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MaryHM

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If that is the case then a store by the name of "Saturday Marine" that is open to the public from 12-3 on Saturdays in an out-building that is attached to their garage would qualify as a B&M.

I think you're twisting what I'm saying in order to villify me further. No, I don't think a store attached to someone's house is a B&M. I'm talking about actual storefronts in industrial/retail space. Say a store opens up in a strip mall and decides to only be open on Fridays from 2pm-5pm and Saturdays from 12-3 because their research has shown that they can lower their payroll, electricity, etc... and optimize profits because those are the hours when most of their customers are out purchasing. This same company is available by phone for 45 hours a week, and is able to provide service that way (most service issues are discussions anyway. People don't bring in their tanks for consultation). What would be wrong with that? I have been a retailer. I have worked the 60+ hours a week. It's hard work and it SUCKS for more reasons than one. I wouldn't go back to retail in a million years. But on the odd occasions when my husband and I have had momentary lapses of sanity and thought of opening another store, the first thing we discuss is how it would have LIMITED HOURS. Maybe not just 3 hours a week. But more like 3pm-6pm 4 days a week and 12pm-5pm on Saturdays. Would that not qualify as a B&M? What are the minimum hours necessary to have the doors open to the public to be a B&M?

Lets assume they pay their taxes, have a business license and pay their suppliers. They also have a phone number in the yellow pages under PET SHOPS.

This is Brick and Mortar at its finest. Do they qualify for wholesale purchases from MSI at the same price as a store in New Jersey that is open 50 hours a week with a weekly payroll exceeding $1000.00? Wonderful.

So now I can't just have new customers fax in business licenses and yellow page ads. Now I have to ask them how many hours they're open? Longer hours=better retailer? Do I have to structure my pricing on a tier basis dependent upon the number of hours the shop is open? Heck, I'm already asking for more than most wholesalers ask for yet I seem to be treated as the bad guy here. It's funny. None of the other LA wholesalers get on here and talk so openly. Why do you think that is? Because they're smarter than me! That's why! Kind of reminds me of the retailers legimate complaint about hobbyists ragging on LFS and praising etail because they can't see the dead/sick fish at the etail facility. Rag on me because I'm out in the open, but by all means continue to purchase from those with less protection for retailers. :?
 

MaryHM

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That is our point exactly. A brick and mortar store has too high of an overhead to depend on a niche. They *must* sell yellow tangs and bubble corals....The hobby and the wholesalers, and the industry can not exist as etail only.

Maybe my wires are loose and I'm not able to properly communicate via the written word anymore. :wink: I have NEVER said that B&M have to depend on an etail niche or that the industry should go to etail only. PLEASE do not put words in my mouth. I fully understand the role of B&M retailers in this industry and that is why I have fought so hard to protect them and will continue to do so. (see rant above) What I am saying is that if B&M can utilize etail as an addition to their business and to grow their customer base, what is wrong with that???
 

MaryHM

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Rover,

I think the misunderstanding my have stemmed from my quote:
Morgan doesn't need to sell bubble corals and yellow tangs via etail.

Please note that I am saying he doesn't need to sell bread and butter via ETAIL. I have no doubt that he carries those items in his B&M store. Just the same, I am focusing my etail on a niche, but will continue to have the bread and butter in my wholesale facility. If B&Ms can find a side niche in etail- or any other arena- and make it profitable then I applaud them. B&M is tough. The toughest job I've ever had by far! If those retailers can find a way to increase the bottom line by creating a niche market, then more power to them. And I think it would be a shame for AMDA to cast them aside.
 
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Say a store opens up in a strip mall and decides to only be open on Fridays from 2pm-5pm and Saturdays from 12-3 because their research has shown that they can lower their payroll, electricity, etc... and optimize profits because those are the hours when most of their customers are out purchasing.

It is highly unlikely that a strip mall would lease space to a store that was only open six hours a week. Not only that the CAM charges and taxes would kill you.

What I am saying is that if B&M can utilize etail as an addition to their business and to grow their customer base, what is wrong with that???

It doesn't make sense to do it. In order to ship a coral or fish in, house it and ship it out and compete with soneone who is picking it straight up from a wholesaler, you are selling it for pennies above what you paid. The only way etail works is if you are producing (as your examples suggested). AMDA has no problem with etailing what you produce in house, we have a problem with a) stuff going straight from the wholesaler to hobbyist, b) stuff going from wholesale to retail and then reshipped somewhere else.

a) because it undercuts the store fronts.
b) because it doesn't make any sense to do so.

FWIW I have no problem with etailers that want to sell direct to the public, or wholesalers that choose to sell to them. This is America and that is a legitimate business. Just don't expect me to be happy about or support those wholesalers who are selling direct to my customers. We dropped a large dry goods distributor because they were selling to a garage/ghetto business at below list wholesale even though they didn't do enough volume or been open long enough to deserve that kind of discount. This same guy then went to all of our service accounts showing them the wholesale prices on the items and then sold things to them at list wholesale. It's a matter of supporting those who support you.
 
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Anonymous

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Please note that I am saying he doesn't need to sell bread and butter via ETAIL. I have no doubt that he carries those items in his B&M store. Just the same, I am focusing my etail on a niche, but will continue to have the bread and butter in my wholesale facility. If B&Ms can find a side niche in etail- or any other arena- and make it profitable then I applaud them. B&M is tough. The toughest job I've ever had by far! If those retailers can find a way to increase the bottom line by creating a niche market, then more power to them. And I think it would be a shame for AMDA to cast them aside.

I have no problem with that. The problems arise when all B&M stores must find a niche in etail in order to keep their storefronts open, and to remain profitable. Not all stores are going to be able to do etail, much less capture a niche. What happens when a company with the marketing power of the good docs starts promoting pod packs, nano packs, or aquacultured corals? Maintaining market share on the net is even harder than doing so in B&M. The efforts of AMDA are all about protecting the long term viability of the industry by protecting (andimproving) the storefront retailers. We aren't trying to squelch etail, as I'm sure there are some quality ones out there. They just don't fit into our organization any longer. None of us are so naive as to think that etail will ever go away, or that the net isn't the most powerful marketing tool ever devised, we are simply resolute in protecting our way of doing business.

I'm reminded of some of the discussions we have had dealing with MAC and the LA wholesalers, and how difficult it is to get them in the same room, much less agree on anything. The reason for that is they are all competitors. The same principles are guiding AMDA, by having the group open to everyone, it would be impossible to get any one to set their ill will aside in order to discuss any real issues (especially if the nations largest etailer were a member, we might as well be Petco). By eliminating one of the groups we will be able to be a bit more organized (at least in theory). Those who choose to pursue etail as their livelihood are free to do as they wish and set up as many representative groups as they desire.
 

MaryHM

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It is highly unlikely that a strip mall would lease space to a store that was only open six hours a week. Not only that the CAM charges and taxes would kill you.

Good grief. Please take an example for what it is- an example. Let me now change my wording to say "If a retail operation owns its own business space in a retail area and decides to open for 6 hours a week..."

AMDA has no problem with etailing what you produce in house

And here is the crux of the discussion. Trying to figure out what AMDA is going to accept and what they aren't. So if someone is breeding clownfish, baggais, etc.. and ship them out, that's fine. If someone is aquaculturing coral, that's fine. It's just not fine if they purchase from a wholesaler, bring it into their retail store, and resell it via the shipping process instead of face to face? I'm just interested in discussing the details. I know AMDA hasn't made a decision and I'm not "bullying" them into one as has been suggested. Just laying the complexities out on the table. It's fun to discuss something other than cyanide and MAC every once in a while!

It's a matter of supporting those who support you.

I've been avoiding it, but the question begs to be asked. For Mitch and Glenn. If you don't support wholesalers who are involved in undermining the LFS via etail or big box support, then who do you buy from? Can't be any of the large LA wholesalers because they all support etail. Can't be from the big Florida wholesalers- they do too. Can't even be ORA since they heavily support etail and big box. So I am curious where you are finding these wholesalers who share your ideals 100% and strive so hard to protect retailers.
 

MaryHM

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We aren't trying to squelch etail, as I'm sure there are some quality ones out there. They just don't fit into our organization any longer.

It's a shame to hear that, as it was my understanding that some of the AMDA BOD was interested in having Morgan Lidster on the BOD next year. You will not find a more educated, dedicated, hard working, caring individual than he. But I guess he doesn't fit in.
 

naesco

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Mary with respect, it is not necessary to use large bold print to make a point and no one is trying to villify you.

Further, the NEW AMDA BOD and some members have on a number of occasions advised you tht the whole issue is under consideration and that they are 'polling their membership' as it is the proper thing to do.

If you are concerned about the direction the NEW AMDA is going, you should be.

Although there will no doubt be member qualitfication grey areas, there is no doubt in my mind that your companyand companies like yours, will not be allowed membership.
Wholesalers who etail is the reason why this whole issue is under consideration.

The NEW AMDA will purchase their critters from their own wholesaler or wholesalers that do not etail. It does not make business sense to line the pockets of those who compete with you.
 

MaryHM

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Although there will no doubt be member qualitfication grey areas, there is no doubt in my mind that your companyand companies like yours, will not be allowed membership.
.....The NEW AMDA will purchase their critters from their own wholesaler or wholesalers that do not etail. It does not make business sense to line the pockets of those who compete with you.

And it makes no sense for me to give support to retailers who don't purchase from me. I am different from other wholesalers in that I am careful who I sell to- be it hobbyist or retailer. I make sure hobbyists aren't within 50 miles of a retailer that supports me because I respect my wholesale customers. I have absolutely no interest in competing with or undermining retail stores that have built my business into what it is today. I also have absolutely no interest in being an AMDA member. Been there, done that. If they can actually organize themselves into something that will benefit B&M stores, then I'm all for that. 100%. As I stated earlier, I'm just interested in discussing this topic because it's a nice diversion from the regular fare the forum offers up.
 
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Anonymous

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And it makes no sense for me to give support to retailers who don't purchase from me.

And no one said it did. You support those who support you. What does it matter what those who don't support you do, or if they don't like you, etc? You can't please em all, so you spend your efforts on those who will give you the largest return.
The fact that some storeftonts don't like the fact that you sell etail also (regardless of your concessions, or policies) shouldn't change anything, unless you feel asthough you need their business. Then it becomes a matter of giving customers what they want. If they aren't customers they don't matter. We have people asking us all the time if we have any snakes. We never sold the snakes when we did have them so we stopped. Now I don't care when people ask because I know they aren't a customer, they just want a free zoo. So we stopped trying to make people that aren't customers happy.


It's a shame to hear that, as it was my understanding that some of the AMDA BOD was interested in having Morgan Lidster on the BOD next year. You will not find a more educated, dedicated, hard working, caring individual than he. But I guess he doesn't fit in.

I know lots of educated, dedicated, hardworking people, but not all of them own pet stores. There has to be a concrete definition for who can be a member. This may result in excluding people who are educated hardworking and caring. But our feeling tells us that we will also attract even more people who are hardworking, intelligent and caring and who also own storefronts, so it's a sacrifice we are willing to make. It's nothing personal.


Good grief. Please take an example for what it is- an example. Let me now change my wording to say "If a retail operation owns its own business space in a retail area and decides to open for 6 hours a week..."

It was an imprtant distinction. The vast majority of retail stores have leases and landlords with requirements placed on them. Exposure (and thus hobby growth) comes at a high price. If the hobby existed in people's back yards, garages, or in the low rent section of town, it wouldn't be where it is. Let's face it, this is a hobby that is geared towards people with lots of expendable, and their are lots of things people with expendable cash can spend their money on. Whoever is the best at getting the exposure wins. (location, location, location). Storefronts make an investment in that and are thus required to pay for it There are requirements on how many hours they must be open, common area maintenance charges for the parking lots and landscaping, streetlights and street sweepers, in GA it's common for the tenant to be responsible for all HVAC repairs. Any idea what 3000 gallons of salt water does to an AC unit over a few years use? Any idea what the inside of a pet store is like when the AC stops working in 90 degree heat? All of these issues are the price that a B&M store pays for exposure within the community. The same exposure that causes the hobby to grow, and increases the amount of product being offered at the wholesale level.

It's just not fine if they purchase from a wholesaler, bring it into their retail store, and resell it via the shipping process instead of face to face? I'm just interested in discussing the details. I know AMDA hasn't made a decision and I'm not "bullying" them into one as has been suggested. Just laying the complexities out on the table. It's fun to discuss something other than cyanide and MAC every once in a while!

I agree. :)

But the issue is only as complex as we choose it to be. The simplest solution is to say no etail at all, as policing what is sold through the net will be impossible. If someone is set up to sell CB stuff, then they are set up to sell anything and we will be trusting in their integrity to abide by the rules. And as we both know, integrity isn't always at it's strongest when their is a buck to be made. It is all a matter of making the compromises that will result in the stongest group. And even there must be compromises over the compromises within in th group. None of us see the web as evil (we are on it now after all) and it can still be used an a valuable marketing tool. We use it to send out lists of new arrivals or announcements about sales and such. That way people who may be too far away to just drop in can determine when it's worth the trip and when it is not. But in the face of limited supply, I do not believe that the net should be used to further increase demand.

And we currently (or plan to) buy from two or three sources tops. None of them big LA wholesalers, (although we did get very good service from SDC). You, Steve, and Fish Heads. We are currently out of the loop as the construction of our quarantine system set us back a few weeks, and being a college town, we are extremly affected by school schedules and such. I have also heard good things about Pro Aquatix, although I'm not sure what there stance on etail is.
 

MaryHM

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What does it matter what those who don't support you do, or if they don't like you, etc?

I didn't bring this up to talk about who does/doesn't support Marine Specialties International. It's just a topic. If I thought me etailing had an adverse affect on my wholesale business, I'd stop. I'd have to raise my wholesale prices as soon as I did to make up for increased costs we've been faced with over the past 18 months. Honestly, higher prices run off more retailers than etail sales. So the answer is, it doesn't matter.

Any idea what 3000 gallons of salt water does to an AC unit over a few years use? Any idea what the inside of a pet store is like when the AC stops working in 90 degree heat?

Nope. No idea at all. My retail store was in perpetually cool Texas. We had no need for AC. ;) Facility etailers face the same situations with leases, etc...

But in the face of limited supply, I do not believe that the net should be used to further increase demand.

Want another fun discussion?? Some on here have talked about how etail increases the demand, then turn around and say that it's the B&M's that get people into the hobby and keep it going. If our concern here is increased pressure on the reefs, maybe there should be a moritorium on new B&Ms opening up since they're the ones who introduce new people to the hobby. New AMDA policy: You can only be a member if your store has been in business on or before January 2004. ;)
 
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The demand is increased not by the increase in etailer.com's but by cheapening of the price. What do you think would happen if the average salt water fish was under 10 bucks at retail?

I wasn't refering to MSI specifically, but rather to any business or organization. If AMDA thinks that excluding etailers hurts the viability of the organization, we'll stop. ;)
 

Fish World1

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Mitch,

The point about the thicker skin is well taken. You can call me whiny, greedy or even cheap, I don't care. But what I perceived as an attack on my ethics I didn't appreciate.

naesco":mbgf9gt6 said:
Although there will no doubt be member qualitfication grey areas, there is no doubt in my mind that your companyand companies like yours, will not be allowed membership.
Wholesalers who etail is the reason why this whole issue is under consideration.

The NEW AMDA will purchase their critters from their own wholesaler or wholesalers that do not etail. It does not make business sense to line the pockets of those who compete with you.

So now you're saying that if I join AMDA I can't buy from Mary? Glad I didn't send my check in yet because no one is going to stop me from buying from Mary.

I honestly hadn't looked at any e-tail pricing for a long time. I checked out DFS website and those prices aren't that cheap. For example they have golden butterfly's for $149. I've had 2 golden butterflies for over 6 months. They eat from my hand. I'm only asking $90 ea. for them and I can't sell them at that price.

.
 
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Anonymous

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Fish World, Why in the world are you listenning to neasco(wayne), he is not ANY part of AMDA, he's not a member, he doesn't even fit into ANY industry niche what so ever. This is an open forum, any one can talk, as neasco does, but that does not mean they are in any way a part of what they're talking about.

Does this mean I'm gonna get kicked off for a week now? I didn't mean to offend any one, even neasco, I just needed to make that point to Fish World.

PS. I've never heard AMDA ever say where you can buy your goods at, never!
 

Fish World1

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MaryHM":2b9afu2s said:
Direct quote from an AMDA BOD member to Wayne in this thread:

Wayne seems to have a good understanding of the issues. Keep up the good work.

Respectfully, yikes.

That's the quote that made me think someone inside of AMDA is keeping him informed.
 
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Anonymous

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Only 3 AMDA BOD members even know who/what neasco is, Steve, Glenn and Mitch. You pick out of the three who you think is informing neasco.
 

naesco

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Fish
As Mary quite correctly pointed out, I do not speak for AMDA and certainly nothing anyone here has posted implies that you cannot buy from whomever you want to.


Mary I have a good grasp of the issues here. It is really very simple.

B&M want an organization that represents them not wholesalers and etailer like your firm.

B&M want to be able to buy at competitive prices just like your firm from their own closely held importer/wholesaler or exclusively

And most certainly the B&Ms in the east and the south want the same choice and the same quality fish that the LA cartel has; not the raisons but the cherries.

The NEW ADMA gives them all of the above and more.

The NEW AMDA can enter into exclusive buying from supplies.

The NEW AMDA can tie up exclusive buying rights to certain species in certain areas. Like the fish and coral form the Christmas Islands.

I am delighted that you fully support the NEW AMDA. So do I.
 

naesco

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GreshamH":atkrb8xb said:
Only 3 AMDA BOD members even know who/what neasco is, Steve, Glenn and Mitch. You pick out of the three who you think is informing neasco.


Actually they all do. There is no need for an imformant. AMDA has been very open and correctly so.

You are correct though that most of the inside information about the inner workings of the marine ornamental industry, the cyanide cartel and as Mary put it 'industry's dirty little secrets' came from Mary Middlebrook's websites.

Let's continue to discuss the issues and butt out of the personal stuff, eh!
 

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