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dizzy

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Mike R King":12jkn6ag said:
BTW Degress are Environmental Science, Env. Health, Biology, Chemistry, Geology and Microbiology. and I've been doing community based management work in the islands since 1999 when I started CORL. I may be from the city but I'm sure as heck not "city folk" I spend more time in the villages and on their reefs than anywhere else. I eat, sleep and live village life 24/7/365 now, I know and understand the problems better then most and through CORL I'm helping develop real solutions to them.
Mike R King

Mike,
You just nailed the solution. It is going to take people willing to live the simple life of the villagers before Westerners will truly be able to understand the problems these people face. MAC has got to earn the trust of the Filipino people by humbling themselves. Going into areas of extreme poverty and living in luxury while making the occasional visit will not impresss them. Recruiting someone like Horge who has a complete understanding of the situation would really help. The more home grown problem solvers MAC can employ the better off they will be. If I may offer this bit of constructive criticism to MAC. Don't be afraid to hire people who do not agree with the head guy on every issue. While nice to have company loyalty you also need people who are not afraid to tell the emperor he has no clothes if such is the case. Same thing for the companies you are looking to certify. They should be able to point out flaws in the system and do so in public if they so choose, provided they are dealing in facts. I don't like the oath of loyalty MAC wants people to sign to become certified. I have a feeling short comings pointed out here in public receive more urgent attention than if they were handled though the proper chain of command. A lot of the mistakes you are admitting to probably never would have happened if criticism was allowed. At least that is the way it looks to me.
Mitch
 

coralfarmin

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Also, I last question Mike ,Steve , Mark

It is common knowledge that the #1 cause of lost production is *missed time*

Does this have any effect on fish collectin production as well, I mean, Mark cant make *all* the collectors in his *camp* show every day for 2 weeks to complete their training.
 

coralfarmin

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Oh..mark@mac

Just remember the *#1* rule of delegation.

Always accept responsiblity for *everything* even if it is not really your fault.
And you'll do a fine job.

Protecting our reefs, *imo*
 

clarionreef

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I agree that none of the currently certified sites are "great" with regard to volume and/or variety, or accessability, there have certainly been some lessons learned.
For years this was hi-lighted....and you now you seem to agree.

Camotes specialized in halfblack angels that no one wants... but now they are in high demand because of the quality in post harvest handling and are consequently fetching higher prices..... :roll: ???

Let's try to be nice, learn from past mistakes ...
what mistakes? The massive amounts refered to by Dave V. at IMAC before he suddenly left MAC?
Mark,
If things are now so different from the years before you arrived it shows that you must agree with much of the years of discussion here as it cried out for serious changes.
The constant pressure we put on to involve aquarium people with enough experience to know the difference between a halfblack and a majestic has given you your job no doubt.
OK, So MACs now just a year old?
Steve
 

clarionreef

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The MAC imposed a limit of 100K to teach 1000 and create the needed CAMPs LOL !!!!
After making the agreement with CORL [and cohorts] via negotiations with Lino who so desperately wanted to get some fish flowing...any fish...we know now that MAC reneged and sabatoged it with tricks like that.
They were afraid of losing credit and control of the whole movement and decided to have poor Lino sandbag it after negotiating it in the end.
Clever it was. So year after year of failures ensued and no fish flow, saving coral, "post harvest" reforms etc. resulted.

But wait....
This year , 2005, MAC is born again...agreeing de-facto with our version of a past it wants to forget and is giving Mark the mandate???
Stay tuned...
PS.
But Mark, pardon those of us who are not born again and got it right the first time. :wink:
 

clarionreef

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Mike,
You just nailed the solution. It is going to take people willing to live the simple life of the villagers before Westerners will truly be able to understand the problems these people face. MAC has got to earn the trust of the Filipino people by humbling themselves. Going into areas of extreme poverty and living in luxury while making the occasional visit will not impresss them...
Dizzy

BINGO ! :D
 

PeterIMA

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Mark,

Welcome to Reefs.org. It is refreshing to actually have someone from the MAC that makes sense and is willing to discuss the issues. It looks like there may even be an opportunity for reconciliaton between the various camps (no pun intended).

Before that can happen many obstacles will need to be removed.

1) Paul the wall needs to be willing to negotiate. I don't believe that you or John Brandt have the authority to make commitments on behalf of the MAC.

2) Someone in the MAC needs to clearly explain the relationship between the underwater surveys being conducted by ReefCheck and the net trainings being conducted under the supervision of MAC staff. It is not just an issue of training more collectors. The number of collectors must be matched against what the reefs can sustainably produce.

3) The issue of sustainability is serious. Even 15 years ago, when the University of the Philippines conducted a second round of reef surveys, the reefs were seriously degraded (<4% in excellent condition). I believe that the limiting factor now is that there are not enough reefs in fair to good condition (in either the Philippines or Indonesia) to support the food fisheries and the aquarium fish fishery at present levels of exploitation.

4) In the Philippines there needs to be changes in government policies such as legalizing the creation of artificial reefs, and legalizing both the farming and the export of farmed coral frags, live rock, and giant clams (reared on TURFs in the ocean). These are some of the alternatives that could help to provide alternative livelihoods, create additional income for the communties, and help to support rehabilitation of coral reefs. Mike King and CORL could play a big role here.

5) The MAMTI proposal outlines the need to implement Ecosystem Fisheries Management (EFM) standards and certification tied to EFM. This will not be an easy task considering the advanced state of degredation of the reefs. The number of reefs in good to excellent condition may now be insufficient to allow recruitment of fish larvae (from distant reefs) into areas protected by MPAs or other areas being created near municipalities where collectors reside. I was recently informed about situations in PI where this appears to be the case.

6) Most of the reefs that still have exploitable populations of marine
aquarium fishes (MAF) are very far from the home villages of the collectors. I am hearing that the collectors are now facing a catch22. The price of fuel has increased to the point where they cannot afford to travel by boat to the collection sites. Air transport of fishes from the southern Philippines is also cost prohibitive at the prices presently being paid by the exporters to the collectors.

7) Steve and even Mark have alluded to the fact that the exporters are unwilling to pay the collectors more for net-caught MAF. The exporters in turn note the refusal of the importers to pay more for net-caught MAC-certified MAF. The pricing issues need to be resolved. The MAC could play an important role, but so far has not been able to convince the trade to increase the pricing through the chain of custody.

8) I believe that better collection, handling, packing, and shipping procedures must be implemented to reduce the mortality through the chain of custody. The most important changes need to occur (through proper village-based training) with the way the collectors collect (nets rather than cyanide) and through the way they deal with stress and ammonia during transport from the collection sites, at the villages, and during shipment to the export facilities near international airports. While, the MAC claims to be making progress in these areas, I have not seen any information (e.g., publications) that explains how this is being done (which makes me sceptical that they know how to do it). If more fish survive more profit can be made at all steps of the chain of custody. Assuming that this is occurring, the exporters need to pay the collectors more for better quality fish that live to be exported.

9) I believe that there needs to be a massive program to implement a licensing and zoning strategy. The zoning would be implemented and
enforced at the municipal level. Zoning would include the creation of
MPAs, TURFs, and Collection Areas. Collection Areas could be created by working with the collectors through the implementation of Collection Area Management Plans (CAMPs).

10) The collectors need to cooperate with municipal government authorities (e.g., through the Fisheries and Aquatic Management Councils being created in PI). It is not clear how the MAC is presently ensuring that the collectors obey existing laws against destructive fishing (e.g., not using cyanide) and how the MAC trainings fit with existing laws in the host countries (e.g., Philippines and Indonesia). The MAC is not the government and hence does not have the authority to enforce laws, but it needs to implement programs that conform to existing legislation. Some explanation concerning how the present MAC trainings accomplish this is needed.

Sincerely,
Peter Rubec
 

mark@mac

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Dizzy wrote:You just nailed the solution. It is going to take people willing to live the simple life of the villagers before Westerners will truly be able to understand the problems these people face. MAC has got to earn the trust of the Filipino people by humbling themselves. Going into areas of extreme poverty and living in luxury while making the occasional visit will not impresss them...
Dizzy

When I and other staff visit/train in areas, we live and "hang" with the locals and even enjoy thier food and tuba! Man, those big unicorns are delicous!

PeterIMA wrote:
2) Someone in the MAC needs to clearly explain the relationship between the underwater surveys being conducted by ReefCheck and the net trainings being conducted under the supervision of MAC staff. It is not just an issue of training more collectors. The number of collectors must be matched against what the reefs can sustainably produce.

Peter, you are absolutely correct and we are already doing this with all new collection areas. This is a critical issue. Unfortunately, more often than not, there are more collectors wanting to be certified than some collection areas can actually support. A BIG CHALLENGE!

PeterIMA makes several other good points. Post harvest handling, accessibility of collection areas, compliance with municipal laws, cut throat, low ball pricing, rising fuel costs..... These are all serious issues
that we DO acknowledge and HAVE TO RESOLVE. This is where some of OUR greatest challenges lie. I for one think aquaculture of corals, and clams especially, could really change things here.... giant clam culture alone could significantly change lives of so many people for the better! But the gov and BFAR here don't realize that yet. Then there is CITES... How many years off is this???

I am certainly not the saviour here, just trying to make a difference. I love the oceans and all animals within. I feel the aquarium hobby is an essential component to ocean conservation; as the marine aquarium is a very important tool and the window to the ocean for most.

All for now,

Mark ( I go to the field tomorrow, gone for a week) Cheers!
 

dizzy

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Mark,
You were given a wonderful opportunity to make a big difference. I think you're the right man for the job. Good luck.
Mitch
 

mkirda

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knowse":36oc0a6u said:
that they are loosing fish in the coc. Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

The Bohol guys have to send fish to Cebu for export. The folks in Manila will not get them as the freight costs are just too high for the number of fish, and the commonality of the species. This part is simple economics, folks.

I am going to make a generality here and state it openly as I think it true.
I believe that Cebu has more international flights to Europe than to America. (I could be wrong...) So it makes some sense that these fish out of Bohol will end up in Europe rather than America. You could ship them by ferry, but the fish will be in rough shape by the time they arrive in Manila. This is also one of the reasons why Tawi-Tawi is such a bad place to collect fish. The freight costs are too prohibitive to make them cost effective. You can build a business on extraction out of the Jolo region based only on closeness to Zamboanga. With world oil prices reaching the mid-$60's, you cannot get the fish to export facilities cheaply enough to make it worthwhile. All you need to do is look at a map and see where these are in relation to Manila or Cebu.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

mkirda

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coralfarmin":2jtiuo6o said:
If you cortez have the answers and MAC has the money
Or do you guys got alot of money also cortez?

How about "MAC doesn't like criticism"?

Mike
 

mark@mac

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Mike Kirda writes:

"How about "MAC doesn't like criticism"?

Mike"

Now Mike, this is not a fair, or even true statement, it is simply your opinion. This is an example of the progaganda that I have mentioned before. It could be all about the presentation.....

On behalf of MAC, I welcome ANY CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM!

For example, I don't recall hearing talk about this Jolo area, maybe others here refer to it by another name. I will certainly look into it and make sure it gets included in our collection area database for review. Thanks for the suggestion.
I am still waiting for suggestions like this from others here......

Mark,

ps, your comments about Bohol shipments to Manila are mostly accurate.
Cebu exporters would buy most of the fish from these areas if they could. We are looking at many sites closer to Manila, but actually, some
of these Bohol fish do make it to Manila.
 

clarionreef

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, I don't recall hearing talk about this Jolo area, maybe others here refer to it by another name. I will certainly look into it and make sure it gets included in our collection area database for review. Thanks for the sugFor examplegestion.
Mark,
You really are innocent.
Jolo is the area of the strongest rebel sentiment and hardly a place for you guys to set up anything.
This is very well know down there....The can-do really attitude needs to be mixed with some local knowledge.
Steve
ps.
On the Buhol side, did the collectors ship to other people with or without the lady staff person still on board? You know, the one left there to insure that all the paperwork was done.
 

mkirda

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mark@mac":2cljq3se said:
Mike Kirda writes:

"How about "MAC doesn't like criticism"?

Mike"

Now Mike, this is not a fair, or even true statement, it is simply your opinion. This is an example of the progaganda that I have mentioned before. It could be all about the presentation.....

Yes, it is my opinion, but I will say that that it also depends on the messenger.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

horge

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giant clam culture alone could significantly change lives of so many people for the better! But the gov and BFAR here don't realize that yet. Then there is CITES... How many years off is this???


:lol: :lol: :lol:
That above, and the Jolo angle just about capped what's been a hell of a day for me.
 

dizzy

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Damn Horge,
One sarcastic post like that and your whole future working for the MAC vaporized. Seriously, you should hook up with Mark and offer your services. Mark is willing to listen and he is genuinely trying to help. I think Mark will be the first to tell you he's still green around the edges when it comes to field work. This thing could possibly be put on a faster track if the MAC planners were willing to listen to the right consultants. You da man horge.
 

PeterIMA

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So, what experience does Horge have that makes him qualified to conduct net trainings or work with collectors of MAF?

Peter Rubec
 

dizzy

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Peter,
Mark has asked for input on areas they should look to certify. He didn't ask for net trainers to my knowledge. Are you suggesting Horge isn't qualified to consult with on which areas might yield the best fish? :roll:
Mitch
 

PeterIMA

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Mitch, I think that the MAC and ReefCheck should know this. Afterall, MAMTI funding is paying ReefCheck to conduct underwater surveys. The surveys are intended to assess fish species composition, abundances, and the relative condition of the coral reef habitats. Hence, ReefCheck should have the most up-to-date information on these matters.

However, I agree that other experts such as Horge, Steve Robinson, or Jessica Meeuwig could advise MAC and ReefCheck where they might conduct their initial surveys and community-based trainings. Mark and/or other MAC personnel should also contact reef scientists at the University of the Philippines (Diliman).

Peter Rubec
 

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