Cyanide: What it does to the reefs

[Fish_dave]

I have to agree with Mary. I receive marine shipments every day of the week and rarely have much more DOA than Mary has listed. A major disaster for us would be in the 10 - 15 % range and that almost never happens. If it does then I am right on the phone trying to find out what happened. The only times that I can remember anything near a 50 % DOA is when the shipment was delayed and stranded for two days and came in after a transit time of over 80 hours and we still had live animals in the shipment.

I deal with both absolute net caught sources and with Philippine (suspect caught) sources. Often the DOA is higher with the net caught sources but the DAA streched out to a week or more is much lower from the net caught sources. I have Philippine shipments fairly regularly that have no (0) loss on arrival (I don't order damsels). Those guys are expert at maximizing their profits and dead fish have no profit for them. I do not have to pay them for dead fish on arrival. They have no incentive at all to send bad or dying fish. I do not understand where all the buzz is coming from in this industry about us shipping dead and dying fish around. You can not make a business case for shipping dead fish in todays market and the Philippine dealers whom I know are in this as a business not for their love of the hobby.

I stand firmly behind the net caught ideals and I think that I have done more than the average hobbyist to make net caught animals available. However I do not think that the huge gains in quality of livestock that are being promised us by uniformed suits is ever going to matierialize simply from having 100% net caught fish. Some of the worst fish that I have seen were net caught and shipped by novices with no experience.

We need to get Steve or someone else qualified out in the field doing net training and then send those fish through established channels in the fish trade to experienced exporters in Manilla. There are a lot of good experienced exporters in Manilla who will happily accept net caught fish that are of good quality. Belive me these guys want good fish because good fish make good business sense and these guys are in it for the business. Supply good fish into the system, don't try to change the whole system or you will be working with unexperienced people who will foul things up somewhere. If Steve and crew could get good fish supplied to the good exporters in Manilla I am certain that our Philippine DAA would be reduced to almost nothing. Already the Philippine DOA from some of the good exporters in Manilla are very low, with net caught fish I believe that the DAA rate should also be as low as other good net caught sources. That would really put the pressure on the net caught guys to get their DOA rate down to nothing.

Dave

 

[Anonymous]

very well said

 

[naesco]

MaryM
:roll:

Advertising is prohibited on RDO forums

 

[MaryHM]

What's the matter Waynie poo?? You don't like hearing the truth?? Poor wittle baby- can't handle hearing that I don't lose 50% of my fish. That might interfere with your blinder system of looking at things. So all you can do is accuse me (quite lamely) that I'm advertising. I speak from experience, Wayne. You speak from your...well that word isn't allowed on rdo. I think Rover will inform me if I'm adverstising. What do you think Rover?? Was that an advertisement??

This whole thing reminds me of a snippet of a Christina Aguilera song...

But you're just a little boy
Think you're so cute, so coy
You must talk so big
To make up for small lil' things
So you're just a little boy
All you'll do is annoy
You must talk so big
To make up for small lil' things

 

[JennM]

Having dealt with Mary/MSI I can vouch for her credit policy. Once or twice I had a DNR (did not receive) which were credited promptly on the next order, and I think ONCE I had enough DOA to warrant a monetary credit. Typically I'd have no DOA and at most one or two DOA on a shipment. This sort of thing is consistent with all my current sources. I have occasional DAA - I consider DAA within 72 hours of arrival and after that it's an "anomaly". Typically I lose 2 or 3 animals from a shipment within that window, but not always.

Now... when I dealt with the "big" operations, I had many more DOA/DAA. In fact, based on what I had seen working elsewhere, I built into my business plan numbers, 10% average DOA/DAA that I would absorb. And for the first year, it was that and even more... once I woke up and changed my suppliers and moved away from the mainstream, my DOA/DAA numbers fell dramatically, and my customers claiming "guarantee" replacements are nearly nonexistant now.

I won't even go there about how certain salespeople jerked me around about credits at some of the mainstream places.... but then again those were the same folks that didn't know the difference between a Yellow-Eyed Tang (aka Kole Tang) and a Yellow Tang... :roll:

I cannot speak about how many fish die en route to my stop in the chain, but I couldn't stay in business if the numbers that are thrown around, were accurate at my place. Some losses are expected but not on the scale that some of these reports would have you believe. Of course if a storekeeper doesn't know what he/she is doing, then I suppose the mortality rate can increase exponentially... but I can't see how a shop could stay in business that way.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Mary--

Posting Christina Aguilera lyrics is absolutely prohibited. No one deserves that kind of abuse.

 

[MaryHM]

LOL

 

[Anonymous]

Mary is good people!



In the words of JT STFU Wayne..

 

[Kalkbreath]

Thats what makes a 68% DOA montra so out of touch with the real world. Jen , how long would it take for you to go belly up if your average DOA was 68% ? Were talking average, that means some of your shipments would need to be 90%dead !!! lets say you have two shipments that come in at only 5% DOA ..........your next ten shipments would need to land wiith 80% DOA to average 68% . Mary , how long would you keep sending out fish to someone Claiming 68% DOA ? One , maybe two shipments . The idea that 68% of fish die during transport to the east coast is as inconsistant with Business viability as the idea that wholesalers would still ship to the east coast to retailers wanting refunds on more then half the original tab.

 

[MaryHM]

Want to know what I do with retailers who claim large amounts of DOA?? (That ironically always seems to work out to what their freight bill was). I say "Apparently we are not able to provide your company with what you need. You may want to try another wholesaler." I then proceed to give them the phone numbers of a couple of other wholesalers. It never fails that there is an order the following week with NO doa complaints. Much of the DOA claimed is to try to recoup some freight charges. Once you realize that and call them on it, they change their tune.

Rover, you may want to split all of this DOA stuff into another thread. I think it's deserving.

 

[naesco]

Not very funny Mary.
Cyanide was an issue you fought against and now you condemn experts like Dr. Rubec. You have sold out and you know it. It turns my stomach.

You spent years fighting the cyanide trade, exposing industry's dirty little secrets, condemning those who dealt with cyanide caught fish and now you defend them using self serving personal experience because the true numbers are devastating to the reefs. Very sad indeed.

No need to start a thread I will with statistics instead of self serving BS.

 

[MaryHM]

Whoa there, nelly. I'm not defending the cyanide trade. Not in the least. I still want to see the cyanide trade ended. Cyanide kills the reefs. No doubt about that. The doubt (and topic at hand) is that 50% of the fish are dying between the exporter and the retailer. I wonder who is more of an expert- someone who talks about importing fish or someone that does it?? I'm not going to get into a circular argument with you. Tell us, Wayne- how much DOA does the store where your son works at have??

 

[horge]

Wayne,

For someone who has apparently done ZERO actual work to address the cyanide problem, you have a ton of nerve to accuse Mary of selling out, or of defending cyanide-caught dealers.

Some of us walk the walk, and that leaves less time than someone like you can apparently lavish on online self-promotion. Real work also sometimes leaves less patience for the time-consuming antics of poseurs and wannabes, particularly when they attack real work and real workers.

Pfffhhh.

 

[horge]

While we're at it...

Peter's results may simply have been particularly valid at the particular time of sampling, and for the particular samples used.

If his reports and analyses are not presently reflected in States-side anecdotes of DOA/DAA, that may be an artefact of change in the trade over time since Peter's work, or simply of weaknesses in sampling... there's the issue of data incorrectly collected by third parties, then used for analysis (most studies are derivative, and if the source is tainted...)

In even ideal conditions, this won't be the first time an earnest sampling and number crunch doesn't quite square up with what's seen on the ground, and at worst it's an opportunity fior a more representative and recent study.

 

[naesco]

While we're at it...

Peter's results may simply have been particularly valid at the particular time of sampling, and for the particular samples used.

If his reports and analyses are not presently reflected in States-side anecdotes of DOA/DAA, that may be an artefact of change in the trade over time since Peter's work, or simply of weaknesses in sampling... there's also the issue of data incorrectly collected by third parties, then used for analysis.
Most studies are derivative, and if the source is tainted...

In even ideal conditions, this won't be the firt time an earnest sampling and number crunch doesn't quite square up with what's seen on the ground, and at worst it's an opportunity fior a more representative and recent study.

What a bunch of gobby-gook.
Study's are over, bud. It is time for action.
Please concentrate your efforts in setting up CDT stations, training and working with experts on sustainability issues
The days are numbered for the cyanide cartel in your country and you owe it to the fishers to get them ready for a cyanide free trade.

 

[Fish World1]

I can't remember the last time I had to file a DOA claim with any of my suppliers. I don't even keep track anymore.
This week I recieved around 100 fish with no DOA. In fact I've only lost one fish this week. It was a bangaii cardinal. It came in Monday and I lost one Friday. I would say my DOA/DAA would be under 5%. I'm going to keep track again just to see. I do know I wouldn't be able to stay in business if it was 50% or even 20%.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Naesco, The study you base you "rampant" position on .......found only 8% of tested MO fish to have cyanide present in one of the twelve month periods. Why do you feel that today in 2004 that similar findings would not be found if testing were taking place? The fish comming out of PI seem to show few signs they are poisoned ........?

 

[dizzy]

Seems like we disputed Frank Lallo DOA numbers some time ago. Like I said back then, I don't think stores give out that type of information on the phone to strangers. I'd say most stores are disappointed if DOA exceeds 5%. Hey horge is that a minature hand grenade your holding?
Mitch

 

[MaryHM]

Tell us, Wayne- how much DOA does the store where your son works at have??

Think you missed this question, Wayne.

 

[naesco]

Wayne,

For someone who has apparently done ZERO actual work to address the cyanide problem, you have a ton of nerve to accuse Mary of selling out, or of defending cyanide-caught dealers.


Mary spent many years fighting the cyanide fight, educating hobbyists about the dirty little secrets of the MO trade. She raised money for netting and kept a cyanide free fish wholesale business. She supported people like you whose interests were to reeform the industry.
But she gave up because she realized that she was banging her head against the wall and nobody was listening.
Well guess what, even though industry ignored her, a few reeformists including myself did not.
We are going to see and end to cyanide for the good of the reefs, those that earn their living from it and those that love their hobby.
It pains me to be critical of those who have in the past tried their best fought the good fight against cyanide. Many comments I ignore but to soft pedal the effects of cyanide is WRONG WRONG WRONG