Jaime Baquero":123tvwv9 said:
the only thing this bill will do is make the price of mo fish plummet for the european and japanese (and other foriegn) markets, while diverting many of the mo fishermen to go back to cyaniding for food, while impeding further any advances hobbyists here may contribute to husbandry/propagation techniques of the more difficult species kept in aquariums
but who cares, as long as we no longer 'contribute' to the collection of mo's, right ? :lol:
out of sight, out of mind :wink:
i'm surprised at you jaime, i thought you had a far better understanding of the trade on an international and commercial level :?
naesco":23xkgbn7 said:
Wayne,
The most important role has to be played by central governments in the Ph. and In., middleman/women, exporters, importers, retailers and hobbyists. The different programs in place since 1987 have had strong participation and support from funding agencies in Canada and the U.S , NGOs and fish collectors. What has been absent is the industry as such!
We know very well that the industry is not interested in tackling directly the problems it has created in places as the Ph or In. Without the support of the industry an event such as MACNA wouldn't take place. I have been wondering during the years why MACNA organizers do not pay attention and give the priority to the situation in the Ph. and In. Why they do not want to show the obscure side of the trade? I do remember that back in 98 during MACNA X, in los Angeles, they gave us the opportunity to make an excellent presentation on sunday at 4:30 pm when everybody was gone.
The future of the industry is at risk, I do not know what's the program during MACNA this year, but I guess if something is going to be discussed about the cyanide/collection problem would be in a separate room and during "other more important presentation", this issue should be the center of the conference but it won'be. Where are the industry's priorities?
MaryHM":1a5t11lr said:
Do you want some examples? Helping to fund net training courses and supplies. Other? Supplying needed material to improve holding of fish at community level. More? Producing simple guides(posters) showing fish collectors how to better handle the fish, this in their language. Other example? Simple guides about water quality. Other? Caring for the fish collectors, without them no fish.
More? Helping with funds to produce didactic material related to coral reef conservation.
More?
vitz":16ih9fiw said:
I have a very good understanding of what is happening at collection points and how collectors have been neglected for decades. I have a very good understanding of how this trade has contributed to coral reef deterioration and depletion of some species, and also a good understanding of how some within this industry are making money at the expense of coral reefs without putting a cent back.
I have been following this issue for over 15 years. The situation today is almost the same that 15 years ago, cyanide is being used, fish are poorly handled and held , mortality rates are still there, collectors are being neglected and exploited , and most important the coral reefs are being abused.
The status quo is not an option something has to be done and fast!
Jaime Baquero":2034emuk said:
Jaime I agree with you that these tough topics don't get much attention from the MACNA organizers. Everybody wants a feel good conference, which is understandable as this is also the only vacation for many in the biz. The theme of this year's conference is the same as last years. Aquaculture is the answer to all our problems. A quick look at the speakers list will confirm that. Can you believe Walt Smith is speaking again. :roll: How many years in a row now? This by far the most commercialized MACNA to date. Damn expensive too. Reminds me of the Baltimore MACNA that was nearly the last. The mood is shifting toward the shutdown of all wild harvested marinelife. I believe people will be surprised at how much support the idea will receive. The problems of the fisherfolk is far from the minds of the yuppies who rush to snap up the latest flavor of the week frag or clam. We all recognize the need for prisons and mental institutes, yet no one wants them in their backyard. Out of sight, out of mind. Shutdown the trade and the problems goes away because it is no longer our issue to deal with. It's a good plan for peace of mind, but a poor plan for the survival of the reefs. Watch how they sell it, it should be interesting.
Mitch
Jaime thank you for your post.
It confirms what everyone in industry knows but refuses to admit.
Dizzy it is not understandable that BILL 4928 is front and center at the conference. It is a major sell out by the organizers to industry.
Industry does not want what Mary calls its dirty little secret out in a large public meeting.
But, there is a responsibility for reform minded industry/hobbyist types who are going to have it raised from the floor. I would but I cannot attend this time.
It confirms what everyone in industry knows but refuses to admit.
Dizzy it is not understandable that BILL 4928 is front and center at the conference. It is a major sell out by the organizers to industry.
Industry does not want what Mary calls its dirty little secret out in a large public meeting.
But, there is a responsibility for reform minded industry/hobbyist types who are going to have it raised from the floor. I would but I cannot attend this time.
naesco":18966thy said:
So you're saying the organizers sold out the industry. :roll: hr4928 wasn't even introduced to Congress when the speakers were being lined up. No one is going to be talking about it in their presentations unless it is AMDA or Reef Central. Most people in the industry and hobby haven't even heard of it yet and that includes the organizers.
Mitch
Again , you suggest current MO harm but never actually list any? Only half as many fish are being exported from PI as last decade. Thats because overall demand is down . Not due to any fish shortages. The same hard to find fish species are hard to find everywhere. Blue face angles and large Regal tangs are few and fare between every where in the world. No export country has ever had very many to offer. These fish are rare even in areas mankind does not collect. But the real point is that the market for these fish is getting smaller and smaller every year. hobbyists dont want them . The reef tank craze has made these fish unwanted. One of the reasons reeformers like to dwell in the past data is that the current market does not support the need for reeform at all Do you really think that mandarin collectors use cyanide? Or that this fish is about to become extinct in the region? How about Green chromis or maybe scootor blennies? What about lion fish ? yes those fish do swim fast! what about Clownfish See using the currently imported fish species from PI , it become quite difficult to explain how the collection of todays fish can harm the reefs or the fish stocks? There is a reason reeformers dont explain the specifics about their claims .................They cant!Jaime Baquero":1a9gihq7 said:
Well the story was scooped here on reefs.org by Peter in early August. I doubt that was enough time to rework the speaking schedule and make hr4928 front and center as Wayne suggests. :roll: A blurb was also sent out to the AMDA members with a request for comment and none repllied. I also called Mike Maddox of PIJAC August 8th concerning the bill. He was only vaguely aware of it. 8O He said a PIJAC Alert would be sent out, but I guess they forgot about it. I believe there will be some mention of it in the upcoming issue of Pet Product News. I believe it will be a hot topic in the bar and around the water cooler at MACNA. USCRTF meeting too. I don't however believe it was added to the MACNA program unless it was very recently. Have you heard anything like that?
Mitch
Mitch
Kalkbreath":33emnd2w said:
I do not know how is the trade of MO in the States nowadays. Let me tell you that I visit regularly the stores in Ottawa, Kingston, Toronto and Montreal, the fish that I see in their displays are the most popular ones. I see more and more often fish such as Clown Triggers and Blue tangs that are not bigger than 3/4 of an inch. To me that is not a good sign.
The reality is that collectors do not find high value fish where they were abundant. One of the reasons is because overcollection, those fish were overcollected for the marine aquarium trade. Many of them died even before getting to the communities, others died because of poor handling and holding at community level. While in the Philippines I saw horrible things about fish keeping at exporters facilities, I visited almost all of them, I saw complete wipe outs and fish dumped in the garbage by hundreds. Many more jumping out of the tanks and crushed by workewrs who didn't care. The value of the fish is not an issue, they can get cheap fish by hundreds.
Now collectors go further away, away from their families for weeks, and they collect what they see and what the trade is ready to comercialize even half inch Clown Triggers and Blue tangs among others. If you do not find it disturbing you have a problem.
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