bags of money off it, you could at least spell it properly Petty I know but I saw the mistake repeated over and over so I know it's not a typo. Keep on driving (note spelling) that price of rock down... it makes the stuff I bring in look better every day

I concur with the discussions about the vastly different kinds of etailers out there. IMO the ones that do operate a walk-in operation have a lot more credibility (and dare I say, long-term viability?) than the garage-based, or drop-ship operations.

All those high and mighty, cheapskate hobbyists might get a real surprise if they walked into the places where their cheap MO fish come from, versus their "crappy lfs". You might find that some of those crappy lfs look mighty fine after some of the other options - just that "out of sight, out of mind" mentality exists. One just assumes that the livestock comes from a pristine facility with clean healthy systems, caring knowledgable expert staff, and etc. Perhaps some are this way, many (most?) are not. But because you didn't see it with your own eyes, you just assume that it's OK.

In GA, I'm subject to inspection by the state's Department of Agriculture, and I'm required to have a licence to sell livestock. Garage based, below-the-radar operations aren't subject to the same laws, taxes and fees that a "real" store is, even though they should be, I'd be willing to bet that many (most) don't seek proper zoning, don't seek an animal protection licence, and other procedures that are standard in business. I've blown the whistle on these, but not sure if anything has ever been done - I'm sure the state has bigger fish to fry than the guy selling snails and Caulerpa out of his basement.

Shroom hit it on the head - devil may care about where the fish are from, how they were collected, how they were housed or transported... just that they are CHEAP. It's all about money, no matter how you slice it. Cheaper is better, even at the expense of the animal's health, or even the life of the collector who caught it. Cut costs on budget freight (the milk run is cheaper than the direct flight), skimp on the heat/ice packs... it's all about cost, right? Bag several in one bag, saves water=weight=freight costs... so what if half die in the bag? Net cost will still be cheaper...

The Bitterness of Poor Quality Lasts Long After the Sweet Price is Forgotten

Jenn

 

[zbt]

Seems you folks are painting etailers with a broad brush, not all are fly by night basement operations, starry eyed hobbyists, or drop shippers, or really owned by the wholesalers in LA that are selling to your customers. Brick and mortar folks should quite your whining and get with the 21st century and challenge the etailers with better products and service--offer a better alternative and most hobbyists will go to you and not just price, sad news is that most brick and mortar shops are deplorable in stock and advise, despite claims and whines about being regulated by state/govt. agencies. These boards "regulate" etailers far better than any state employee could "regulate" a brick and mortar shop. Not all etailers are cutting prices and selling cheap, some offer better selection and quality than brick and mortar stores, especially when it comes to the high end hobbyist's demands, how many brick and mortar stores have a great selection of Acropora and similar SPS corals like some of the high end etailers? Answer, not many because they can't keep them alive and don't care to learn or invest in the needed equipment. Heck, most never even read the books they have on their shelves, think this is not true, then go out today to half a dozen local stores and tell me what you see. Likely a teenager or owner that sits behind the counter talking on the phone or grumbling to a customer selling them a sea clone skimmer---ask most hobbysists and see if this is an inaccurate description of the vast number of brick and mortar reef stores! Good thing the etailers are out there, they get the brick and mortar stores off their butts and doing a better job, competition is a good thing. Don't like the mega online stores like F & S, then do something about it instead of whining about state regulation or how they don't pay their fair share of taxes, because you can't do anything about those things, what you can do is make the retail experience the best it can be and hobbyists will flock to you, most folks would always prefer to see what they are buying--livestock or dry goods. More government regulation or laws are not the answer in my opinion, get off you butt, wise up, and do something about it in a business smart way, otherwise you will join the coal and ice delivery man and the buggy whip salesman. The internet is not going away and you will not regulate it away, deal with it, embrass it, use it to your advantage, and stop whining because someone else figured out a way to do things differently and more attractively than you.

p.s., Bob from D. R., you need to stay off the boards, you never seem to help yourself much when you post and always come off too self serving, you have a good business and great products and don't need to drill that into everyone here by saying you supply the world with Carribean inverts and Ricordea, let your products do the talking man--your on the verge of turning customers off, they cringe when you post.

 

[naesco]

Shroom hit it on the head - devil may care about where the fish are from, how they were collected, how they were housed or transported... just that they are CHEAP. It's all about money, no matter how you slice it. Cheaper is better, even at the expense of the animal's health, or even the life of the collector who caught it. Cut costs on budget freight (the milk run is cheaper than the direct flight), skimp on the heat/ice packs... it's all about cost, right? Bag several in one bag, saves water=weight=freight costs... so what if half die in the bag? Net cost will still be cheaper... """


So the answer is to do something about it instead of complaining.

Level the playing field.

Petition the government to do the following.

1. Institue cyanide detection testing (CDT) on all fish entering the US. Foreign suppliers involved in the cyanide trade who sell cheap fish to scumbag stateside importers will be out of business.
2. Set minimum standards for the transport of wildlife like maximum travel time, minimum bag sizing and temperature requirments.
3. Mandate the use of the bags that allow for the exchange of oxygen.
4. Prohibit the import of impossible to keep species (the USL).

In a nutshell you have to choose between some dated, Right of Attila the Hun political/economic philosophy on the one hand, and your business success, the future of the reefs and the care of its inhbitants on the other.

 

[Anonymous]

There seems to be some confusion between “Hobbyist” selling on line and true etailers. They are not the same and should not be grouped together -

True, the hobbiest selling online, would have much better/healthier livestock.

Maybe the local store doesn’t have what they are looking for - does that mean that they can only buy what’s available even if it’s not what they want. (It’s like buying a green SPS because it’s the only one offered at the local store, when I really want to buy a blue one .) I think everyone has the right to shop when, where and how they choose.

Again, that's why "I" travel ALOT.

There are etailer that do offer as good of a guarantee as some of the LFS.

True, with etail you get to pay shipping 3 times. So, your $100. dead fish just cost you well over $200. LFS around these parts don't give guarantees, your just out the orginal price of the fish.

As far as the statement about shipping with heat pack and proper temperature then you must not be aware of how these animals get to the US. In some cases, the livestock is in containers up to 35 hrs plus, where some etailers can ship door to door in a lot less time.

Actually, I am very aware of how these animals get into the county. I also know that Sun Pet and Apet (among others) get animals in, ship them in the same bag, on the same day flown all over the county and trucked to where ever in the back of a van. I don't buy from LFS that use these whoresalers.

I'm not the average, uninformed hobbiest going around buying fish and corals with blinders on!!! I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S *** ABOUT THE PRICE, I care about wether it is aquacultered, tank raised, wild caught, blast fished or net caught. It matters to me. And I think it matters to most hobbiest.

 

[buddy620]

These boards "regulate" etailers far better than any state employee could "regulate" a brick and mortar shop.

So true!

Bag several in one bag, saves water=weight=freight costs.

If I were you, I would find another place to buy my livestock from as I have never received any livestock with more than one animal in a bag unless it was snails or crabs.

Would dare say that most of these etailer are hobbist that have started their own business and in most cases know what they are doing as in some of the LFS you have this kid selling to newbies and has no idea what he/she is talking about. Have experience this myself a few days ago when I was listening to this so called sales person giving some bad advise to this person that was looking for some educated answeres.

True, with etail you get to pay shipping 3 times. So, your $100. dead fish just cost you well over $200. LFS around these parts don't give guarantees, your just out the orginal price of the fish

So I bought my fish from a Lfs 70 miles away and it died hours after I placed it in my tank. So am I am going to have to drive another 70 each way to get a replacement!!!

In most every case a LFS get their livestock in and sells it sometimes in minutes of placing it in their tanks. Then the buyer takes it to there home and places it in their tanks. Talk about STRESS! Most etailer receive their livestock and quarantine before shipping out again. Whoms the better in this case?

 

[Anonymous]

Geez people, we know theres good etailers and bad LFS's to boot. The bad etailers do FAR more damage to LFS's, they even hurt the good etailers. If you take ALL the good etailers and joined them at the hip, they'd still not come close to what a cetain MAJOR etailer does in revinue. BTW, most the good etailers are smaller operations, and they do tank their animals unlike the certain BAD MAJOR etailer I'm talking about. Funny thing is, they (MAJOR etailers) sure stay clear of the boards, posting that is. Dang etail trolls, come on Kevin, lets talk etail vs. LFS, join the party. Lets hear from the horses mouth.

 

[desertreef]

Just my humble opinion but in order to stay alive in today's reef livestock market we all have to think out of the box. Etail businesses are not easy and there is much more overhead than it seems the 'brick and mortar' purists are aware of. There are many premium online vendors who operate out of an actual retail store and these are the business that stand the best chance of surviving in the long run. If Etail livestock was as lousy as some assert, it would create a boom market for the local LFS. Fact is, Etailers have raised the standards, improved availability, quality, and driven costs down for the individual hobbyist. Bottom line is: take care of your customers in person and/or online and they will take care of you

 

[dacarlson]

Just my two cents….. I am always reluctant to post here but here it goes. I have been in this business off and on since 1978 +-. My feeling is whether you are etail, brick & mortar, garage based, basement based, the more the merrier. The more outlets, the more interest is generated in the marine hobby which benefits all of us. No matter what we say, these types of businesses are here to stay. The good ones will make it and the bad ones will not. We live in a free market society. I know that I will never capture 100% of the business, but I do the best I can, to get as much as possible.

As a business in a non-metropolitan area I have been hit hard in dry goods sales. I believe JamesW said only 30% buy off the internet. In my area that is a big cut from my sales. I don’t blame any of my customers for buying where they save money. I bite my pride and treat them the same as my loyal customers. It does pay in the long run. I personally find very little competition from the live good etailers, but then I carry a large selection. As desertreef said, “in order to stay alive in today's reef livestock market we all have to think out of the box.” we need to find a nitch and go with it. It has worked for me……

As far as media goes, I recommend any forum that educates, if that is their main purpose. That helps me in the long run. That said, I do not promote or carry FAMA which to me contains 10% info and 90% advertising.

 

[JennM]

The only complaining I've seen here, by industry types is about crappy sellers, not good LFS or good etailers. Seems that some are so anti-lfs they paint us all with the same brush and accuse us LFS types of being jealous or bitter.

Speaking for myself, nothing could be further from the truth. I've got an awesome customer base, I consider myself an accomplished hobbyist, albeit a learning one... I learn every day. I maintain tanks for customers as well as in my shop, and I've got fish in my retail system that have thrived for well over a year - they are pets now -- I date all arrivals so the customer can see how long the fish have been with me... please do not lump me into the category of careless retailers that doesn't give a rat's patootie about livestock. And really, any retailer who doesn't take one iota of care in their livestock won't be around long anyway. One can't keep spending money on dead fish.

I listen to my customers and I get in what they ask for... but in the big scheme of things, more people want LPS and soft corals than SPS, so I don't fill my system with stuff that doesn't sell. Anybody asks me for something I do my best to get it...

So I think I am well in the loop, into the 21st century and entitled to an opinion when it comes to some of the shoddy online crap that's going on.

Of course, you are preaching to the choir here. We in the industry who participate in this forum generally have a better sense of what's going on than those that do not.

Still, some of you OVER estimate the power that these boards have... you are assuming that everybody in the hobby avails themselves of the Internet for information. Not so. Many do not, in fact most do not. Also, many who do, still choose to support their LFS. Mail order can't help them when their pump craps out on a Sunday, or when they need help moving their tank, or trading in a fish...

Jenn

 

[JennM]

Petition the government to do the following.

1. Institue cyanide detection testing (CDT) on all fish entering the US. Foreign suppliers involved in the cyanide trade who sell cheap fish to scumbag stateside importers will be out of business.
2. Set minimum standards for the transport of wildlife like maximum travel time, minimum bag sizing and temperature requirments.
3. Mandate the use of the bags that allow for the exchange of oxygen.
4. Prohibit the import of impossible to keep species (the USL).

In a nutshell you have to choose between some dated, Right of Attila the Hun political/economic philosophy on the one hand, and your business success, the future of the reefs and the care of its inhbitants on the other.

Government my foot. I don't need to do that, but you go right ahead since you have time on your hands.

1. How about buying from net caught collectors in Indo and/or PI, net caught only countries? It CAN and IS being done right now.

2. Good importer/wholesalers know how to pack their livestock with care. Not so coincidentally, those are the same ones who buy from net caught suppliers.... hmmm do I sense a pattern here?

3. Can be done with breathable bags, but it can also be done with regular plastic bags and oxygen. I rarely receive a DOA and rarely have a DAA. Again, caring wholesaler, caring packer... geez, ya think there's something to this???

4. Not so long ago, most corals were "impossible to keep". Some things might be impossible for me to keep, but not for somebody else... Xenia for instance - I've had no luck with the stuff, and I've had good success with almost every coral I've tried. My friend Michael has Xenia coming out of his ears. By definition, it's "impossible to keep" for me but not for him.

While I think it's only responsible retailing to help people choose specimens based on their tank and capability, I'm more interested in the sustainability of the animal in the wild, than it's lifespan in captivity. None of them go back to the ocean, so once they are gone from there, they are gone, whether they live 2 days, two weeks or 2 decades. They aren't returning to the reef, period. To that end, I want to be as sure as I can be that the animal was taken in a way that had as minimal impact on the reef, and on the species, as possible.

As a retailer, I want my customers to succeed, so I opt not to bring in animals with a dismal survival rate. Occasionally I will bring in a challenging but doable animal, for an individual who is aware of the requirements of the animal and can provide a suitable habitat (Mandarin dragonet, for example).

You are fixated with Atilla the Hun... you've mentioned him to me several times now. Shall I liken your attitude to that of a "Fish Nazi"?

I don't need to be dicated to, neither do many many others. Perhaps some do, but IMO intevention by a government would do way more harm than good.

Jenn

 

[clarionreef]

People,
Though good for a laugh...the 4 steps mentioned all missed the mark in terms of priority in the reform of the trade...0 for 4.

1. There will be no stateside CDT instituted by the U.S.Fish and Wildlife Service. This is just a fact of life...from the USFWS.

2. Regulation of bags size? Per fish species? for sm, med and lg?
Regulation as in a legal requirement??? Too animated w/ laughter to comment more.
Maximum travel time? [ As if importers generally shoot for the 'longest' flight we can find...}
Temperature requirement? By all means...let the whole planet stay at 76 degrees all year round, day and nite.

3. Mandate the use of breatheable bags? Huh?
Are we kidding here? They're too thin guy! You can't ship angels and triggers, butterflies ot tangs in em!

4. Prohibit species that the 'would-be prohibitors' can't keep. Gee whiz...thanks to the unpopularity of coral feeding butterflies, they are the only chaetodons left on many reefs!
No one should speak of prohibiting anything they cannot pronounce. If you think you are conversant in the subject...go on and educate us on the net...by all means!

We need funding for training and net supplies. This is what saves reefs. Business reforms can go on forever but there will not be a luxury to contemplate them if we don't get to the heart of the matter and the area of most critical concern.
The coral reefs that people say they care about are offshore from the villages they show little concern about.
Villages are where the fisherman come from and the ones who directly impact the coral day to day w/ their collecting practice. They can kill em or they can spare em.
Isolation from this fact, cultural ignorance, fear of hot tropical places, racism and aversion to the poor... does not make much of an excuse. If you can't hang with the locals and get the locals to change...you're not going to change anything at all.

The real work is in the villages. Chatting about it 8 thousand miles away about esoteric and trite stateside remedies is not going to go very far.
Netcaught fish are available from both Indonesia and the Philippines now. Why not support their dealers them and make them stronger?
Steve

 

[zbt]

JennM, maybe your store and business practices are different than the average reef store I have been to, but most are deplorable in stock and knowledge yet keep going year after year so your statement that the bad ones don't survive is not true in my personal experience in regard to brick and mortar stores---my LFS is a perfect example, year after year for the past 10+ years I have stopped in and see dead fish, salt creep everywhere, algae everywhere, no display tanks for the new hobbyist to aspire to, and the most miserable specimens, and they just keep kicking along--I see folks buying stuff there everytime I visit! On the other hand, the folks that buy online do tend to frequent these boards very regularly and the etailers are subject to brutal critiques on most boards and the bad ones die quickly. IMO, the LFS gets the new hobbyist or casual hobbyist and many of the etailers tend to cater to and capture the experienced hobbyist looking for stock and equipment that the LFS does not carry. Most LFS do not sell many SPS and so there is an online market, most LFS do not have a good stock of high end dry goods and thus as hobbyists become more sophisticated in their hobby they tend to venture toward the net. This is where many LFS miss the boat. An anology would be photography, the beginner goes to the local camera shop and is fine with the low end overprice camera sold at most small stores--again limited stock, overpriced, and poor knowledge, jsut like the LFS. Then as the photograper gets more sophisticated they go on the net or the very few knowledgable specialty shops, same is true with reefkeeping and the LFS vs. etailers.

As you said JennM, you don't carry some SPS and I assume higher end equipment because there is no or limited market for you, well is that a self fulfilling event? I'm not picking on you, just an observation on my part. I think if LFSs became more educated on high tech equipment, set up some really great display tanks--not like most I see with algae and salt creep---then maybe they will appeal to the type of customer that tends to go to the net and buys that equipment and livestock there. Instead most LFS are happy selling cheap Indo leathers and polyps and never venture into other corals or the equipment needed to keep them and thus open the door for the etailers. If there was not a demand then the etailers would all dry up, sure many are dreaming hobbyists on a shoestring that have no business sense at all and its easy for them to set up "shop", but ya know most of these are weeded out quickly--just check out the vendor experience forum on RC and see how these types get bashed out of business quickly, so the ones that do a good job remain and are a thorn in the side of the LFS as evidnced by the initiation of this thread. Just as in photography, there are enough folks into both hobbies that there is enough business for the local store and the etailer, I just think the smart brick and mortar can capture more folks going to etailers if they did their job better and educated themselves and cared a bit more on image and quality products---generalization?-yes, but sadly most often true--again, go to half a dozen LFS and tell what you see for reef selection in both dry goods and livestock.

 

[JennM]

Well I don't entirely agree with you, but let's look at a few things...

Algae... I battle it. I've got wicked green cyano in my FO system. What can I say, I like to feed my fish However, I do clean it regularly (although some days you cannot tell!) but the FISH are all fat and healthy. What would you rather see? A bit of green cyano and fat sassy fish, or clean sterile tanks with emaciated fish? Sure the ideal answer is pristine tanks with fat fish.... but I haven't been able to find any qualified help at a reasonable wage.

Everybody wants PhD service at minimum wage price... I'm not a PhD... heck I'm just a hobbyist-gone-extreme but I'm reasonably knowledgable and I work for free, so that's as good as it gets

Etailers... how do you know what their tanks look like? Anybody can clean up a tank for a photo-op, but what do they look like every day? You take it on faith. How do you know that the entity you are buying from is the entity that is packing and shipping for you? Sure some of the small etailers get to know their customers but for the BIG one(s) like Gresham is referring to, you are an account number and shipping address. They couldn't care less if you even have a tank to put the critter in when it gets there.

I have a nice 120-g display... my husband's and my "personal" tank, we moved specimens from home since we're at the shop more than home anymore. It serves me well to sell tanks - many people buy saying, "I want that" (pointing to the 120).

I've got a huge FOWLR display in the works too...but that's a couple of months off before there's anything in it, I think.

High end equipment... hmmm well it depends on what you define as "high end". I try to use all the stuff I sell, and give an honest opinion of it. If I haven't used it myself, I qualify it with that, and provide any feedback I've been given. I don't carry what I consider to be junk, but that's all subjective, isn't it?

As for big-ticket items like MH lighting systems etc., I bring them in at competitive prices for those who want them.

I laughed recently... I sold a small tank setup to a young man - - a 60 cube. We discussed lighting options, and in my opinion, for what he wanted to do, MH was probably the way to go, either lone MH or combo with PC. Then we talked price. Well that was out of his budget, so HE opted to order compact fluorescent fixtures that I had on special. I obliged and delivered his tank, accessories and compact fixtures.

THEN he goes to an online BBS and talks about what he got, and the "stupid LFS" gets tarred and feathered because "they" sold him junk.... :roll:

He never mentioned that the LFS attemtped to sell him the "right" thing, or that the price was in line with online... simply that was what was sold to him...

Only half the story, really, hmmm?

The reality is, MOST hobbyists don't want to fork out the MONEY for the best stuff (and best is a subjective thing too...), they want cheap. IMO it is better to have mid-range equipment that people will buy, than high-brow, high dollar stuff that will sit on a shelf forever. Sorry but that's just business, plain and simple. Toss the responsibility back to the CONSUMER, please. I'll order in anything and everything that somebody wants, and I'll do it with a smile and a fair price.

I've got 2 SPS colonies coming in from a vendor's "see it first" page... the customers see it, email me and I get it in for them.

IMO the Internet is a great tool for the brick and mortar store. I've got a weekly e-newsletter that brings 'em in from all over the state and beyond.

I really don't think I'm so unique. Here in ATL there is a plethora of good stores. When I lived in Ottawa there were a few good ones too. It only takes one good one to raise the bar across town.

Jenn