cyanide fishing in the Phillipines

[Kalkbreath]

I wish you were correct about the amount of control American wholesalers have on overseas exporters. Even the Agents here in the states who actually control the flow of livestock are almost all foreigners sent here to control the distribution of fish and corals. Your confusing wholesalers/resellers with importers/agents.
Almost all the PI and Indo livestock is actually imported not by what you think of as the industry........but foreign agents that live stateside and own the rights to the livestock. American wholesalers buy the product through these agents.
Wholesalers are not very different from retail stores, you can attempt to go around the system and buy direct, but most often then not your going to get burned by the lack of either available aircargo space or the inexperience of the new supplier.
You as a wholesaler buy the product from the established foreign exporters or you dont.
The industry has very distinct levels,
The retailers dont dictate what the wholesalers do
the wholesalers dont have much control over what the exporters do
And the exporters dont really have much control over what the collectors do.

Most of the Indo/PI collectors are free lance divers, they bring what they collect to a Pawnshop like exporter. The exporter has no idea where the fish came from or how they came to be captured.
the agent who lands the fish in the states has little knowledge about the fish .
the wholesaler at LAX has no idea.
And the retail store has not a clue.
Your correct that the system needs better accountability, but its hardly the fault of the retail store or the wholesaler.
The system has been in place so long that even the power and money of MAC cant come close to fixing it as of yet.
Demanding that each person in the American fish industry owns up to his or her share of the responsibility.... is a tall order when the powers that be are an ocean away.

 

[horge]

I'd thought we finally were past this kind of disappointing ebak, Kalk.

From denying that significant cyanide-fishing exists,
to denying that significant reef damage from cyanide exists,
to denying culpability for the damage...

Folks can go on trying to pin the tail on a fleeing donkey,
but if all it serves is the donkey, maybe they need to re-evaluate
how their valuable time is spent.


h.

 

[mkirda]

I {snip} ocean away.

This is just one long rationalization.

The FACT remains that importing and selling tainted fish is ILLEGAL in the US of A. Saying that you didn't know isn't a valid defense.

Power of MAC. That one is actually funny. Like MAC has an enforcement arm or something... Really, Kalk, you're killing me here.

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, You have some good points in your arguments, but you continue to misconstrue and distort the facts.

For example, you now claim that the average percent of marine aquarium fishes (MAF) is 23% from 1996 to 2001, when in fact my paper published in 2003 stated that the average percent cyanide present in MAF from 1996 to 1999 was 25%. The average percent cyanide present for food fishes over the same time period was 43%. The overall average was 37% for both food fishes and MAF. If I had added the 2000 data to the MAF average it would be higher for 1996 to 2000, since the incidence of cyanide present in the MAF tested for CDT increased from 8% in 1999 to 29% in 2000. I also have 2001 CTD data that still needs further analyses. The data are sufficient (48,000 measurements) to prove the widespread use of cyanide associated with fishing in the Philippines (for the live and dead fish trades).

You are right to put emphasis on the need for more CDT monitoring to determine the extent of use of cyanide for the capture of food fishes (e.g. the live food fish trade of groupers for sale to Hong Kong restaurants).

We should also recognize that the use of cyanide is not just limited to the Philippines. It is also totally out of control in Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, and Papua New Guinea. Since marine aquarium fishes also come to the USA from these other countries, it is difficult to determine the actual percent of cyanided fishes entering the USA. It is safe to assume that percent of cyanided MAF entering the USA is higher than the 25% found in the Philippines from 1996 to 1999. More CDT monitoring is needed in the countries of origin and with the fishes entering the USA (and Canada). Hopefully, governments of these countries will fund CDT monitoring to enforce laws against cyanide fishing.

Perhaps, the use of cyanide is higher in the live food trades as you allege. However, this does not absolve the aquarium trade (either in the USA or abroad) from being guilty of trading MAF caught by illegal means (cyanide). The "trade" encompasses more than the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Association (PFTEA). The various parts of the "trade" could do more to support net training. The MAC's net training programs appear to be ineffective, as far as I can ascertain. It seems pathetic that the trade (including the US part) can't find the funds to support "doing it right". Consequently, the only solution is to ban the import of MAF from these countries.

Peter Rubec

 

[Kalkbreath]

I {snip} ocean away.

This is just one long rationalization.

The FACT remains that importing and selling tainted fish is ILLEGAL in the US of A. Saying that you didn't know isn't a valid defense.

.

Then why stop at the wholesalers? The retailers are doing exactly the same. If id doesnt bother you that the wholesalers have no way of knowing how their fish came to be , then the same goes for retailers.

 

[Kalkbreath]

I {snip} ocean away.

This is just one long rationalization.


Power of MAC. That one is actually funny. Like MAC has an enforcement arm or something... Really, Kalk, you're killing me here.

Then if forty million dollars and all the people on the ground {and in the water} that MAC spent trying to sort out the collection issues in Pi .......still had little effect. How in the **** is each individual LAX wholesaler supposed to fix a Philippino social problem?

 

[mkirda]

Then why stop at the wholesalers? The retailers are doing exactly the same. If id doesnt bother you that the wholesalers have no way of knowing how their fish came to be , then the same goes for retailers.

Who said it stopped at the retailers, Kalk?
Besides you? Heck, they are just as guilty of selling illegally imported fish, as the importers are of importing them.

The thing about stores is that they can claim (with some degree of truth) that they have no control over the fish's importation. To give an example, I had recently gotten a strange snail I had never seen from a store whose owner I trust to be telling me the truth. The snail was listed as being from Tonga. In actuality, it was from outer Baja. If the importer lies about the origin of their snails (I mean, who cares?!?!), then you can be sure that they will have no issue whatsoever lying about the origin of their fish.

Does this absolve them of everything? No, I don't think so.
It only makes them a little less culpable. Hobbyists are even less so, for the same reason - Stores can lie too.

Think about the guy who tokes on a joint once in a while. Is he guilty of killing someone? You would argue no. But his tacit support of a trade grounded in smuggling of illegal substances makes him a supporter of the drug trade murders that occur either here or overseas. He is ultimately the reason why the murders can and do occur. Without his support, they wouldn't have happened. Ultimately, the consumers are responsible to a certain degree.

Hobbyists and stores can participate in the trade in such a way that they do not ever touch fish coming in from dubious sources. But let's face the truth here: No stores are willing to do this because they need to maximize sales in order to survive in this increasingly cut-throat marketplace. The relentless pursuit of the lowest possible price has led us directly here. I know a lot of store owners will be nodding at this. This relentless cutting of margins leaves no room for better capture methods, better handling methods, and better survival rates.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Then if forty million dollars and all the people on the ground {and in the water} that MAC spent trying to sort out the collection issues in Pi .......still had little effect. How in the **** is each individual LAX wholesaler supposed to fix a Philippino social problem?

If the forty million had been spent on enforcing the laws that already exist(ed) and the guilty parties had learned that Hey, wait - they are serious this time...., the problem would have fixed itself. The problem with MAC is that the system had no penalties built in. You could get certified and go out and use cyanide and (apparently) not lose your certification. Nice idea, filled with holes, didn't pan out, let's move on to the next one. Face it, if MAC hasn't gotten the three areas it was working with three years ago certified by now, they have failed in their mission.

 

[Anonymous]

one should smoke only homegrown, or hydro :wink: :lol:

 

[dizzy]

The problem with MAC is that the system had no penalties built in. You could get certified and go out and use cyanide and (apparently) not lose your certification. Nice idea, filled with holes, didn't pan out, let's move on to the next one. Face it, if MAC hasn't gotten the three areas it was working with three years ago certified by now, they have failed in their mission.

Mike did you read the last MAC quarterly report? Apparently one of the exporters did lose MAC certification. All and all I think this past report was probably the most honest, tell it like it really is, report that I've read so far. Kudos to MAC for that.
Mitch

 

[Kalkbreath]

I'd thought we finally were past this kind of disappointing ebak, Kalk.

From denying that significant cyanide-fishing exists,
to denying that significant reef damage from cyanide exists,
to denying culpability for the damage...

Folks can go on trying to pin the tail on a fleeing donkey,
but if all it serves is the donkey, maybe they need to re-evaluate
how their valuable time is spent.


h.

Blaming the westerners for a social problem in PI serves your countrymen nil.
Cyanide fishing has become so inbreeded in Philippines that some wonder if its from eating so much cyanide seafood

Fishermen willing to feed their children cyanide poisoned fish do so not because of western influence, but because the society they live in has chosen not to condemn it.
Westerners dont ask for cyanide fish , we are willing to except a few dirty fish mixed in with the batch.
The USA can only do so much, testing of fish here in the states would simply cause exporters in PI to hold the fish long enough for the traces of cyanide to decrease below detectable level. Holding the fish for weeks in crowded Philippine systems would double the death rate of waiting fish . Twice as much cyanide use would be needed to replace the fish that die in holding. I doubt that doubling the use of cyanide out on the reefs would help the situation. Testing and enforcement can only come from the local Philippine government.
Were still waiting on your nation to step up to the plate.

 

[mkirda]

Westerners dont ask for cyanide fish , we are willing to except a few dirty fish mixed in with the batch.

[Followed by...]

Were still waiting on your nation to step up to the plate.

So blame the Filipino for our willingness to break our own county's laws?

I'm sorry, doesn't compute.

Do you think there would be an illegal drug trade if there were no demand for the illegal drugs?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Westerners dont ask for cyanide fish , we are willing to except a few dirty fish mixed in with the batch.

[Followed by...]

Were still waiting on your nation to step up to the plate.

So blame the Filipino for our willingness to break our own county's laws?

I'm sorry, doesn't compute.

Do you think there would be an illegal drug trade if there were no demand for the illegal drugs?

There is no demand for poisoned fish. Do you think there would still be a drug industry if some of the drugs in the supply were illegal?

 

[mkirda]

There is no demand for poisoned fish. Do you think there would still be a drug industry if some of the drugs in the supply were illegal?

Well, that one is pretty much self-evident. There is a drug industry and there are drugs that are counterfeit (and therefore illegal).

We have demand for cheap fish. The easiest way for someone without enough patience to learn how to net-catch fish is by a squirt bottle. Heck, the numbers *you* quoted show pretty conclusively that they are caught and make it into the supply. If the demand wasn't there for cheap, poorly-handled fish, we wouldn't be getting them in now would we? You claim there is no demand, yet there is a supply that is absorbed (and not all by the importers and stores in the form of dead fish either) into the greater market nevertheless. You can't argue both sides, Kalk. If there was no demand, they wouldn't be collected in this fashion. This may be what we get from all the newbie hobbyists that want the best specimens at the second day of the estate sale price. The industry can't make the money at $1 per damsel wholesale, so they come down to 20 cents each. The only strategy that makes sense becomes turn and burn.
A perfect circle.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Blaming the end users of a poisoned fish for the fish being collected with poison, is quite silly .lets look at the other end users of fish collected by the vary same bad divers.
Do we really believe that the children who eat cyanide fish choose to do so? {"no hook and line fish for me Mom , I want juiced fish tonight!"}
How about the dinner guests in the restaurants of Hong Kong? When picking out the fish in the restaurant aquarium, do we really think the dinners are seeking out the fish with poison?
There is no demand for poisoned fish , just like there is no demand for fish that have been poorly collected or handled in other ways..... Just because a some of the fish come in with Ick, does not mean there is a demand for that condition.
Inability to control that small percentage of the fish are collected in an improper manner does not translate into people wanting the fish that way.
And inability to control what other wholesalers purchase does not translate into me being responsible for their choices either.

 

[mkirda]

Blaming the end users of a poisoned fish for the fish being collected with poison, is quite silly .lets look at the other end users of fish collected by the vary same bad divers.
Do we really believe that the children who eat cyanide fish choose to do so? {"no hook and line fish for me Mom , I want juiced fish tonight!"}
How about the dinner guests in the restaurants of Hong Kong? When picking out the fish in the restaurant aquarium, do we really think the dinners are seeking out the fish with poison?
There is no demand for poisoned fish , just like there is no demand for fish that have been poorly collected or handled in other ways..... Just because a some of the fish come in with Ick, does not mean there is a demand for that condition.
Inability to control that small percentage of the fish are collected in an improper manner does not translate into people wanting the fish that way.
And inability to control what other wholesalers purchase does not translate into me being responsible for their choices either.

How can you reconcile this with the well-established legal point: Ignorance of the law is not an defense?
It is illegal in the US to import and sell fish that were captured using illegal methods in the country of export. Given that fact, claiming ignorance is not a defense, Kalk.

Once again, the post reads as rationalization, with a dash of economic misunderstanding thrown in for good measure. If you cannot understand the very basics of the laws of supply and demand, again, God help you.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

What reasons do wholesalers have to suspect that Hawaiian fish are 100% collected in a legal manor? Your really expecting every single fish imported into the USA to have had a U.S Government witness present at its collection in Indonesia? :? Even one bad fish in a companies possesion can land its stock holders in Jail!
Now your talkin! What a great way to set up even the big box stores , all it will take is one bad nemo and the mom and pops can reclaim sixty percent of the market ! [Yes, I would like to return this nemo for store credit] and Bam! So what if I didnt even buy it there....the law is the law.
You want to test even fish sandwiches? The Law is the Law! How can we be certain of 100 percent compliance unless we test every single fish stick entering the USA ?
I can even sneak one into your home aquarium ! So what if you didnt even know it was there........ Your guilty and bubba your cell mate thinks you look like the little mermaid. 8O

 

[clarionreef]

Mike wrote:
Face it, if MAC hasn't gotten the three areas it was working with three years ago certified by now, they have failed in their mission.

Wow, they should give the money back to Packard et al and let someone else do it!

Its easy if you actually know what you`re doing rather then trying to fake it. I`m down in Baja Mexico now to train more divers this next few days then MAC has in 3 years!
This is simple, routine work for commercial fish dealers....
As easy and fun as I find it though ...I can`t imagine trying to do it if I didn`t do it for living already.
Of course I have the right nets with me to distribute to divers. In commercial work, there is no room for silly, half baked efforts that are doomed to fail from the get go. There is absolutely no question of failure, backsliding or any other red herring we`ve been fed by the conventional wisdom on this subject.
This is simply commercial training of commercial divers for commercial purposes. There is no other motivating force in evidence with the divers. They are poor and they want to learn to catch tropical fish to get away from the overcrowded food fish trade. This things for them....with their motivations foremost in mind.

I gain when good fish flow to the states...and I`m going to make sure that they send good stuff, in good condition, packed right and landed profitably. Since I have no need for dead fish, dead frieght and lost associated costs, its in my interest to train my guys right the first time.
Incidental to the socio economic benefits of good training are the environmental ones.
There are no drugs, crowbars or hammers in the boats ever...and if anyone wants to follow and see if they can find any damage...they are welcome to but would be wasting their time. However, since the training of collection and handling logically go first, any subsequent project based on that achievement could now go forward.

If any city people want to make surveys, evaluations, monitoring, certifications or what ever else they feel is more important then sustainable social development in other peoples countries, they are now free to go ahead. Divers are now trained and the cart is behind the horse where it belongs.

This project is cheap, fun, easy and rewarding...and to outfit and train 20 divers costs me about 50 dollars a head. These guys will produce tons of fish....in the months and years to come.
I know...I know....I should have gotten a grant to train em poorly and net-less for $10,000 dollars a head...like our saviours in MAC, but who really has that kind of nerve?
Sincerely Steve
in Loreto Baja Caifornia...
PS...
I told the trainees about MAC methodology and one guy said they should just pay the cyanide fisherman envelopes of cash to stop collecting. It would be a lot cheaper!

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Steve,

What role is playing the mexican government? Is there any reglamentation in Mexico to control this fishery?

 

[mkirda]

What reasons do wholesalers have to suspect that Hawaiian fish are 100% collected in a legal manor? Your really expecting every single fish imported into the USA to have had a U.S Government witness present at its collection in Indonesia? :? Even one bad fish in a companies possesion can land its stock holders in Jail!
Now your talkin! What a great way to set up even the big box stores , all it will take is one bad nemo and the mom and pops can reclaim sixty percent of the market ! [Yes, I would like to return this nemo for store credit] and Bam! So what if I didnt even buy it there....the law is the law.
You want to test even fish sandwiches? The Law is the Law! How can we be certain of 100 percent compliance unless we test every single fish stick entering the USA ?
I can even sneak one into your home aquarium ! So what if you didnt even know it was there........ Your guilty and bubba your cell mate thinks you look like the little mermaid. 8O

Kalk,

If there is a coherent question here somewhere, I cannot find it.
Just more squirming and including of things so far off-base that it looks quixotic at best.
I mean, c'mon... Do you really sell fish sticks in your store for hobbyists?
Because if you don't, you are insulting the RDO readership by not keeping the post on-topic. And if you do, I think you really need to re-examine your business plan.

The final statement is the most interesting admission of guilt I have read.
Kalk unwittingly admitted that he has ready access to fish that *HE KNOWS HAVE BEEN CAUGHT WITH CYANIDE*. Or wait... Maybe he was talking about sneaking cyanide-caught fish sticks that he has ready access to. :wink:

Regards.
Mike Kirda