cyanide fishing in the Phillipines

[PeterIMA]

While we may dismiss Kalk's comments as being offbase (even deliberate distortions) they do exemplify the unspoken attitude of the marine aquarium fish trade. The trade has by and large not accepted its responsability to support reform (e.g. net training as an alternative to fish capture using cyanide).

BUT, some of you may object we support the MAC. And my reply is where is the proof that the MAC's programs are for real? In their last newsletter it does not state where the MAC conducted net trainings. My informants state that their trainers are incompetent. MAC certified importers and retailers can't seem to obtain any MAC-certified net caught fishes. If the trainings are working, where are the fish?

Even if there are fish, what assurances do we have that they actually are net caught and not caught with cyanide? The MAC needs to substantiate its claims. Will the MAC pay to have observers visit the training sites and inspect the paper trail they supposedly created to assure consumers that the fish being traded were caught with nets (and hence not caught with cyanide)?

Until we see some proof to confirm the MAC's claims, we must dismiss the MAC's programs as being bogus. Please prove me wrong if you can.

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

While we may dismiss Kalk's comments as being offbase (even deliberate distortions) they do exemplify the unspoken attitude of the marine aquarium fish trade. The trade has by and large not accepted its responsability to support reform (e.g. net training as an alternative to fish capture using cyanide).

BUT, some of you may object we support the MAC. And my reply is where is the proof that the MAC's programs are for real? In their last newsletter it does not state where the MAC conducted net trainings. My informants state that their trainers are incompetent. MAC certified importers and retailers can't seem to obtain any MAC-certified net caught fishes. If the trainings are working, where are the fish?

Even if there are fish, what assurances do we have that they actually are net caught and not caught with cyanide? The MAC needs to substantiate its claims. Will the MAC pay to have observers visit the training sites and inspect the paper trail they supposedly created to assure consumers that the fish being traded were caught with nets (and hence not caught with cyanide)?

Until we see some proof to confirm the MAC's claims, we must dismiss the MAC's programs as being bogus. Please prove me wrong if you can.

Peter Rubec

hello and welcome to two years ago ! :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

While we may dismiss Peter's comments as being offbase (even deliberate distortions) they do exemplify the unspoken attitude of the Anti marine aquarium fish trade. ).
The name calling game is oh so easy ,empty fluff, "The President will kill old people if elected."..."The republicans want to return to jim crow days"..... ,You ask for some proof of the acusations and they return with empty fluff . I cant prove the president wont kill old people if elected , so that means it must be true!.....

 

[Kalkbreath]

Lets examine the attitude of the aquarium industry since the first year of testing by Peter until present;
The rate of cyanide decreased by fifty percent in the following two years and eighty percent in five years.
The number of non cyanide using countries {like Solomons} exporting fishfor the trade grew by more then twenty new sources....
reducing the number of fish exported from PI by half.
The number of coral, clam and fish farms increased twenty fold.
Sales over the Internet have increased each year , and less then ten percent of the online sales are fish.
Today the number of farmed sps corals sold is almost equal to the number of wild collected.|
If we are to exclude the big box stores which are really part of the pet industry not the Aquarium industry .....The marine aquarium industry has changed from about 90 percent live stock from PI to less then 25 percent.
|Armed with the data Reeformers like to keep hidden,[notice how few times anti hobby crowd uses numbers or data in their attacks] readers can make a much more informed decision on whether the industry had remolded itself ovr the last fifteen years.
The aquarium industry has had a seventy percent change in attitude!
Thats hardly the deft ear that some would have you believe.
Actually having the data and explanation to go with the opinion sure educates the reader more then the simple :

While we may dismiss Kalk's comments as being offbase (even deliberate distortions) they do exemplify the unspoken attitude of the marine aquarium fish trade. The trade has by and large not accepted its responsibility to support reform (e.g. net training as an alternative to fish capture using cyanide).

 

[Anonymous]

Lets examine the attitude of the aquarium industry since the first year of testing by Peter until present;
The rate of cyanide decreased by fifty percent in the following two years and eighty percent in five years.
The number of non cyanide using countries {like Solomons} exporting fishfor the trade grew by more then twenty new sources....
reducing the number of fish exported from PI by half.
The number of coral, clam and fish farms increased twenty fold.
Sales over the Internet have increased each year , and less then ten percent of the online sales are fish.
Today the number of farmed sps corals sold is almost equal to the number of wild collected.|
If we are to exclude the big box stores which are really part of the pet industry not the Aquarium industry .....The marine aquarium industry has changed from about 90 percent live stock from PI to less then 25 percent.
|Armed with the data Reeformers like to keep hidden,[notice how few times anti hobby crowd uses numbers or data in their attacks] readers can make a much more informed decision on whether the industry had remolded itself ovr the last fifteen years.
The aquarium industry has had a seventy percent change in attitude!
Thats hardly the deft ear that some would have you believe.
Actually having the data and explanation to go with the opinion sure educates the reader more then the simple :

While we may dismiss Kalk's comments as being offbase (even deliberate distortions) they do exemplify the unspoken attitude of the marine aquarium fish trade. The trade has by and large not accepted its responsibility to support reform (e.g. net training as an alternative to fish capture using cyanide).

you've yet to provide factual data in all contentions you've made using 'data' on this forum since you've been posting here-even your basic math is usually faulty :lol:

 

[Kalkbreath]

What's the matter dont have data to juxtapose to mine.
Thats always worked in the favor of the anti industry crowd, get one scientist to write a hack job and your off and running. Even if the Marine industry did their own study.....you could discount it as self serving and tainted. One sided studies have been the trademark of the anti Industry crowd.
Never mind that they have all been slightly short of playing a full deck .
.......Like the idea that Australia exports the same number of fish a the Philippines each year all cyanide free , with little DOA and how that proves PI can do the same. [What officail data pointed out that Austraila exports 1/60th of the fish PI ships? ]
.......Or when a Scientist uses a fish base that has more blue ribbon eels then yellow tangs .......and wants to compare his findings to the real world.[Where was the paper showing that yellow tangs are sold 500 to one blue ribbon eel? If Frank and Peter didnt catch this issue then perhaps the anti industry crowd should pick a more in tuned leaders]
......Or when another study tests 7 boxes of fish over eight years [during those same eight years, 50 million boxes of fish were exported} and that somehow is the standard for all discussions about the trade in PI.
The very fact that the same scientists and anti industry paper writers who wrote about the industry ten years ago have seem to have currently developed writers cramp when the topic of .....Farmed corals , the Fish from other nations , The Internet sales , Reef tanks , or any of the other major changes the industry has gone through making their old papers pointless in todays discussions.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Marine ornamentals imported to the US from:

Solomon Islands

2000 US $ 85.926
2001 $105.520
2002 $ 83.063
2003 $180.257
2004 $134.755

Belize

2000 US $ 0
2001 0
2002 0
2003 $ 8.392
2004 $98.653

Cook Islands

2000 US $ 13.067
2001 6.806
2002 15.748
2003 9.921
2004 2.112


Vietnam


2000 US $ 6.083
2001 46.966
2002 99.063
2003 187.897
2004 237.271

Haiti

1995 US$ 405.925
1996 315.582
1997 422.213
1998 383.122
1999 406.361
2000 US$ 393.554
2001 348.349
2002 369.397
2003 201.966
2004 278.701

Vietnam and Haiti should be a matter of concern for the marine aquarium industry. Use of cyanide has been reported as method of collection in Vietnam.

Political situation, corruption and lack of regulation and enforcement in Haiti should be also a matter of concern for the marine ornamentals industry in the states. Value of ornamentals coming from that country is decreasing. It won't take that long to realize that the resource has been depleted.

 

[Anonymous]

What's the matter dont have data to juxtapose to mine. Thats always worked in the favor of the anti industry crowd, get one scientist to write a hack job and your off and running. Even if the Marine industry did their own study.....you could discount it as self serving and tainted. One sided studies have been the trademark of the anti Industry crowd.
Never mind that they have all been slightly short of playing a full deck .
.......Like the idea that Australia exports the same number of fish a the Philippines each year all cyanide free , with little DOA and how that proves PI can do the same. [What officail data pointed out that Austraila exports 1/60th of the fish PI ships? ]
.......Or when a Scientist uses a fish base that has more blue ribbon eels then yellow tangs .......and wants to compare his findings to the real world.[Where was the paper showing that yellow tangs are sold 500 to one blue ribbon eel? If Frank and Peter didnt catch this issue then perhaps the anti industry crowd should pick a more in tuned leaders]
......Or when another study tests 7 boxes of fish over eight years [during those same eight years, 50 million boxes of fish were exported} and that somehow is the standard for all discussions about the trade in PI.
The very fact that the same scientists and anti industry paper writers who wrote about the industry ten years ago have seem to have currently developed writers cramp when the topic of .....Farmed corals , the Fish from other nations , The Internet sales , Reef tanks , or any of the other major changes the industry has gone through making their old papers pointless in todays discussions.

oy vey :roll:

kalk, there's been more factually valid, mathematically sound data posted on this forum that you've attempted to refute via less than kindergarten level math (1+1=11) on countless occasions since i've been reading this forum (2002)than there are feathers on a peacock

give it a rest-all you ever really accomplish is to make yourself look silly - not clever, or humurous :roll: :idea:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Funny how you never actually site any ?
Oh! You mean like Jamie's repeating a rumor of Haiti using cyanide.
There you go its official.........Cyanide is rampant in Haiti.

Please do tell, if you had to site two reports in which you base your opinion on what the current state of MO fishing in PI.
What would you claim?

 

[Anonymous]

Funny how you never actually site any ?
Oh! You mean like Jamie's repeating a rumor of Haiti using cyanide.
There you go its official.........Cyanide is rampant in Haiti.

Please do tell, if you had to site two reports in which you base your opinion on what the current state of MO fishing in PI.
What would you claim?

i'm too tired to go digging up posts for you, kalk-you'll just bring out your imaginary abacus again :roll:

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Kalk,

I have not said that cyanide is used in Haiti. I said that there is evidence that cyanide is used in Vietnam.

The problem in Haiti is different. You shouldn't feel happy knowing that fish are coming to the states from Haiti instead of the Philippines.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Marine ornamentals imported to the US from:

Solomon Islands

2000 US $ 85.926
2001 $105.520
2002 $ 83.063
2003 $180.257
2004 $134.755

Belize

2000 US $ 0
2001 0
2002 0
2003 $ 8.392
2004 $98.653

Cook Islands

2000 US $ 13.067
2001 6.806
2002 15.748
2003 9.921
2004 2.112


Vietnam


2000 US $ 6.083
2001 46.966
2002 99.063
2003 187.897
2004 237.271

Haiti

1995 US$ 405.925
1996 315.582
1997 422.213
1998 383.122
1999 406.361
2000 US$ 393.554
2001 348.349
2002 369.397
2003 201.966
2004 278.701

The Hurricanes in Haiti are responsible for the decrease in exports there, as well as a move to more inverts and less demand for fish of any type.{isnt that right Bob/}

Cook islands has decreased because the collector is battling cancer.[isnt that right Chip?]

Solomon islands has been importing too many sea snakes.....I mean eels and since the civil war on the islands intensified , exporting has been more difficult.[isnt that right Dave}

See how much more enlightened the reader becomes with the addition of text combined with the "Data"
Numbers mean little without an explanation. Stop relying on them alone.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,

I have not said that cyanide is used in Haiti. I said that there is evidence that cyanide is used in Vietnam.

The problem in Haiti is different. You shouldn't feel happy knowing that fish are coming to the states from Haiti instead of the Philippines.

I stand corrected . Your right. And I actually agree with both statements. But what is your concern if not cyanide in Haiti?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Funny how you never actually site any ?
Oh! You mean like Jamie's repeating a rumor of Haiti using cyanide.
There you go its official.........Cyanide is rampant in Haiti.

Please do tell, if you had to site two reports in which you base your opinion on what the current state of MO fishing in PI.
What would you claim?

i'm too tired to go digging up posts for you, kalk-you'll just bring out your imaginary abacus again :roll:

Just refresh our memory.....no links .......just try to remember a few details.
Why can you remember that there is a problem , but not why you feel the way you do?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Kalk,

My concern with Haiti is that this artisanal fishery is not reglamented.In addition high levels of corruption and poverty within the government and population do not help conservation causes.

 

[mkirda]

Funny how you never actually site any ?
Oh! You mean like Jamie's repeating a rumor of Haiti using cyanide.
There you go its official.........Cyanide is rampant in Haiti.

Love that misquote...

Use of cyanide has been reported as method of collection in Vietnam.

Hint: Haiti is in the CARRIBEAN, which is SOUTH of the US little ways. Vietnam is literally on the other side of the globe.

God help me... I'm teaching Kalk geography. I hope he doesn't want me to "site" a world map... :wink:

 

[mkirda]

The Hurricanes in Haiti are responsible for the decrease in exports there, as well as a move to more inverts and less demand for fish of any type.{isnt that right Bob/}

{snip}

See how much more enlightened the reader becomes with the addition of text combined with the "Data"
Numbers mean little without an explanation. Stop relying on them alone.

I see more reasons than just hurricanes for decreased exports from Haiti.
When thugs are running around the streets with guns killing people for no particular reason, business, in general, slows down. I'd attribute the slowdown more to the general state of lawlessness first, with hurricanes being a possible second.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,

My concern with Haiti is that this artisanal fishery is not reglamented.In addition high levels of corruption and poverty within the government and population do not help conservation causes.

Your right, Haiti is a lot like the Philippines in the early days . {So Ive been told} My experience is that the inverts are great . and its pretty hard to over collect inverts ,other then localized areas . The Big fish coming out of there , like Angles needs to ....................get ready!

............Be banned!
The adult breeding fish have no Business in our place. They must stay out on the reefs. With inverts , It impossible to collect every last pair. Even one pair can replenish millions the next spring. Big fish how ever take years to reach breeding age and can easily be over collected.

Bet you didnt know Kalk would support a ban on big fish collecting!

 

[Kalkbreath]

The Hurricanes in Haiti are responsible for the decrease in exports there, as well as a move to more inverts and less demand for fish of any type.{isnt that right Bob/}

{snip}

See how much more enlightened the reader becomes with the addition of text combined with the "Data"
Numbers mean little without an explanation. Stop relying on them alone.

I see more reasons than just hurricanes for decreased exports from Haiti.
When thugs are running around the streets with guns killing people for no particular reason, business, in general, slows down. I'd attribute the slowdown more to the general state of lawlessness first, with hurricanes being a possible second.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

I agree the civil unrest dosent help, but the market also changed.....the inverts have been increasing and the fish demand dwindlng for years. The market for Big fish like Queen Angles is about dried up . Those big fish were responsible for the bigger export totals in past years. Inverts generate more profit per dollar and require less effort then big fish. Bob might actually be making a greater profit now then in the past from an invert based business instead of fish.....
I know I am :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Funny how you never actually site any ?
Oh! You mean like Jamie's repeating a rumor of Haiti using cyanide.
There you go its official.........Cyanide is rampant in Haiti.

Love that misquote...

Use of cyanide has been reported as method of collection in Vietnam.

Hint: Haiti is in the CARRIBEAN, which is SOUTH of the US little ways. Vietnam is literally on the other side of the globe.

God help me... I'm teaching Kalk geography. I hope he doesn't want me to "site" a world map... :wink:

You still should understand the point I was making, exchange the word Veitnam for Haiti if it makes you sleep better and correct my spelling while your at it. By the way Veitnam is about to start exporting hard corals ! I am soiling my paints with anticipation!