Hobbiest comments to the MAC guys.

[Anonymous]

John B and Mark@MAC,

I've seen the quality of fish and corals coming out of some of the MAC certified wholesalers and I must say they were very dissapointing. Of course what I saw were not MAC certified, but it doesn't say much for the facilitys in general. I personaly don't feel that they would or will handle the certified animals any better than the non-certified and this to me is an issue that the MAC must take care of.

I will also restate that, "I have seen MAC certified stickers on tanks in a non-certified store that only sells ORA animals." This is another matter that needs to be addressed within the ranks of MAC.

I'm here to clarify some things as MOST of what is being stated here about MAC operations in the Philipinnes and Indonesia is pure propaganda.....

If you all really cared about reeform, why don't you lend some constructive criticism instead of making what are mostly inaccurate/false statements.

I have been working here in the Philipinnes and Indo for 5 months now; and although it certainly doesn't make me an expert, I am seeing positive results from MAC's work that aren't readily apparent to all right now.

Mark

Mark,
There are many hobbiests that come to this forum to learn what is going on in the conservation/reform arena. Mostly we just just read what the others are saying or ask questions from time to time. Would you please be so kind as to clarify just what it is that "you" think have been "inaccurate/false statements." I would also like to know just what "you" have been doing for the last 5 months and what "positive results" are being made?

There has been much posted throughout this forum on several different threads about improvements that could be made to the MAC and it's programs, policys and approach to the issues at hand, but it they've all been dismissed.

Hi,Mark
Would you please point out some possitive aspects.I have made the mistake of "thinking" MAC might be ok.Man, Mac is worse than the F word here.*IMO*

Hi CF, do you mean the "F" word as in farmin? which actually takes away from the livelyhood of poor tropical coastal dwellers?

Some positive progress: collectors are being trained in: resource management, better collection techniques, and BETTER post harvest handling.... As was stated here, maybe on another thread; MAC fish have more often been sent to Europe where industry and hobbyists are willing to pay more for quality fish....

Mark

Mark, coralfarmin was asking a pretty simple question, although he didn't word his following comment very well. The truth be told, his coral farmin operation, will not hurt MO fisherman in the PI, as they do not export corals. It could, however affect those in Indo, but then again, it could also do more to save the REEFS in the long run, as in no coral harvested = no reef distruction. You didn't have to burn him. And CF, if you'll do a tiny bit of research, you'll find that they (MAC) want Mariculture to be certified too.

Certified fish have never stopped flowing from the MAC Certified collecting areas of Barangay Batasan Island and Barangay Tangarin (Clarin). I know you know that buyers in Cebu intercept and purchase these fish before they get to the MAC Certified exporters in Manila. This is an odd situation for what is supposed to be an unbroken certified chain of custody (COC) from the Philippines to the USA.

Many people know why the MAC Certified Philippine fish suddenly got intecepted from entering the American market.

The Euro thing is only one reason for the minimal supply... you know the some of the other reasons but only state the negative.

and lastly for today, (you're all going to love this one) There are now also fish available to the US again...... I could post a list but it's a bit long...

I would like to know exactly why the fish (from those areas) were intercepted, and I don't think the Euro had that much to do with it. With all the MAC certified collection areas (5), collectors (7),and exporters (10) in the PI, I'd think that there would be more than enough fish to go around.

Actually that's not true, with the way it's set up now in the PI, 7 collector groups collecting in 5 collection areas, doesn't that look more like over harvesting of the resources for those areas?

 

[coralfarmin]

Just for claritys sake Knowes.
I still am not aginst Mac yet.
I sure wish it was me in the islands instead of mark@mac.

I am just trying to understand the politics behind the industry so I can get me some grant money :wink: *JUST KIDDIN*

I have been, in the past tryin to elaborate the fact that

*WE SHOULD ALL WORK TOGETHER AS A TEAM OF TRAINED PROFESSIONALS TRYIN TO ACHIVE A COLLECTIVE GOAL*
Here is a little story why

I can remember a conversation between my step father and a diver in the early 80's who had 2 mustard lookin bottles in his hands, under the *old* 7 mile bridge.heck, all I had was a slurp gun a sein a cast net and some small hand nets

diver: "It sure is alot easyer like this, but it aint like it used to be before everyone started" implying that they keep catchin them all and there is not nearly as many anymore.(butterflies)

I really dont want that to happen to the world, now that I know what was in them mustard bottles.

btw Knowes, I knew what you ment when you mis-spelled *hobbyist*

 

[Anonymous]

Eddie, I didn't think that you were. John and Mark both made some comments that I would like answered or at least clarified. Mark also "smacked" you in the face for no reason, and I called him on that. It's one thing when you "lead up to" being beat up on, it's another to get jumped on for no other reason than your name. :wink:

If you don't want the clarification, fine........but I want it.

Both John and Mark insinuated that Steve, Peter, Mike and several posters are lying or distorting the truth, well, here's their chance to set the record straight. I don't want the MAC newletter, "It's All Good", I want the truth. MAC has had something close to 7 years to implement their fine program, yet the country in which they get their funding and salary can't even get a stinking fish? Then to find out that areas with CAMP's in place were denigned certification and that they are loosing fish in the coc. Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

 

[coralfarmin]

Thanxs

For your concern for my safety, but I feel comfortable saying "I can take care of myself".

 

[spawner]

Eddie,

Just a point of order: to be very clear, what was in the "mustard" bottles is not cyanide, it is quinaldine. In the Florida Keys anyway.

Not making any statements about the use of Q, just clarifying.

 

[coralfarmin]

Oh :?
Whats that ?
I sure tried to get some from him, so I could try to catch some tangs in the grass flats without a cast net :lol:
I was just a kid though and had no clue as to anything about conservation.
I was just havin fun. Long days in the water, and long nights camping on the beach, grillin shrimp and lobster.

 

[coralfarmin]

www.gobiidae.com

huh :?

This link makes it look ok (imo), tells you how to use it and were to get it.
Other links made it look bad like, cyanide.

Now I really am confused :? :? :?

I comprehended it said, quinaldine is the chemical of choice by "professional collectors" "with permits"
Also talked about using "clove oil & retone"

 

[spawner]

Well if you use rotenone (the purple death) you want have any live fish. I would suggest that you not use any drugs. In Florida you have to be have a permit to use Q.

We use it in the lab and in the field, it is good and bad at the same time. This all depends on who is using it, what it is cut with, and how much is used. Any drug is worse than no drugs at all.

Ecologist have used the purple death for years to "sample" streams, likes, and coral heads. Killing every fish in the area, so they could get a better understanding of what was there. You really have to watch out for those ecologist

 

[coralfarmin]

dang
Why not just get them islanders some clean "Q" ? If this is ok ?
I guess a place like the old 7 mile bridge was just a over collected spot in the early 80's, since we just drove what we called the "Land Yacht" a huge station wagon, and parked down beside it like we saw others doing, then cruised till we found good camp/dive sites

Man, those were the good old days

 

[clarionreef]

"I comprehended it said, quinaldine is the chemical of choice by "professional collectors". :roll: :roll:

Florida was rather unique in its tolerance for fry killing quinaldine and its requisite...caustic cutting agents.

None of them were professional. as only dopes use dope.
Perhaps a Filipino training mission to the keys is in order to teach the bubba crowd to use nets for blues and queens.
But alas, the days of Q are waning.
Steve

 

[coralfarmin]

Hey Cortez

I just read the Gobie site as saying that (i think :? ), I actualy thought it was cyanide, till spawner clarified that it was "Q".(not advocating "Q" here)

Man, the first time I caught a juvinile Queen as a child, with a slurp gun, was probably better than my first time with a women as a man :lol:

 

[mark@mac]

Knowse,
1.If MAC Certified organisms are not handled well and there are problems or excessive mortality, they will become de-certified and the supplier would have to work with you to resolve the problems.
2.Anyone observing a facility claiming to be MAC Certified or selling organisms as MAC Certified please inform MAC so we can take corrective action. You can send me the email.
3.There are far too many false, half true/innaccurate statements made here for me to address each and every one. In the five months I have been here (Phil and Indo) I have been working with exporters, collectors coordinators and collectors in preparing them for assessment and the certifications they have achieved. I am also working on trainings and monitoring protocol for better post harvest handling. Another area I work in is site selection of future areas we are considering working in.
4. It is unfair to say that any suggestions made are dismissed. I haven't seen many if any positive, constructive comments made here. It's ususally about what has happened in the past. MAC is evolving; certainly not as quickly as many of you would like to see, but I can tell you there are great challenges here. It has been said that 1000 collectors can be trained in 1 year. Trained to do what? collect fish? handle them properly?
I think that estimate is totally unrealistic. I would love to get suggestions from any of you.

 

[mark@mac]

Knowse and CF,

My apologies for the sarcasm in my response to CF's comments "MAC is worse than the "F" word";but I take personal offense to this as I and the MAC staff have been busting our butts trying to affect positive change in the Philippines and Indonesia which is only GOOD for the hobby and industry.

The fish were being intercepted by an uncertified exporter shipping to Europe simply because the European market pays more for quality fish. So,
what few quality MAC fish there were/are, were being exported to Europe.
Another factor here is the distance from the original MAC Certified sites and Manila and the additional shipping costs involved.

The volume and variety of MAC Certified organisms is still going to be low as the few, newly certified collection areas have very seasonal collection, along with other transportation issues which have been alluded to here in other threads. We are now working on the next round of collection areas and will be working to increase the volume and variety while continuously working to improve the quality of the organisms coming out of Philippines and Indo.

Mark

 

[mark@mac]

Steve, Horge and Mike K., or anyone else with knowledge of Philippines

With your guys vast knowledge of the Philippines, I would really appreciate any input as to what collection areas might be good to consider.

Let's get off the past mistakes and look to the future. I am here to work for the reefs, the hobby and the industry. I want to see all survive and thrive.

Mark

 

[coralfarmin]

Hey Mark

No apologies are in order to me, thanks though, I was just making a statement so the rest of us could understand what was goin on here

I personaly felt like a victim after makin comments that others thought advocated MAC here.imo

I think I am now learnin how to be a little fish & swim with the sharks :wink: imo
I dont care who makes a differance as long as they are tryin to protect our earth, in my opinion Mac gets a A for effort

 

[coralfarmin]

BTW, I would still love to have the first *MAC* certified greenhouse facility in southeastern NC

 

[Anonymous]

FWIW, I have been getting some top notch fish from a "certified" dealer. Not certified fish, but the uncertified fish from the certified dealer have been excellent.

 

[Anonymous]

My apologies for the sarcasm in my response to CF's comments "MAC is worse than the "F" word";but I take personal offense to this as I and the MAC staff have been busting our butts trying to affect positive change in the Philippines and Indonesia which is only GOOD for the hobby and industry.

Thanks for your input Mark. I hope you check in more often.

FWIW, I think the fact that you guys are still at it even after set backs and less than desireable results, speaks more about the organizations commitment than anything previous.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Knowse,
1.If MAC Certified organisms are not handled well and there are problems or excessive mortality, they will become de-certified and the supplier would have to work with you to resolve the problems.
2.Anyone observing a facility claiming to be MAC Certified or selling organisms as MAC Certified please inform MAC so we can take corrective action. You can send me the email.
3.There are far too many false, half true/innaccurate statements made here for me to address each and every one. In the five months I have been here (Phil and Indo) I have been working with exporters, collectors coordinators and collectors in preparing them for assessment and the certifications they have achieved. I am also working on trainings and monitoring protocol for better post harvest handling. Another area I work in is site selection of future areas we are considering working in.
4. It is unfair to say that any suggestions made are dismissed. I haven't seen many if any positive, constructive comments made here. It's ususally about what has happened in the past. MAC is evolving; certainly not as quickly as many of you would like to see, but I can tell you there are great challenges here. It has been said that 1000 collectors can be trained in 1 year. Trained to do what? collect fish? handle them properly?
I think that estimate is totally unrealistic. I would love to get suggestions from any of you.

Mark,

Thanks for sharing the information. I agree MAC has been evolving, the project MAC is undertaking is a difficult one considering the Philippines' context. One aspect readers should understand is that things in the Phillipines do not happen as quick as you want. It takes time to do simple things as for example going from Makati to Parañaque (where most exporters are concentrated) it could take hours during rush hours. I hope traffic has improved. Filipino's pace is a factor that delays many things.

Have you considered working with fishefolks in Isla Verde?

 

[coralfarmin]

JB

Proof positive that *PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE*