Etail/AMDA

[nanocat]

Look at it this way, if the policy doesn't change, AMDA has effectively completely offended a potential member. I know if they returned my check that I wouldn't ever be sending it back.

Speaking as a customer with no horse in this race, I completely agree with the point that Mary is making here. IMO, to be fair and back up the concept that this is being taken to your membership for "discussion" and not presented as fait accompli, you had three options.

1. Put a moritorium on ALL new memberships until the issue is decided by your membership.

or

2. Accept checks from those with $50, decide the issue, announce the policy, and do not renew those members who fall outside the criteria as they expire in a year.

or

3. Accept the administrative burden of announcing that there were issues pending which could limit future memberships, and therefore were only going to issue quarterly memberships at $12.50 until decided.

I understand your rational for wanting to have potential members who you "think" will not fit into the new scheme of things excluded, but by doing so, you are NOT leaving it up to your membership, you have already acted.

Mary makes the point, and no dancing around the issue clouds it IMO.

It was stated that a check was returned, therefore you've acted at least once.

 

[MaryHM]

If AMDA is set up to be representative of the brick and mortar retailer, what reason would an etailer have for wanting to join?

Since the original question was this:

What are the benefits that current AMDA members are recieving, they they will be losing if they are no longer eligible for membership?

I thought it was more of a hypothetical question than a real one. I think we both know there are absolutely NO tangible benefits for a store to join AMDA. Heck, at least members used to get a newsletter every quarter- when was the last AMDA newsletter issued? Again, I think we both know why any company joins AMDA:
1. The tiniest minority (of which most resides on the BOD) believe that AMDA can be a viable organization. With every new president every 2 years the definition of "viable" changes. So basically AMDA works on a particular agenda for 2 years, not enough time to accomplish much, and then a new president comes in with a different agenda...
2. A small minority who join thinking AMDA actually might have some benefits. Pour ignorant souls!! But they quickly learn otherwise by the time their year is up, and that is why membership seems to be declining.
3. The vast majority who join to get the validation sticker.

Like I stated earlier, there are brick and mortar etailers. I also cited a few examples. I would assume their benefits for joining would be the same as any other B&M operation once AMDA actually gets some benefits. Like I originally stated, there are different types of etailers, and to paint them all with a broad "etail=bad" brush is just plain silly.


[/quote]

 

[Anonymous]

I understand what you are saying. The consequences of our actions affect the opinions of two groups opf people. Those who are current members and those who are potential members. Anytime a decision is made there will be people that do not like it and the decision to take the actions you feel necessary will always result in losing support from those whose disagree and gaining support from those who don't. In this case the AMDA felt that losing the support of potential members who were etailers was worth gaining the support of new members who were traditional brick and mortar retailers. In other words we felt we would gain more support than we would lose and the organization would be stronger because of it. On the other hand, if the memberships wholeheartedly disagrees with the actions of the BOD, they can vote to kick us all out and start over as far as I know. It's not like every membership is approved by a vote of the members anyway, the application is sent to the membership coordinator. In the case of the returned check the issue raised some questions and the BOD felt as though they were acting in the best interest of the organization and the membership. Again, if the members do not agree with the decisions, they are free to vote us out as far as I know.

 

[MaryHM]

We can dance back and forth all day, and since it's my day off and I'm on the internet working on my website anyway, I have the time. In lieu of that, bottom line question here:

Whose check gets returned if mailed in tomorrow? Any company doing etail?

 

[Anonymous]

If AMDA is set up to be representative of the brick and mortar retailer, what reason would an etailer have for wanting to join?

Since the original question was this:

What are the benefits that current AMDA members are recieving, they they will be losing if they are no longer eligible for membership?

I thought it was more of a hypothetical question than a real one. I think we both know there are absolutely NO tangible benefits for a store to join AMDA. Heck, at least members used to get a newsletter every quarter- when was the last AMDA newsletter issued? Again, I think we both know why any company joins AMDA:
1. The tiniest minority (of which most resides on the BOD) believe that AMDA can be a viable organization. With every new president every 2 years the definition of "viable" changes. So basically AMDA works on a particular agenda for 2 years, not enough time to accomplish much, and then a new president comes in with a different agenda...
2. A small minority who join thinking AMDA actually might have some benefits. Pour ignorant souls!! But they quickly learn otherwise by the time their year is up, and that is why membership seems to be declining.
3. The vast majority who join to get the validation sticker.

Like I stated earlier, there are brick and mortar etailers. I also cited a few examples. I would assume their benefits for joining would be the same as any other B&M operation once AMDA actually gets some benefits. Like I originally stated, there are different types of etailers, and to paint them all with a broad "etail=bad" brush is just plain silly.

[/quote]


I understand. The issue has basically boiled down to what to do about brick and mortar stores that also do etail. And as far as I know the answer has been as long as the brick and mortar store is the primary focus and source of income they can be members. How to determine that is what is fuzzy, which leads us to excluding anyone wiith an internet retail presence simply for simplicities sake. In referece to your comments about the agenda changing every two years based on who the president is, I agree with you, as does many of the BOD, which is precisely why we are conetemplating making these changes. Without a focused long term goal their is little reason for the organization to exist excpet to pass out $50 validation stickers. In order to arrive at a focused long term goal the membeship needs to be organized as well, and that may mean limiting the definition of "member".

 

[Anonymous]

We can dance back and forth all day, and since it's my day off and I'm on the internet working on my website anyway, I have the time. In lieu of that, bottom line question here:

Whose check gets returned if mailed in tomorrow? Any company doing etail?

As far as I know any etail only company will have their check returned. The only gray issue for the BOD seems to be how to deal with stores who do both.

 

[MaryHM]

I heard DFS has a walk in retail facility for fish in Wisconsin. Could just be an ugly rumor. Can anyone verify?

Why is the issue of stores doing both a grey one? If you have a B&M retail operation, what is the problem with shipping out animals? It's just another way of getting the animals to the customer. The same way that 90%+ of the AMDA members receive their own animals- shipping.

 

[Fish World1]

Interesting thread. I have my check written and ready to send to join AMDA. I have a website. I currently don't sell anything from it but I've been kicking the idea around of doing it. I seriously doubt it would ever be a major part of my sales, but if I could pick up a few extra sales to help pay the bills it would help. When I join an organization I don't just sit back, I become active. I don't want to spend the time if I'll be kicked out.

I guess I have 2 questions.

1. If I join and then start e-tailing will I be kicked out?
2. What is Naesco involvement in all this? He seems to be informed (or thinks he is) on the policies that AMDA is moving towards.

 

[MaryHM]

I currently don't sell anything from it but I've been kicking the idea around of doing it. I seriously doubt it would ever be a major part of my sales, but if I could pick up a few extra sales to help pay the bills it would help.

Excellent post from an excellent B&M retailer! This is the whole point. The face of this industry is changing. Whether that is for the good or bad is another horse entirely. Because either way it's changing and it ain't turning back. Internet sales are going to be a huge part of this change. In fact, that's what I'm working on today. Setting up a shopping cart system for my wholesale customers. Just like when fax machines first started being utilized by this industry, not every retailer had one. And not everyone is ready to shop over the internet- yet. But just like fax machines, I would guess that most retailers can't imagine life without them at this point. Same thing will happen with the internet in the not too distant future. Less paper, less waste, less time- WOO HOO!! B&M stores have been having to constantly find ways to compete in this changing industry (like when the big box stores started popping up a decade ago). Sticking one's head in the sand and saying all etail is bad is not good business sense. Just like Fish World, retailers should be looking for new and innovative ways to increase their customer base and sales. And if AMDA frowns upon this practice then IMO it will soon become an obsolete organization.

 

[clarionreef]

Hey now,
The policy is still evolving but it stems from a major L.A. Wholesaler dropshipping directly to the very customers of their very own stores via the F$S on-line entity.
The dropshipper prohibition from membership is the policy most concrete right now. As far as how the rest plays out...its in dicussion and another letter is going out to the membership.
We don't have an disposition to answer instantly to the demands of non-members...but it is under debate and there will be a BOD meeting Monday nite to carry it futher.
If we decide to exclude futher more species of the e-tail sector...so be it. If not...ditto. It'll be up to the vote.
However...since there are several different kinds of livestock delivery companies evolving, there nothing wrong with the dropshippers & non storefront e-tailers forming their own meaningful organization.
If there is a storefront...it may well be considered a B&M retailer. If there is a garagefront...perhaps not. Who knows...its up to a vote...as usual.
Steve
PS. Now my own personal opinion may be another story. I'm in AMDA for the environmental mission...and I find the whole "How to sell more MARINE animals cheaper thru the internet movement disturbing. Its not as simplistic as producing more guppies and swordtails to meet a rising demand.
But...thats a minority opinion. Clearly dealers and hobbyists have a lot more passion for fish selling then insuring the trades future.

 

[dizzy]

DFS asked for their check back when it wasn't cashed. Most of the BOD feels we need to take steps to help the retailers. We sent the letter to the members and there was not one person who spoke a word in opposition. Etail is going to become a very crowded field. How many stores can compete with the 10 corals for $99.99 deals the lowballers offer. 3000 stores all etailing and who gets the sale? The cheapest, that's who. A new importer just set up in LA to go direct to the hobbyists. I think some of you are legitimizing a process that will come back and bite you in the ass. AMDA needs some time to work out the details so I suggest that just brick and mortars apply in the mean time. Mary I think your etail prices are way to low for an etailer who also wants wholesale business. Your etail prices need to be the same as high retail if you really want people to buy from you. How about your rule if a store doesn't buy from you in three weeks you can starting selling to their customers. What the hell kind of protection is that?

Wayne seems to have a good understanding of the issues. Keep up the good work.
Mitch

 

[Fish World1]

PS. Now my own personal opinion may be another story. I'm in AMDA for the environmental mission...and I find the whole "How to sell more MARINE animals cheaper thru the internet movement disturbing. Its not as simplistic as producing more guppies and swordtails to meet a rising demand.
But...thats a minority opinion. Clearly dealers and hobbyists have a lot more passion for fish selling then insuring the trades future.

Steve,

That's great. The reason I would join would be for "envioronmental mission" I don't want to join just to be kicked out. I'm not talking about trying to sell cheap, I'm looking for a broader base. I have fish and corals that have been in my store for over a year. I didn't open the store to get rich. I made 3-4 times the money that I do now when I had a real job. :wink: But the truth is the bills have to be paid and I'm going to have to either find a way to do it or just walk away and jump back in the corporate rat race. I feel I can do more for the industry by staying around.

Jeff

 

[MaryHM]

I think your etail prices are way to low for an etailer who also wants wholesale business. Your etail prices need to be the same as high retail if you really want people to buy from you. How about your rule if a store doesn't buy from you in three weeks you can starting selling to their customers. What the hell kind of protection is that?

What is "high retail"? I can't imagine we're that far under it (we're probably over it) by the time hobbyists pay shipping. The 3 weeks rule serves a purpose. To support stores that support me. I don't know of any saltwater store that goes for more than 3 weeks without placing an order with some wholesaler. Support me, I'll support you. Why should I support stores that support my competition? Competition that is selling etail a hell of a lot more than I am, even if it isn't necessarily under their own name. ALL, let me repeat, ALL of the LA wholesalers are supporting etail. I'm just honest about it. Are you ordering from any LA wholesalers, Mitch? Sure you do, to get the variety. At least I offer some type of protection to retailers- none of the others do. One thing I've learned about how this industry works is that people don't pay their bills and people lie constantly about what they're doing. Try to be honest, and you get screwed. Oh well, I guess I'll just continue getting screwed because I'm the type of person that pays their suppliers (except for 1 that sent a HORRIBLE shipment) and is honest about my business practices.

Like I stated earlier, I'm revamping reefsource.com. I'm also revamping seacrop.com to better reflect the items we sell. There's no since in trying to update the site with a bunch of stuff that hobbyists don't want because they can get it cheaper elsewhere. SeaCrop is going to be downsized. Not because retailers complain (only 2 have ever said anything about it), but because I change my business plans based on what makes sense. Something isn't working, I fix it. Something can be improved, I improve it. Going with the flow of business is the best way to stay in business. Trying to fight your way upstream against the changing tide is just going to get you worn out.

 

[dizzy]

That's great. The reason I would join would be for "envioronmental mission" I don't want to join just to be kicked out. I'm not talking about trying to sell cheap, I'm looking for a broader base. I have fish and corals that have been in my store for over a year. I didn't open the store to get rich. I made 3-4 times the money that I do now when I had a real job. :wink: But the truth is the bills have to be paid and I'm going to have to either find a way to do it or just walk away and jump back in the corporate rat race. I feel I can do more for the industry by staying around.
Jeff

Jeff,
We're in pretty much the same situation here. Things just don't turn all that well any more. I've got some killer displays chock full of great stuff that didn't sell in a reasonable time. We don't even mark our fish and corals that high and they still don't turn that well. Part of it is being in a smaller town. (50K) The only way we survive is by being a full line store. Current trends in etailing is going to kill the small independent marine stores. Recently I've heard several customers, who we have been really good to, coming in talking about stuff they bought on-line. Mostly it's lighting and skimmers, but some are buying live rock and fish too. How can you compete on variety with etailers who use the LA wholesalers as their warehouse? Competing on price will be even more difficult. I can't for the life of me understand why the wholesalers are trying to put the dealers that have made them successful, out of business. I think all the lfs bashing on the net is taking its toll also. I really think you should join AMDA. AMDA is trying to help stores like yours, not kick them out.
Mitch

Mary,
I consider high retail 3x the wholesale selling price. It is actually pretty cheap all things considered. Etail often goes 2x with no considerations made for freight or DOAs, overhead, etc.

 

[MaryHM]

Current trends in etailing is going to kill the small independent marine stores.

This is the same line I heard 10 years ago when all of the big box stores opened up (Petco, PetSmart, etc...). That they would be the death of independent stores. Stores that have been able to evolve and make a niche for themselves in this world of big box stores have survived. Those who couldn't or wouldn't disappeared. Here we are 10 years later and there are still plenty of pet stores in the US even though the big box stores have greatly expanded into almost every town in the country. Now we're at a crossroads again. This time it's etail. Independents need to evolve and find their niche. Those that do will survive and thrive. Those that don't will disappear. Jumping into the etail market themselves may be one of the ways these stores can evolve and continue to compete in a rapidly changing industry. Creating a co-op to garner greater buying power may be another. I already do the "buying power" thing occasionally with my customers. It's called preorder. Everyone tells me what they want in advance, I order it, hold it like normal, then ship it. I'm not overstocking on things customers don't want and the retailer gets a hefty discount (usually in the area of 20%). Win-win.

 

[dizzy]

Jumping into the etail market themselves may be one of the ways these stores can evolve and continue to compete in a rapidly changing industry. Creating a co-op to garner greater buying power may be another.

I'd really like to know how many marine livestock stores are making any real money with etail. I remember hearing JT complain about how cutthroat it was before he went to SDC. Sure a few will be able to find ways to compete, but if everyone jumps in it is really going to get down to who is the cheapest. If your making so much with yours, then why the need to tweak the formatt? It just doesn't make any sense for a hobbyists to buy from an expensive retailer/etailer in the middle of the country, when he/she can buy from an importer with great variety and less freight in LA. If the wholesalers don't help the retailers there won't be very many out there on the front lines getting people into the hobby. At some point it just doesn't make any sense to do all the work getting people setup, only to have them stolen by deep discounters. I lived through the big box invasion and I expect I'll survive this. Personally I'll probably just get out of selling marine fish before I do the etailing thing.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

The reason I won't consider going into etail is simple. I don't feel that it is fair to make my customers compete with people across the nation for the quality stuff that I work hard to bring in. I get a nice fish in that a regular customer would want why should it go to someone in Idaho who happened to check the site first? And I figure that if people in Athens haven't wanted a fish for six months, chances are no one on the web will either, unless I lowball the price. Lets' face it, the average lfs has the exact same stuff that the etailers do, I find it difficult to believe that spending the money to get market exposure in the huge vast world of the internet will be worth selling niger triggers for $12.00. The only way etail makes sense is to cherry pick LA, or drop ship, or have your own wholesale facility. Buying fish from a wholesaler in LA, paying the freight, housing and feeding the fish for a month and then selling it on the net for pennies mkes absolutely no sense to me from a retail perspective. And with the big players in dry goods what chance does a little independent store have of breaking into that market without a huge up front investment in advertiseing and exposure?

 

[MaryHM]

If your making so much with yours, then why the need to tweak the formatt?

Where did I say I was "making so much"? Etail doesn't support my business, and I doubt it ever would. It does what it was originally intended to do- allow me to not have to mark up my wholesale prices to reflect increasing freight costs. The markup the hobbyists pay are what allow me to keep my wholesale prices where they are. When freight goes up almost $.50 per kg, someone has to pay for the increases. The retailers sure don't want to, and if I had to increase my prices there's no way I could compete with the big wholesalers. Remember Mitch, I'm probably the smallest wholesaler in LA. It has its advantages, but it also has its disvadvantages as well. I'm tweaking the etail end because there are things we sell like hot cakes (nano packs) and things we don't sell hardly anything of (basically everything else). It doesn't make sense for me to put the time and effort into uploading all of those products if no one is buying.

The thing I find so funny in all of this is that even when I only bought net caught fish and only sold wholesale (not allowing any walk ins and carefully monitoring the incoming "business licenses"), I still had the same level of support from retailers as I do now. Most retailers are just like the hobbyists- they want the largest variety at the cheapest price. Period. So I tried to solely help the retailers, and after the first big freight increase where I had to up my prices slightly, most balked and whined. They'd rather buy cheaper stuff from the big wholesalers who sell to every tom, dick, and harry with a business license and allow walkins to cherry pick everything than support a wholesaler who has been a retailer and was trying everything possible to support retail stores 100%. Name one other wholesaler who has gone to the lengths I have to support retail shops for the first 4 years I was in business? And I'm still way more careful with who gets wholesale pricing than anyone else I know.

 

[JennM]

The ONLY way I can see the Brick and Mortars making any headway versus etail, is if the Brick and Mortars STOP supporting those wholesalers who undermine them. PERIOD. They have been biting the hands that have fed them for long enough.

I did this... and I'm doing fine. Others can too, if they CHOOSE TO. I would think it wouldn't take very long for those "riding both horses" to pick one if it came down to it, but nobody's willing to bite the bullet for the few weeks/months it would take to accomplish it.

It would push a lot of support to those wholesalers who DO have our backs, and it would effectively prompt some changes at those who are selling out to white coats and jobbers, and people with a business licence to repair photocopiers... :roll:

But every time this type of discussion comes up we hear the same excuses... variety, availability... panders to the drop shippers like it panders to the cyanide trade.

Jenn

 

[clarionreef]

...and if we join the cyanide trade, we can have all that variety and availability.
Is that what people want?
In polite company...no.
Truthfully and when no ones lookin...obviously yes!
If unenlightened self interest is all it takes to build a belief system then pretentions of higher ethics have lost their place on this forum. What now distinguishes one from the PETCO brass or the head of the Manila exporters cartel? Afterall....they justify all they do in the name of paying their bills.


Steve