Etail/AMDA

[dizzy]

I think a united 1500 or so retailers would have a considerable amount of clout. Not to mention a lot more money in kitty to help effect change. You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negociate. Soon the new AMDA message will be going out to practically every retailer in the country. Ever watched a standing ovation take shape. First a few stand up and pretty soon everyone is doing it. AMDA can be 1000 times more effective if we use this cause to unite us, and then bait and switch to the field issues.
Mitch

 

[Fish World1]

...and if we join the cyanide trade, we can have all that variety and availability.
Is that what people want?
In polite company...no.
Truthfully and when no ones lookin...obviously yes!
If unenlightened self interest is all it takes to build a belief system then pretentions of higher ethics have lost their place on this forum. What now distinguishes one from the PETCO brass or the head of the Manila exporters cartel? Afterall....they justify all they do in the name of paying their bills.


Steve

Ok, so now because I want to try to e-tail a few things I've joined in the cynaide trade. Hmm, actually all I was mainly planing on e-tailing was some sps frags. That's my true passion. I'm talking about colonies I've had for years not becoming a chop shop. The market around here isn't that big for acros.

I would say at this point I'll just send a check to the net fund. I'm sure AMDA doesn't need anyone with unenlightened self interest anyway.

P.S. I've worked in the corporate world, there is a big difference in greed and trying to keep the doors open.

 

[clarionreef]

Jeff,
When I responded to Jenns post yours was the furtherest from my mind.
EVERYONE has to keep the doors open, but stocking poisoned fish while professing environmental ethics is the point of my post.
Steve
PS. Flying frags that you produce? Fine!

 

[naesco]

I think a united 1500 or so retailers would have a considerable amount of clout. Not to mention a lot more money in kitty to help effect change. You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negociate. Soon the new AMDA message will be going out to practically every retailer in the country. Ever watched a standing ovation take shape. First a few stand up and pretty soon everyone is doing it. AMDA can be 1000 times more effective if we use this cause to unite us, and then bait and switch to the field issues.
Mitch

Stay the course Mitch.
The NEW AMDA is on the right track.
Do not get bullied into making committments to anyone and certainly non-members until you have fully formulated the plan.

 

[Fish World1]

Stay the course Mitch.
The NEW AMDA is on the right track.
Do not get bullied into making committments to anyone and certainly non-members until you have fully formulated the plan.

Who's doing any bullying?

 

[naesco]

Stay the course Mitch.
The NEW AMDA is on the right track.
Do not get bullied into making committments to anyone and certainly non-members until you have fully formulated the plan.

Who's doing any bullying?

Certainly not you. What I meant to say is the NEW AMDA should take the time to formulate its mebership policy. It appears that a lot of questions are been asked that cannot be answered at this time.
Don't sweat it; take the time

 

[Anonymous]

how many suppliers will it take to keep all the amda stores properly stocked?

are there enough existing non-etail wholesalers/importers to support the amda supply demand?

 

[dizzy]

Jeff,
I'm certain neither Steve or Wayne directed their comments at you. I can tell you both Glenn and I have taken a lot of grief for defending the content of Burton's letter both here and on Reefcentral. We have been called everything from trouble maker to whiner. We knew this stance would be unpopular on the net, but we have the courage to defend our actions. You certainly need to get a little thicker skin if you want to play this game because it can get ugly at times. We simply want to level the playing field. I'm certain not one person on the BOD has a problem with someone using the net to sell something they are raising. We have to make rules and then we have to apply them equally.
Mitch

 

[nanocat]

I'd really like to know how many marine livestock stores are making any real money with etail. Mitch

I can certainly give you a local example. Fishsupply.com. I saw their ad on the net, searched the site, discovered they also had a B&M in Huntington Beach. I would never have ordered from them online (as a resident in the LA area, I don't have to...hundreds of LFS's to choose from) and paid shipping, however I did drive down and made my first marine purchases. I continue to support them (along with another 4 or 5 LFS I go to regularly).

As near as I can tell, they are quite successful as Fishsupply AND their B&M Seaside Tropical. Seaside used to be a ho-hum LFS from what my reefing friends tell me who remember it from last year. In the last 4 months they've made massive improvements in their B&M, expanding greatly, carrying SPS and clams (at reasonable prices). I would consider them one of the best in the area. I have to think that their e-tail profits helped them with that improvement.

 

[Anonymous]

But they are in LA right? Which means no freight.

 

[MaryHM]

Premium Aquatics is an excellent example of a successful etailer. In fact, they're one of the most well known ones. And they're in Indiana. Same thing with Inland Aquatics. Both run successful B&M+etail businesses. Dr. Mac is about to be B&M+etail. I've confirmed that DFS does have a B&M store in Wisconsin. Harbor Aquatics is in Chicago- B&M + etail. Tropical Paradise near San Francisco is an excellent example of a B&M which has recently started an etail division and has been getting rave reviews. Coral Reef Aquarium in Massachusetts is another good example. It can be done and IS being done by many companies outside of Los Angeles.

 

[Caterham]

Premium Aquatics is an excellent example of a successful etailer. In fact, they're one of the most well known ones. And they're in Indiana. Same thing with Inland Aquatics. Both run successful B&M+etail businesses.

So if you are open to the public three hours a week then you are considered B&M? I think that a lot of folks following this thread might disagree. I could be way off base though because I have never really asked. Some of the folks on this board are in their stores 60 hours a week and there is no need for an appointment to walk through the door. Lets clarify this just a touch shall we?

Is 3-6 hours a week considered B&M? :?:

 

[MaryHM]

Which is why I more clearly identified them with "etailer" than I did the others. They have a facility, are not dropshipping live animals to my knowledge, and are not in Los Angeles. They're what I would call a facility etailer.

 

[dizzy]

There is absolutely no evidence that etailing livestock is a feasible long term strategy that will be sustainable for our industry. I see it more as a greedy, sell all you can before it's too late type of enterprise that will hasten the end of the wild caught marinelife. Sure aquaculture can be sustained in etail, but only producers will be players. Some stores probably are doing pretty well with it, but that by no means is proof it will work for everyone. Remember when everyone thought they were going to get rich buying dot com stocks. :roll: In the 20-years I've been in the biz I've seen many a livestock wholesaler come and go in pages of FAMA. The doctors have figured out how to manipulate the system and a few other have too. I believe Marine Depot is one. There is simply no need for a bunch of stores all selling basically the same thing, like Glenn pointed out. It all comes down to price in the end.

Do these retail/etail have the same pricing for the etail that they do for the walkin? I saw a hobbyist on reefcentral reeming his local fish store for selling higher in the store than he did on his web site. If you lower your overall prices to compete with etail in your store you may need to double your volume to realize the same profit margins. If you end up being responsible for a lot more livestock being yanked from the ocean and you end up with only a little better bottom line should you really feel all that proud of yourself? I think not.

You mention Harbor Aquatics but you fail to mention that JT left and went to SDC after complaining about how cutthroat it is. I say Morgan prolly ships out more of his pods and critter starter kits than anything else. I'll say it again that I think you etail reshippers are selling out the future of our beloved hobby for your short term gain. Look what happened to Inland Reef Aquatics. They thought they could compete with the discounters and now they're gone. The same thing will happen to many of the etailers that are today's flavor of the week. The customer base that you build by discounting is the least loyal you can imagine. As soon as something cheaper comes along they are gone with the wind. Ain't that right Tom and Matt.

I believe Glenn has the right idea for the right reasons. He should be able to hang in for the long hall. I know we work hard enough as it is and taking the cherry stuff we receive, and packing it up in little boxes for ship out seems foolhardy to me. What do you do when they tell you it came in DOA? This damn internet is creating a spoiled crybaby customer base with an unsatiable appetite for cheaper and cheaper. If this is such a goldmine Mary, why aren't you blowing it out? You have a great internet presence, you have wholesale selection to pick from, and you have a good reputation for being ethical. You should be laughing all the way to the bank. I'm just going to continue to put our energies into giving our local community the best possible service we can. All we want is a level playing field.
Mitch

 

[Caterham]

Both run successful B&M+etail businesses.

You also clearly identify them as being B&M. Thats fine, maybe they are. I will ask the question again since it didn't get answered.

Does 3-6 hours a week for retail walk-in qualify as B&M? :?:

 

[MaryHM]

There is absolutely no evidence that etailing livestock is a feasible long term strategy that will be sustainable for our industry.

And there's no evidence that it isn't a feasible long term strategy either. Some would say that it would actually be less stressful on the animals to only make one stop before the hobbyist rather than two or three. I've heard that from several people. Not sure if I agree or not, based on acclimation issues. But some retail stores have horrendous acclimation procedures, so....

I see it more as a greedy, sell all you can before it's too late type of enterprise that will hasten the end of the wild caught marinelife

Could you explain this a little better.

You mention Harbor Aquatics but you fail to mention that JT left and went to SDC after complaining about how cutthroat it is.

That's not the only reason he left, and Joy is still in business.

If this is such a goldmine Mary, why aren't you blowing it out?

What do you mean by "blowing it out"? Lowballing the prices on everything to move volume? Again, I need a better explaination before I can respond.

I'm not saying that everyone selling the same exact stuff etail is a gold mine. I'm saying that stores need to find their niche. There are niches within etail just as there are niches within retail. There are niches outside of normal retail and etail that we have yet to discover. You just have to be creative to find them. It's simply another way of doing business.

Does 3-6 hours a week for retail walk-in qualify as B&M?

If they have a facility outside of their garage and are paying the same type of overhead, taxes, electricity, etc... that any other store has to pay then I would say yes. Again, it's about niches. If they've found that they can decrease their overhead and increase their profits by doing etail most of the time and having limited retail hours, then more power to them. I would venture to guess that people are lined up waiting for the store to open and they they are jam packed and busy for the entire time they are open. Makes sense. I remember when I had my retail store and there would sometimes be hours before anyone came in. I think I'd rather do 6 hours of straight, heavy retail sales than 40 hours of trickles and looky-loos.

To clarify my position here, again, I'm not saying that etail is the solution for all B&M. I'm saying that it is a new way of doing business. It isn't going away. So no matter what you do, you're going to have to face the reality that it is here and will occupy an ever-growing presence. Is it good? Is it bad? I don't know. All I know is that it IS. Business people are forced constantly to change their marketing to reach their customer base. This is just another example. It's all about niches. Find yours, and you're set.

 

[MaryHM]

A couple more thoughts....

I say Morgan prolly ships out more of his pods and critter starter kits than anything else

This is PRECISELY what I'm talking about! Finding a niche! Morgan doesn't need to sell bubble corals and yellow tangs via etail. He's found some really interesting products to offer to hobbyists that they can't normally find at their LFS. I say kudos to Morgan for seeing a market and seizing it. Same thing with Helsinger over in Hawaii (forget the name of his company). Same thing with my nano-packs. It's stuff I was throwing away because no retailer wanted it. Now I can save it. And that's where our etail focus is going- nanopacks and aquacultured corals. I'm getting out of the bubble coral/yellow tang etail market. No one wants it at the prices I sell it at. Since I'm not about to lower my retail prices, I'll just eliminate that segment and focus on my niche.

 

[MaryHM]

how many suppliers will it take to keep all the amda stores properly stocked?

As of now, one medium sized wholesaler could do it. AMDA has 50-60 members. Many are aquarium maintenance companies that don't do weekly orders.

are there enough existing non-etail wholesalers/importers to support the amda supply demand?

No. Because there aren't any that offer the variety AMDA members want.

 

[Caterham]

If they have a facility outside of their garage and are paying the same type of overhead, taxes, electricity, etc... that any other store has to pay then I would say yes. Again, it's about niches. If they've found that they can decrease their overhead and increase their profits by doing etail most of the time and having limited retail hours, then more power to them. I would venture to guess that people are lined up waiting for the store to open and they they are jam packed and busy for the entire time they are open. Makes sense. I remember when I had my retail store and there would sometimes be hours before anyone came in. I think I'd rather do 6 hours of straight, heavy retail sales than 40 hours of trickles and looky-loos.

If that is the case then a store by the name of "Saturday Marine" that is open to the public from 12-3 on Saturdays in an out-building that is attached to their garage would qualify as a B&M. Lets assume they pay their taxes, have a business license and pay their suppliers. They also have a phone number in the yellow pages under PET SHOPS.

This is Brick and Mortar at its finest. Do they qualify for wholesale purchases from MSI at the same price as a store in New Jersey that is open 50 hours a week with a weekly payroll exceeding $1000.00? Wonderful. The store in New Jersey has a niche for sure, its called SERVICE.

This is my last post on this thread. I have already learned enough.

 

[Anonymous]

A couple more thoughts....

I say Morgan prolly ships out more of his pods and critter starter kits than anything else

This is PRECISELY what I'm talking about! Finding a niche! Morgan doesn't need to sell bubble corals and yellow tangs via etail. He's found some really interesting products to offer to hobbyists that they can't normally find at their LFS. I say kudos to Morgan for seeing a market and seizing it. Same thing with Helsinger over in Hawaii (forget the name of his company). Same thing with my nano-packs. It's stuff I was throwing away because no retailer wanted it. Now I can save it. And that's where our etail focus is going- nanopacks and aquacultured corals. I'm getting out of the bubble coral/yellow tang etail market. No one wants it at the prices I sell it at. Since I'm not about to lower my retail prices, I'll just eliminate that segment and focus on my niche.

Mary,
That is our point exactly. A brick and mortar store has too high of an overhead to depend on a niche. They *must* sell yellow tangs and bubble corals. The store that get 90% of the people into the hobby must be able to stock and compete on those items, or they will stop doing it all together. If there aren't any brick and mortar stores out there creating customers by selling reasonably priced yellow tang and bubble corals, who do you think are going to be buying your nano packs and aquacultured corals in a year or two? Etail doesn't seem to understand whose back they are riding on. Ever hear the story of the scorpion and the turtle?

The turtle is standing on the river bank about to cross when a scorpion approaches him needing a ride. The turtle doesn't trust the scorpion and refuses. The scorpion points out that if he were to sting the turtle they both would drown. The turtle reluctantly agrees and the scorpion hops on his back and away they go. Halfway across the river, the scorpion stings the turtle and paralyzes him. As they are both drowning the turtle asks the scorpion why he did it? The scorpion replies, "I'm a scorpion, it's just my nature."

No matter how you cut it, etail depends on the brick and mortars for customers. Etail can stick with the niche stuff, no problem, but the storefronts deserve a level playing field when it comes to the bread and butter stuff of the hobby. The hobby and the wholesalers, and the industry can not exist as etail only.