Ecologically Sustainable Yield - Report

[mkirda]

This little quote should end the discussion for a while:
"This species can also be found as part of the intestinal microbiota of other animal species and as a free-living microbe in both water and soil.
{snip}
However, at present, the origin, pathogenic mechanisms, and host range of the white pox disease isolate (PDL100) are unknown and under
investigation."

From:
The etiology of white pox, a lethal disease of the Caribbean elkhorn coral, Acropora palmata

PNAS  June 25, 2002  vol. 99  no. 13  8727

Work is still on-going and as far as I am aware, the origin of PDL100 has not yet been determined.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,
I know of no fish larvae that spend years drifting in the ocean.

Indeed, recent research suggests that larval fish actually don't randomly drift, spread passively by ocean currents. There is increasing evidence of "local retention" of larvae (see work of Warner for instance) and that larvae have strong behavioural capabilities that allow them to choose their own destiny so to speak - see work of Stobutski, Job and Meekin on swimming, vision and hearing respectively.

The fact that local retention is common is one of the reasons that fish populations are much more vulnerable to overexploitation than previously thought.

In a review of coral disease in the Caribbean (http://globalcoral.org/rapid_spread_of_ ... n_cari.htm), the authors conclude that presence of coral diseases is generally NOT correlated to human activities with the exception of black band disease - found in areas with more pollution.

No evidence that diseases are found spreading with human sewage throughout the Caribbean in even the most remote areas away from humans .... the disease that you're referring to - the Elkhorn white pox is associated with bacteria found in human and pig guts (as you say) but the researchers have not linked it to a human source and nor do they indicate it is found in remote areas.

Sewage is subject to dilution the same way cyanide is ;-)

What was your source?

Blue hula

MY SOURCES ARE THE MANY HUNDREDS OF YEARS OLD BRAIN CORALS ,WHICH ARE BEING ATTACKED FOR THE FIRSTIME IN A CENTURY........? WHY NOW ?yOU THINK ITS OVER FISHING , i THINK ITS LAND BASED INDUSTRY.......WHICH INCLUDES DEFECATING .........

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk, While I agreed with you that there are problems of nutrient pollution and most probably bacterial contamination in the Florida Keys, the main problem is overfishing. Dr. Jerald Ault of the University of Miami published a paper in the US Fisherey Bulletin several years ago that demonstrated that most species of grouper and snappers were overfished. The link between reduced fish abundance from bacterial contamination that you suggest has not been demonstrated.

Peter Rubec

What link is there between coral desease and snapper populations?.......By the way I went fishing in FLA this Thanks Giving......and the boat caught more fish then I have seen in twenty years .........And Im talking bigfish... huge chicken snappers and Greys ! The party boats have been doing better in the last five years then ten years ago.........so the idea that snapper, red bass or grey groupers populations are down is un-founded.........I fished off shore an least once a month for twenty years from 1972 to 88.......and its the schooling fish that low in numbers today in Fla not sportfish.............Do you also think the giant red tide in the Gulf of Mexico is from over fishing ........What fish are even low in number in the CArribean?

 

[blue hula]

MY SOURCES ARE THE MANY HUNDREDS OF YEARS OLD BRAIN CORALS ,WHICH ARE BEING ATTACKED FOR THE FIRSTIME IN A CENTURY........? WHY NOW ?yOU THINK ITS OVER FISHING , i THINK ITS LAND BASED INDUSTRY.......WHICH INCLUDES DEFECATING .........

The difference is Kalk, that I quote peer reviewed research papers. You just spew rubbish and continue to do so in the face of evidence offered by a range of people. And when you get backed into a corner, you shift topics. You said sewage is devasating corals throughout the Caribbean even in remote areas. There is no evidence for that so then you come back with "but some are in trouble". Bob and weave ... bob and weave. it is tiresome and makes an informed debate impossible

Blue hula

 

[Fredfish]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Go Kalk go!!

I really do enjoy these posts. Its not often you can get your entertainment so nicely mixed in with your hard science.

Fred.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Why are the 1000 year coral dying now? Why this time in the past thousand years? if its NOT run off and sewage.?........................ Is it rap music? Is it George Bush ? ........how about the lack of liberal talk radio? You say its NOT sewage and run off ............. and you still stand by the idea that fishing causes corals to contract disease? BUT NOT SECOND HAND FECES? .......Have you heard about the African dust theory? is that from cyanide or food fishing? .......................I find it odd that last month you argued that food fishing with cyanide and dynamite is not causing reef fish to disappear in the Pacific. But now you are holding fast to food findhing being the cause of reef fish disapearing in the Carribean? ..........

 

[Kalkbreath]

Also do you realize that fish populations are rebounding ........even though fishing pressure has increased? thats because polution restrictions have increased greatly in the past ten years..........?

 

[mkirda]

Why are the 1000 year coral dying now? Why this time in the past thousand years?

Kalk,

This is the problem with arguing with you.
You have an idea of the issue, but it is too fuzzy to really pin down.

Let me explain a little about White Pox.
It is a bacterial disease that affects one species of coral, and one species only- That is Acropora palmata. While A. palmata is slow growing, I suspect that there are absolutely zero colonies that are 1000 years old. They are also not brain corals as you claimed in one of your earlier posts on this crappy subject.

A. palmata is an interesting coral in that it does reproduce as a broadcast spawner, but locally, most of the specimens are produced by vegetative fissure... Fragging, if you will. So in all locales, most of the A. palmata colonies are typically all the same coral or small group of corals.

The bacteria that cause White Pox are found everywhere- in the water, in the soil, etc. It is similar to the Vibrio sp. they think causes RTN in that sense. Similarly, colonies that are not stressed do not seem to be as susceptible to it as colonies that are stressed.

This is important as when a particular colony does get it, it can fairly easily spread to other nearby colonies. Each will be in a similarly stressed condition. Most of the stressed colonies are nearby areas with rather large human impacts. Is it fecal matter, or is it road run-off that causes the stress? Remember the bacteria exists in the marine environment anyway, fecal matter or no fecal matter. Frankly, I suspect more that it is accumulated stress that allows the bacteria to gain a hold rather than introduction of a bacteria that already existed in the environment anyway.

Now, is it possible that an especially virulent strain evolved in the human gut and was introduced via water treatment plants or septic tanks?
Sure, it is possible. Is it likely? At this point, it doesn't appear that we have enough evidence to support this conclusion. More work needs to be done to determine the origin.

That pretty much is the synopsis of the PNAS article, plus some other digging I have done. I should thank James Cervino publicly for pointing me to some of the latest research on the subject.

Hope it was useful for all.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

There are quite a few other species of coral being attacked by disease in the Caribbean ..........I am referring to the giant brain corals scattered throughout the Atlantic {I cant recall the correct name} But I know someone who does .......I think he has been following this thread ......but not participating {does not what to aid the enemy}....{me}.........

 

[Kalkbreath]

galleon..........just might be the most knowledgeable person one the web ..............concerning coral decline in Fla and The Carribean......The white pox coral disease gets the most airplay ........due to its connection to human poop.............but it is hardly the only illness effecting the hard corals.............I say hard corals because the soft coral populations are at record levels ..........they like poop!

 

[mkirda]

The white pox coral disease gets the most airplay ........due to its connection to human poop.

And air, and water, and soil...

It's EVERYWHERE!!!!

 

[Kalkbreath]

The white pox coral disease gets the most airplay ........due to its connection to human poop.

And air, and water, and soil...

It's EVERYWHERE!!!!

So you are suggesting that it is "air ,soil and water " that is new to the 1000 year old corals..........this is the first time in a thousand years that the Diplora corals has been expose to air ? Or are you thinking its the first time they have been expose to water? I dont think so............But I do think you might be on to something with the Soil part of your statement :wink:

 

[mkirda]

So you are suggesting that it is "air ,soil and water " that is new to the 1000 year old corals..........this is the first time in a thousand years that the Diplora corals has been expose to air ?

No, I'm suggesting that there ain't no living 1000yr old Acropora palmatas. And I'm suggesting that white pox doesn't affect Diploria species. And I'm suggesting that the bacteria that causes white pox is found everywhere, including in the air, in the water and in the soil. And in nightsoil, as you seem to be so fond of crap jokes....

Did you actually have anything more to add to this topic?
You are repeating yourself at this point.
And still not a single relevant citation in sight...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

So you are suggesting that it is "air ,soil and water " that is new to the 1000 year old corals..........this is the first time in a thousand years that the Diplora corals has been expose to air ?

No, I'm suggesting that there ain't no living 1000yr old Acropora palmatas. And I'm suggesting that white pox doesn't affect Diploria species. And I'm suggesting that the bacteria that causes white pox is found everywhere, including in the air, in the water and in the soil. And in nightsoil, as you seem to be so fond of crap jokes....

Did you actually have anything more to add to this topic?
You are repeating yourself at this point.
And still not a single relevant citation in sight...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Do you have any explanations as to why the air soil and water are only now attacking the Giant Diploria corals .......... Why ,At this time in the last Millennium? If the Redwood threes in Yosemite,all of a sudden started to die off ..........would this not point to a dramatic recent change in their history......during the last thousand years? Ps there is a one thousand year gap between the oldest trees, The Gereral Sherman three and The GriZzly giant three are one thousand years older then the other two thousand plus trees in the parks......?I find this odd.?............... It was not until the 1980s that coral disease rapidly took over the corals in the Carribean.... even though fishing pressures have actually decreased and fish populations increased...........?

 

[mkirda]

Do you have any explanations as to why the air soil and water are only now attacking the Giant Diploria corals .......... Why ,At this time in the last Millennium? It was not until the 1980s that coral disease rapidly took over the corals in the Carribean.... even though fishing pressures have actually decreased and fish populations increased...........?

1) I've given you explanations. You have to actually read the posts, Kalk.
2) It was not until the 1970's that anyone recognized that there was such a thing as 'coral disease', and it wasn't until after that time that people actually started studying it. This approach is a logical fallacy- Like saying that DNA didn't exist until it was discovered in the 1950's. Of course coral disease was around before the 1980's. It is just that no one recognized it for what it was.
3) Diploria species are not under attack from white pox.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

The Majority of the 200 to 1000 year old giant brain corals have died..........something killed them that has not attacked them for for at least five centuries.............you feel its over fishing including aquarium collection.............The people reporting on why Jamaica no longer has ish swimming about is because ...........of fishing ...........And that the Algae overtaking the living coral is also from over collection of food fish..........Algae does not overtake reefs without an increase in food levels ........rapid algae growth is not a natural event in the Caribbean. There are not even that many herbivorous fish in the region? How many tangs can you list? now how many tangs and other herbivores can you list in the Pacific? when over collection of predators happens there is a following increase in the number of prey items {less fish being eaten} It is only when the food supply runs out that the herbivore population crashes But there has never been a recorded boom in herbivore populations? Also what happened to the other herbivore populations? Tiny crustaceans and algae blennies are not collected as food ........with all the extra algae to feed apon ,why did the tiny herbivore populations vanish? There has to be something else effecting the health of the reefs in Jamaica and the Caribbean. Simple minds see less fish and they assume someone collected them all.........Once again, Just like in PI ,Australia and Florida...........the real killers are being set free.........while the wrongly accused stands ready to be punished for a crime they are not responsible for.........

 

[mkirda]

The Majority of the 200 to 1000 year old giant brain corals have died..........something killed them that has not attacked them for for at least five centuries.............you feel its over fishing including aquarium collection.

You are wrongly putting words into my mouth.
I never stated this- Show me a post where I did.

What I have been doing it arguing a limited point, showing scientific evidence that over-fishing has been demonstrated to be one of the causes of reef decline.

THAT IS ALL!

You have steadfastly refused to believe this, throwing every argument you can conjure against the linkages that science has shown. I have argued that increased predation via fishing, combined with the sudden catestrophic loss of urchin populations across the Caribbean, led to an increase in fleshy algae cover. Reefs that were 95% coral/coralline algae and 5% fleshy algae have reversed percentages- and are now 95% covered in fleshy algae. This sudden equilibrium shift has made the existing corals compete against fleshy algae, a battle that they will lose. These stressors alone are enough to wipe out the stony corals without some comcomitant increase in Floridian fecal matter which you have never demonstrated any way! Funny how your argument rests on a single crux which you have failed to even address...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

The Majority of the 200 to 1000 year old giant brain corals have died..........something killed them that has not attacked them for for at least five centuries.............you feel its over fishing including aquarium collection.

You are wrongly putting words into my mouth.
I never stated this- Show me a post where I did.

What I have been doing it arguing a limited point, showing scientific evidence that over-fishing has been demonstrated to be one of the causes of reef decline.

THAT IS ALL!

You have steadfastly refused to believe this, throwing every argument you can conjure against the linkages that science has shown. I have argued that increased predation via fishing, combined with the sudden catestrophic loss of urchin populations across the Caribbean, led to an increase in fleshy algae cover. Reefs that were 95% coral/coralline algae and 5% fleshy algae have reversed percentages- and are now 95% covered in fleshy algae. This sudden equilibrium shift has made the existing corals compete against fleshy algae, a battle that they will lose. These stressors alone are enough to wipe out the stony corals without some comcomitant increase in Floridian fecal matter which you have never demonstrated any way! Funny how your argument rests on a single crux which you have failed to even address...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

.......its the pollution that, just like in our reef tanks fueled an algae bloom..........and raised the bacteria levels to unprecedented levels....(not seen in 1000 years ie. the century old corals are the "Smoking Gun }}................................ Just because people were fishing at the same time they were craping and causing run off to seep into the ocean , does not mean a direct connection exists........I am sure the Jamaicans were also smoking weed and dancing to Disco at record levels in the 1970 and 80s as well , but that does not mean that Jamaicans being high on weed and doing the "shuffle"caused the reefs to die off.?................But then again , the smoking of weed and all that extra exercise from dancing to Saturday night fever ........would cause an increase in food intake by the partying islanders and this would lend to more fishing and food production demands........and of course an increase in defecation.......So yes one could say that Donna Summer personally was responsible for the reef decline in Jamaica..................................................But I would not be that someone.

 

[mkirda]

......its the pollution that, just like in our reef tanks fueled an algae bloom..........and raised the bacteria levels to unprecedented levels.

Really? Are you certain? Where is the evidence to back you up?
Show the world *anything* that shows that water treatment plants are spewing more nutrients into the water than before.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

......its the pollution that, just like in our reef tanks fueled an algae bloom..........and raised the bacteria levels to unprecedented levels.

Really? Are you certain? Where is the evidence to back you up?
Show the world *anything* that shows that water treatment plants are spewing more nutrients into the water than before.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

The Atlanta water department .......has been fined by the US Government every singe month for ten years straight.....for dumping raw sewage into the Chattahoocee River ..........this river empties into the Gulf of Mexico ............secondly the river is cloudy and brown from land costuction runoff almost every day of the year..........but twenty years ago it was crystal clear every day of the year .......The same goes for the St. Johns River in Jacksonville Fla..........I could go on and on naming hundreds of river systems in the USA that are in the same condition .........And these rivers are not in the shape they are from "OVERFISHING"