Ecologically Sustainable Yield - Report

[mkirda]

The Atlanta water department .......has been fined by the US Government every singe month for ten years straight.....for dumping raw sewage into the Chattahoocee River ..........this river empties into the Gulf of Mexico ............secondly the river is cloudy and brown from land costuction runoff almost every day of the year..........but twenty years ago it was crystal clear every day of the year .......The same goes for the St. Johns River in Jacksonville Fla..........I could go on and on naming hundreds of river systems in the USA that are in the same condition .........And these rivers are not in the shape they are from "OVERFISHING"

Show me the DATA, Kalk. This is worse than worthless.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

If the Redwood threes in Yosemite,all of a sudden started to die off ..........would this not point to a dramatic recent change in their history......during the last thousand years? Ps there is a one thousand year gap between the oldest trees, The Gereral Sherman three and The GriZzly giant three are one thousand years older then the other two thousand plus trees in the parks......?

The General Sherman Tree is a Sequoia located in the Sequoia National Park. It isn't a Redwood tree and it's sure not located in the Yosemite National Park. Sorry Kalk.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Yes I know ....{thats why I said parks }."Red wood " is a slang ........like "pine tree"............I have been there many times......its even more odd that only one tree in each park is 1000+ years older then the other thousand trees surounding them ..........Oh and Kings Canyon next to Sequoia is the best kept secrete in the USA...

 

[clarionreef]

EDIT: ooops- just noticed this is Steve account--

Nope, sorry, Devils Post Pile is the best kept secret. Your talking about myback yard Kalk. Kings Canyon is nice, but not as hard to access as areas in Devils Post Pile.

Gresham

 

[Kalkbreath]

Yes, that area is nice.........and you dont get to sea it without working for it.........{Long hike} But they sure lost alot of trees in the Mammoth area .....{damn bugs}......I visit Convict lake almost every year, Mono lake , Bodie, Tioga pass ......I grew up in Southern CA......plan on hiking from Convict lake aross the ridge to back side of Yosomite.......next year.......Who knows.?Maybe we will come face to face one day in the area? You will know its me by the unique stench of cyanide.......which flows through my vains!!! :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

So you crawl outa under your rock and go hiking and fishing? Sounds like the unibomber!

 

[Anonymous]

algae dont grow unless excess nutrient is added.........

Wrong. Algae is constantly growing on the reef due to regeneration of inorganic phosphorous from reef substrates. Its growth is kept in check by flushing of a certain percent of the organic material produced by the reef that regenerates the phosphate (which keeps it to a limiting concentration to a point), and, more importantly, by the grazing of herbivores, which keep in check the algae that is fueled by the concentration of phosphates that is being regenerated.

Can you Name one species that eats the species which this story claims to have smothered the live coral?

Diadema antillarum consume fleshy algae without question.

Its the runoff and sewage which causes the Algae to overtake the reefs

Only on very rare occasions does anthropogenic eutrophication kill reefs. Most often, it's when physical flushing of organic material weakens or ceases that reefs get into trouble with overgrowth. The algae take advantage of the regenerated nutrients, and the herbivore population can take some time to adjust their carrying capacity to fit, but often, thanks to lack of appropriate numbers of herbivores in the first place, this doesn't happen, when it does happen however, the corals die whether they are overgrown or not, since many species cannot tolerate the concentration of organics that build.

]Name one site in the Caribbean where the Diadema sp. populations are anywhere near the pre-1983 levels? I'll give you a hint: It ain't Florida.

It ain't anywhere, really.

Then tell me why the populations are not returning............There is plenty of algea and plenty of male and female urchins to make babies.......But the pollution is acting like a spermacide and an anti-Viagra and not allowing larva to mature

Wrong again. The D. antillarum are perfectly viable. Their population has not yet regained half of its carrying capacity, where reproduction rates are maximized. Right now the existing individuals have lower incidence of successful fertilization after spawning due to space apart. Eventually, enough of them will exist that they are close enough together to maximize the rate of population expansion/incidence of successful fertilization. Pick up an ecology textbook and do some reading on population curves.

even in the most intense herbivore collection sites in Hawaii {yellow tangs along the Kona coast} there is no evidence of increased algae growth.......

There have been several papers published on Kaneohe Bay alone regarding its overgrowth of algae due to removal of herbivores.

Fecal counts and bacteria killing the coral are not from over fishing........There is a big difference between stating a coincidence and demonstrating a direct link .........Just because disco music was popular in the 1970s the same time that the reefs were declining does not make it a contributor to reef decline........At the same time Jamaica's reefs were experiencing decline so were reefs all over the Caribbean, even in remote and uninhabited regions........even the Fla Keys suffered the same coral decline and algae blooms .....and very few herbivore fish or urchins have ever been collected in US waters

Check your dates. Caribbean reefs began to have increased incidence of disease as a response to the pathogens brought over by sub-Saharran African dust in the 1980's. Thanks do desertification of grasslands, the mass and density of the dust being brought over to the Caribbean during the summer months skyrocketed. These dust are loaded with pathogens, including the already infamous seafan killer, Aspergillus sydowii. I've seen the photmicrographs myself.

You also contradict yourself here. You claim that sewage and pollution are responsible for all this ambiguous reef decline, yet you also know that the declines happened in areas that are completely unaffected by pollution. Think about that one.

Herbivores (fish, urchins, etc.) are also frequently collected in Florida waters.

The "fecal" bacteria, Serratia marcescens, found in the white pox etiology of Acropora palmata are not necessarily fecal in origin. The enterobacteria in question is ubiquitous in decaying matter, and an infection would depend on the weakness of the host from other stresses.

Why is it that there are huge areas of algae covered reefs in the keys and yet very few tangs or urchins around chewing down?

Desertification of grassland Subsaharran Africa and increased total mass and density of imported iron and pathogen rich dust.

All that tells me is that Floridian fecal matter is unlikely be the source, and that the bacterium is likely all over the Caribbean

It is, and its found in all sorts of decaying material or wounds. It's an advantage taker.

MY SOURCES ARE THE MANY HUNDREDS OF YEARS OLD BRAIN CORALS ,WHICH ARE BEING ATTACKED FOR THE FIRSTIME IN A CENTURY........? WHY NOW ?yOU THINK ITS OVER FISHING , i THINK ITS LAND BASED INDUSTRY.......WHICH INCLUDES DEFECATING .........

It's neither. Land based industry doesn't exist in all the locations where corals are being attacked by pathogens with increasing frequency. Neither does overfishing. The only thing that does is dust-bearing atmosphere.

I am referring to the giant brain corals scattered throughout the Atlantic {I cant recall the correct name} But I know someone who does

The true giant brains are Colpophyllia natans. There are three other common large brains, Diploria labyrinthiformis, D. strigosa, and D. clivosa. None of their pathogens have been identified as Serratia marcescens, the so called "fecal bacteria". In other words, as mkirda said, they do not have white pox.

The white pox coral disease gets the most airplay ........due to its connection to human poop.............

The white pox disease is not connected to human feces. Connected to a species of enterobacteria that takes advantage of all decay situations and is ubiquitous, yes.

I say hard corals because the soft coral populations are at record levels ..........

No they aren't.

Do you have any explanations as to why the air soil and water are only now attacking the Giant Diploria corals ..........

Now I'm repeating myself, and therefore it is time to end this post: skyrocketing mass and density of atmospheric dust, loaded with viable pathogens, being delivered to the Caribbean in the 1980's.

 

[Kalkbreath]

algae dont grow unless excess nutrient is added.........

Wrong. Algae is constantly growing on the reef due to regeneration of inorganic phosphorous from reef substrates. Its growth is kept in check by flushing of a certain percent of the organic material produced by the reef that regenerates the phosphate (which keeps it to a limiting concentration to a point), and, more importantly, by the grazing of herbivores, which keep in check the algae that is fueled by the concentration of phosphates that is being regenerated.

Then why did not the remaining herbivors like snails crabs emerelds or tiny non food fish like algae blennies...... increase in population with the lack of competition? ie removel of{herbivor fish} and the lack of predator fish ? And why does algae not over take my reef tank even though it contains no fish or herbivors? Are you suggesting that my tank has less nutrients then a natural ocean reef water ?

 

[Kalkbreath]

.

Then tell me why the populations are not returning............There is plenty of algea and plenty of male and female urchins to make babies.......But the pollution is acting like a spermacide and an anti-Viagra and not allowing larva to mature

Wrong again. The D. antillarum are perfectly viable. Their population has not yet regained half of its carrying capacity, where reproduction rates are maximized. Right now the existing individuals have lower incidence of successful fertilization after spawning due to space apart. Eventually, enough of them will exist that they are close enough together to maximize the rate of population expansion/incidence of successful fertilization. Pick up an ecology textbook and do some reading on population curves.

Then why do species like the tiny hermit crabs rebound so quickly from almost extinction after the record freezes and hurricanes during the past fifteen years.....? When I see groups of twenty urchins in the keys ......how many baby urchins can twenty parents produce over ten years?

 

[Kalkbreath]

It's neither. Land based industry doesn't exist in all the locations where corals are being attacked by pathogens with increasing frequency. Neither does overfishing. The only thing that does is dust-bearing atmosphere.


The true giant brains are Colpophyllia natans. There are three other common large brains, Diploria labyrinthiformis, D. strigosa, and D. clivosa. None of their pathogens have been identified as Serratia marcescens, the so called "fecal bacteria". In other words, as mkirda said, they do not have white pox.

Why do you think that only African based soil or dust can import or harbor bateria and disease? Whats lacking in the runnoff from good old American rivers ? And I undrstand that the white pox disease is not whats attacking the brains. but what is? The white pox was only discovered after years of research .......who is to say that when the verdict is in on the other corals that its not Floridian in origin....Its not from overfishing , and to conclude that its just a coincidence coral around the carribean started dying the same time algae began to increase , is to ignore everything we have learned about our reef tanks......

 

[Anonymous]

Then why do species like the tiny hermit crabs rebound so quickly from almost extinction after the record freezes and hurricanes during the past fifteen years.....?

They don't. You're making things up, plain and simple.

Why do you think that only African based soil or dust can import or harbor bateria and disease? Whats lacking in the runnoff from good old American rivers ?

Are you really that dense? I already explained this in my last post. The diseases are showing up THROUGHOUT THE CARIBBEAN, in many places where there is no runnoff. We know the amounts of dust being delivered to all these areas has skyrocketed. There have been several papers showing that any runnoff in the Florida Keys would be buffered by seagrass. No American rivers deliver material to the reef system in the Florida Keys. The Everglades do no even deliver water to them.

The white pox was only discovered after years of research .......who is to say that when the verdict is in on the other corals that its not Floridian in origin

White pox has been known about since its initial appearance. The etiology was only even attempted just last year. So no, it was not discovered after "years of research."

And why does algae not over take my reef tank even though it contains no fish or herbivors?

It will, given enough time. So you really don't know anything about reef aquariums either, colored me surprised.

And I undrstand that the white pox disease is not whats attacking the brains. but what is?

Several different diseases. Go look them up for yourself.

I am done with this thread. Kalk, your ignorance is truly disgusting. I tried to explain things to you, but no one can apparently change your mind about the foundationless nonsense you for some reason believe.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Then why do species like the tiny hermit crabs rebound so quickly from almost extinction after the record freezes and hurricanes during the past fifteen years.....?

They don't. You're making things up, plain and simple.

Oh !But they have , several times ..... ask any of the long time collectors......

Why do you think that only African based soil or dust can import or harbor bateria and disease? Whats lacking in the runnoff from good old American rivers ?

Are you really that dense? I already explained this in my last post. The diseases are showing up THROUGHOUT THE CARIBBEAN, in many places where there is no runnoff. We know the amounts of dust being delivered to all these areas has skyrocketed. There have been several papers showing that any runnoff in the Florida Keys would be buffered by seagrass. No American rivers deliver material to the reef system in the Florida Keys. The Everglades do no even deliver water to them.

There is plenty of silt comming out of the gulf and across the keys , set on the old seven mile bridge as the tide is going out and watch it flow by! Thirty years ago this was not the case. The water of the Carribean and the Atlantic flows great distances , the currents bring not only warmer water up from the south , but colder water down from the panhandle of Fla. You really think this is the first time in a thousand years that African dust has blanketed the Carribean? Why is it only now killing the corals?

And why does algae not over take my reef tank even though it contains no fish or herbivors?

It will, given enough time. So you really don't know anything about reef aquariums either, colored me surprised.

That means you dont think export of nutrients is possible ? How much time are we talking about ? Ten thousand years? There are captive systems going on twenty years now ......and those tanks dont have a dilution factor of 10, trillion like the reefs...Nothing turns a reef tank green faster then extra nutrients ........I think your experiences with public aquariums may have given you the idea that all captive reefs turn green one day . But there are a lot of hobbyists that would disagree.

And I undrstand that the white pox disease is not whats attacking the brains. but what is?

Several different diseases. Go look them up for yourself.

The question is why ? Not what? The topic of this post , is that over fishing has lead to the reefs of Jamaica and other places in the Carribean turning green and all fish vanishing? Do you feel this is true?

I asked you to join this discussion because I respect you and your background...........You dont have to respect me.......but I ask that you please continue to participate in the debate.....

 

[Anonymous]

You asked for it.

Nothing turns a reef tank green faster then extra nutrients ........I think your experiences with public aquariums may have given you the idea that all captive reefs turn green one day

Wow, personally attacking my skills as an aquarist. For what its worth, I culture corals for a research laboratory. We know what we are doing. Our tanks do not turn green. Nothing turns a reef tank green faster than extra nutrients, "faster" being the key word. The way closed systems are run, they will have algal growth: their export does not match import, and that means a net accumulation. Tell me, do you ever have to clean algae off your glass? I can't believe I'm even arguing such an asanine point...

Oh !But they have , several times ..... ask any of the long time collectors......

They haven't. I am close friends with several collectors in the region.

There is plenty of silt comming out of the gulf and across the keys , set on the old seven mile bridge as the tide is going out and watch it flow by! Thirty years ago this was not the case. The water of the Carribean and the Atlantic flows great distances

You really don't know dick about oceanography either, which doesn't surprise me. When Flagler built his railroads, and the engineer corps canalled the Everglades, ALL EXPORT TO THE KEYS REEFS WAS STOPPED. Water no longer followed its drainage pattern from the Everglades to Florida Bay. This lack of turbidity is what allowed the staghorns and elkhorns to take over the boulder-morphed true reef builders in the first place. The elkhorns and staghorns are not the historically dominant species that they became during the 1900's. The water that moves under the seven mile bridge does not come from the Gulf. It comes from Florida Bay. The only water from the Gulf that reaches that area comes from the loop current (your "cold water from the panhandle", which is neither cold, nor does it go as far north as the panhandle, or even the Gulf dead zone or Mississippi plume, for that matter).

Have you ever tested nutrient levels in the loop current? I have. They are oligotrophic. The sparse phytoplankton community that exists relies on new nitrogen fixation by a very special cyanobacteria called Trichodesmium, because nutrients are so sparse. The only time phosphate is even detectable is at night, since UV photodegradation of the molecule is ceased, and even then its at quantities under one micromolar. Do you know what the visibility in the loop current is? Last time I was out during a research cruise, for about a month, in 10 - 12 foot seas, it never went under 200 feet.

The silt that flows under the seven mile bridge depends on when you are there. Some days it will be crystal clear, other days it won't be. Its been this way for as long as the keys have been above sea level. That all depends on weather factors, just like visibility on the reef. This silt has no impact on the reef; it's flushed away, just as it has been for the last 10,000 years.

The question is why ? Not what? The topic of this post , is that over fishing has lead to the reefs of Jamaica and other places in the Carribean turning green and all fish vanishing? Do you feel this is true?

You ASKED 'what' diseases they had. And I already told you why. YES without a doubt overfishing and removal of key species affects algae growth on reefs. This is a routine ecological experiment in my department. You remove some predators, and others take over. Read a book on ecology.

You really think this is the first time in a thousand years that African dust has blanketed the Carribean? Why is it only now killing the corals?

OF COURSE NOT. The dust has been fertilizing the Amazon rainforest in the winter for thousands of years. The tradewinds aim for the Caribbean in the summer, and South America in the winter. If you actually read my posts before you start yapping out of your ass, you would see I already told you that the mass and density of dust being delivered has SKYROCKETED since before the 1980's. We look at limestone cores and know exactly how much dust has been delivered per unit area for every summer on geologic record for the area, so we know it has skyrocketed, it isn't just a guess. Now maybe your few brain cells can piece together why this means disease incidence has gone up. We don't know that it has just now begun to infect corals, because no one was looking before the mid-70's.

 

[mkirda]

Galleon,

Thank you. And hat's off to your posts.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Ad van Tage]

You [ i.e. Kalkbreath ] asked for it.

........................
You [ i.e. Kalkbreath ] really don't know dick about ______ either,
........................

If you [ i.e. Kalkbreath ] actually read my posts before you start yapping out of your ass,

........................

One can only hope that after several GALL(e)ONS of pure and unadulterated "listerine" the Kalkbreath halitosis has been cured; both the oral and anal kind!!!


Galleon, ol' Doc, thank you for taking the time to pump such great "medicine".



"Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea...
Joy to you and me..."

 

[Anonymous]

Oh !But they have , several times ..... ask any of the long time collectors......

You really don't know dick, do you?

Ah, Marietta, Georgia - second only to Montana in coral reef research.

:lol:

 

[Kalkbreath]

And it doesnt disapoint you Galleon that all this research has led nowhere?what answers have been learned in all this research? Galleon , Why are the 1000 year corals dying now? The diseases have been around as long as Africa has been dusting...? Whats the second contributor? Why are there sudden increases in algae growth in the keys like 1998, even when the fish populations remained the same? Why When the majority of herbivores in the Caribbean are tiny blennies, snails and crabs.....Few tangs......and are NOT collected by man.......do scientist insist {like the article this post is about}that it is food fishing that has led to all fish disappearing fish and increased algae growth...? How does removing their predators and having more food to eat cause algae blennies to vanish?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Oh !But they have , several times ..... ask any of the long time collectors......

You really don't know dick, do you?

Ah, Marietta, Georgia - second only to Montana in coral reef research.

:lol:

The last large hurrican to hit the area , knocked out almost all the tiny blue legs in the keys...{galleon was still in diapers}.....the following spring after tha storm ,only very tiny crabs were to be found.....{a new generation} I think it was 1997 or 98 ? What ever year the song "I get low down , but I get up again ...you never can keep me down ....."Pissing the night away " ......that was the song during a New Years eve party on Marathon island in which the issue "why are all the blue legs so tiny " came up in conversation ......it was determined that the storm the past year had decreased the adult population . Why or how I dont no for sure ........but I do know there were NO large bluelegs to be found....and I was there.

 

[Ad van Tage]

...............Why or how I dont no for sure ........but I do know there were NO large bluelegs to be found....and I was there.

Kalkbreath, another shot of listerine???

Hey, just because YOU were there and observed, doesn't make that the facts that should be reported as being "across the board".

Your or anyone's solitary observation is worth squat - forgive me - , unless it can be measured in a proper fashion, at appropriate intervals.

Heck tonight when I looked outside there was NO SUN... That was the truth at that instant here. But claiming singular and solitary observations as a trend is just not on.
It's like taking a boat to an MPA, jumping overboard and saying "Geeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! All is well 'cause *I* seeeeeeeeeeeee a fish".

You might wanna come back next day, jump again and shout: "Man this sucks!!!!!!!!!! I see NO fish".

Etc. etc.

Of course none of this has anything to do with diapers, nor with New Years on Marathon Island.

Well I'm almost out of anti-halitosis-juice now...

 

[Kalkbreath]

There were write ups about the event on several websites run by Fla fish and wild life........Thats were I came upon the conclusion {by others } that it was the effects of the storm ........I noticed the absence of large crabs myself in the field ......When I asked local authorities they offered the theory......and I confirmed it on the Web .........I will continue to look for any old sources .......I am not sure why you have chosen this issue to challange? When it is so easy for me to prove the event with one old web page?