Clove Oil

[Tropic]

Hello all,

Has anyone here ever used clove oil to capture fish or seen it in practice?
From what i understand, there is no noticable damage to coral reefs that can be directly observed. One guy i know has been using it for years, even on some of the same patch reefs and has never noticed any problems with the fish or the coral. In fact, the corals have never skipped a beat and have continued growing.I am looking to see if there have been any studies in to the physiological effects it has on the fish, and if it will in deed damage reefs.

If it turns out to be somewhat safe to use, wouldnt this be acceptable for safely stunning fish? We all know what cyanide can do, unfortunately it is convenient and effective. Nets(or possibly something better) should be what everyone is working towards but for the short term future, could this be a alternative?

Please dont light me up if i am missing something obvious here, i side with the reefs and the communities around them.

 

[Tropic]

No comments? surely someone on here knows something about this topic....

 

[PeterIMA]

There are quite a number of scientific papers concerning the effects of clove oil on fish for anaesthesia and sedation. Generally, it seems to be safe for fish. Indeed, recent papers indicate it can elimate the stress response (production of corticosteroids similar to metomidate). This is of interest since metomidate is expensive while clove oil is not. Dr. Mark Erdman published a paper on the Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin (forget which issue) several years ago suggesting the use of clove oil as a collecting tool. He stated he had collected marine shrimps of interest to the aquarium trade using clove oil in Indonesia. There are rumours of Indonesian collectors using clove oil, but I don't know how widely it is used. Some agencies (like Florida Fish and Wildlife) have used clove oil on red drum (hatchery fish being released for an enhancement program). But, FWC stopped using it when the stocked fish disappeared. Hence, there are mixed results with clove oil, that may be related to how the solutions are dissolved (in acetone or alcohol). One study in the South Pacific was successful in anaesthetizing larval damselfish without using any solvent.

AquiS is a commecial preparation made by a New Zealand company that contains isoeugonol. There is some isoequonol in clove oil, but there is more eugonol (the main agent causing the anaesthesia). In any event neither clove oil, eugonol, or isoeugonol is presently acceptable for use with food fishes. The NZ company is seeking FDA approval for the use of AquiS in the USA for aquaculture.

As far as the effect of clove oil on corals, some preliminary experiments by Dr. James Cervino indicated it was harmful. There is not much published on the effects of clove oil on corals. More research is needed before I would recommend its use as collecting tool, until its effects on corals are known and the results published in a scientific journal. The use of nets still appears to be the best alternative to the use of cyanide for collecting marine aquarium fishes.

Peter Rubec, Ph.D.

If you wish a list of clove oil papers, I can prepare on and post it. Please indicate whether you would like citations posted.

 

[Tropic]

Peter,
Please post the papers. Especially the one by Dr.James Cervino.If mixed at the right dosage and administered properly maybe there would be no impact on the coral because of dilution and water flow. When Cyanide is used, will it destroy coral tissue rapidly? Thanks for the input.

 

[PeterIMA]

Dr. Cevino published a very thorough paper on the effects of cyanide on eight general of corals and one genera of sea anemone (I was one of the co-authors) during 2003 in the Marine Pollution Bulletin. All genera of corals were detrimentally effected. You can search RDO for the discussions on this. The most common genera Acropora died after the cyanide caused the corals to first shed their symbiotic zooxanthellae (symbiotic algae) and then shed their living tissue (tunics) within 24 hours.

Dr. Cervino observed similar results using clove oil on corals in experimental aquaria. However, the results were not studied to the same detail as the cyanide study (because of the lack of research funding). The IMA helped fund the cyanide study but did not have funding to persue research on the effects of clove oil on corals. Hence, there is little published on this topic.

I believe we don't need collectors using another chemical, which perpetuates the use of squirt bottles (and possibly a return to using cyanide).

Peter Rubec

 

[Tropic]

Dr Rubec
when you say the observations were not studied to the same detail, what does this mean exactly? I am assuming you mean that both studies yeilded loss of zooxanthellae and then tissue sloughing. Could you provide a link to the work you co-authored, or upload it please. For the most part we share the same belief, however, if a complete and more thorough study revealed that it is not nearly as deadly, and damaging as cyanide is to the reefs, then i wouldn't rule it out. Nets are obviously the most responsible way to catch fish, but even then there is damage to the coral sometimes do to haste from short bottomtimes, and the refusal of use, do to the simplicity of drugs. When i dove with my friend who has been using clove oil for many years, i saw no damage to the coral, or the fish(Centropyge)despite the fact that he has been working the same areas in a sustainable manner, for many years. From what he has told me, he has never noticed any damage or stress responses from the coral longterm,and from what i witnessed, i agree. The corals were growing vigorously. Furthermore, the fish were removed from the reef without breaking anything.By the time the fish were decompressed they were totally alert and very active.We brought them to the holding facility and within a couple of hours, they were feeding.None of these fish are dead, as i have had them at my facility for quite some time. Obviously if you administer chemicals of any kind into a aquarium that are either toxic or at volatile levels, then acropora will slough, this isnt the case in the physical enviroment with clove oil. Cyanide is deadly, i have purchased the results(not intentionally), and i will not work with suppliers who practice this. Correct me if i am wrong, but the reason cyanide should not be used is because it damages corals, and the fish; both of which do not seem to apply using clove oil, based on what i have seen. This should be looked into in greater detail both in aquaria and in the field.

Thanks
Eric

 

[Tropic]

Dr Rubec
when you say the observations were not studied to the same detail, what does this mean exactly? I am assuming you mean that both studies yeilded loss of zooxanthellae and then tissue sloughing. Could you provide a link to the work you co-authored, or upload it please. For the most part we share the same belief, however, if a complete and more thorough study revealed that it is not nearly as deadly, and damaging as cyanide is to the reefs, then i wouldn't rule it out. Nets are obviously the most responsible way to catch fish, but even then there is damage to the coral sometimes do to haste from short bottomtimes, and the refusal of use, do to the simplicity of drugs. When i dove with my friend who has been using clove oil for many years, i saw no damage to the coral, or the fish(Centropyge)despite the fact that he has been working the same areas in a sustainable manner, for many years. From what he has told me, he has never noticed any damage or stress responses from the coral longterm,and from what i witnessed, i agree. The corals were growing vigorously. Furthermore, the fish were removed from the reef without breaking anything.By the time the fish were decompressed they were totally alert and very active.We brought them to the holding facility and within a couple of hours, they were feeding.None of these fish are dead, as i have had them at my facility for quite some time. Obviously if you administer chemicals of any kind into a aquarium that are either toxic or at volatile levels, then acropora will slough, this isnt the case in the physical enviroment with clove oil. Cyanide is deadly, i have purchased the results(not intentionally), and i will not work with suppliers who practice this. Correct me if i am wrong, but the reason cyanide should not be used is because it damages corals, and the fish; both of which do not seem to apply using clove oil, based on what i have seen. This should be looked into in greater detail both in aquaria and in the field.

Thanks
Eric

 

[Kalkbreath]

I believe we don't need collectors using another chemical, which perpetuates the use of squirt bottles (and possibly a return to using cyanide).

Peter Rubec

And I guess smokers dont really need the patch................either keep smoking or cold turkey.
{Sounds like RJ Reynolds double talk in the 1980s}
Why would Cervino stop mid testing just because his grant ran out?
Perhaps neither party liked the results?
or the real focus has always been about the grants not the reefs?

 

[Anonymous]

Perhaps it was a side project and he couldn't devote the time to it that it truly needed, or he had to attend another more pressing matter. Maybe he wanted to continue, but his employement did offer the needed time away?

Half full?

 

[Kalkbreath]

I dont buy that way of looking for it.
If he did carry out some tests , he should have published the results.
Stopping when the results dont go as planned is an all too common mechanism to keep raps on the truth.
Just like the cyanide tests being conducted in aquariums instead of in the field........pointless waste of grant/research money is all to common the result when non dedicated scientists are behind these endeavors.
Clove oil research should be placed ahead of cyanide research.
Its like studying the danger of candles causing house fires instead of putting the bulk of the limited available funds tward finding a safer way to light ones home........."the light bulb"

 

[Kalkbreath]

Half full?

The half full or half empty question is as follows:
|Depending on glasses last state, {more full or more empty}.
It goes to follow that :
starting with less and ending with more is = "half full" or "filled'
starting at full and ending at the half way point = half empty or "half emptied"
If the observer does not know the original state of the glass prior to now,
The glass must be considered half empty because during the half second it took the observer to think of the question , the contents would have evaporated at least to some micro degree.
If the glass contents is frozen then the glass is half full due to the increase in volume during the freezing process.

If the current glass contents is sand then the glass is half empty due to the settling effects of particles.
And so on and so on.
If the scientist..I mean "observer" is not willing to seek out the true current state of the glass, he probobly should not be the one asking whether the glass is half full.
There is always a means to find the answer, its just that rarely is the observer consummate enough to find the answer.
Lastly, the glass itself is actualy a liquid! and there for is ever so slowly melting down and losing its shape. Ever notice how in really old glass window pains the glass is thicker at the bottom?
So every "glass' is half full as it slowly melts down and the top becomes lower.
Or if the glass is upside down.......blah blah blah

 

[PeterIMA]

First, The IMA provided a $10,000 grant to James Cervino and he assembled a team of coral scientists that studied the effects of cyanide on corals. The study cost over $40,000 and was conducted while James Cervino was working on his Ph.D. (on another topic coral diseases). Hence, he went into debt to do a study that was needed. He was not contracted to study the effects of clove oil on corals (or fish) and he did not have the time to do it.

As I stated, he did some preliminary testing where he exposed corals to clove oil. We discussed it on the phone, and he was interested in getting another grant from the IMA. The IMA did not have the funds to support the research. Dr. Cervino now has a faculty position at New York University. Perhaps the MAC could contract him to do a study on the effects of clove oil on corals. If the trade has funding they should fund research in this area.



Peter Rubec

 

[clarionreef]

Or...
I think the trade should just fund net training for a change.
As everyone knows who works with Filipino net collectors abroad....there is scarcely a need for a new magic as the nets work just fine.
In working abroad, the 70 or so Filipino netsman use nets, only nets and catch too many fish.
The problem has been solved whereever business folks employ netsman to do the job. Hiring netsman to just work....teaches other fisherman what is possible and its so very cheap. Pays for itself in product in fact. In this way...net training is free.

The Filipino netsman deployed around the world today are growing the skills and imparting them as they go. When they return home....the growth and training of family and friends continues still.
This phenomena alone has now eclipsed the paid, foreign groups on the job and just keeps going on its own momentum.
This chain reaction is a purely business inspired one and the envy of NGOs everywhere.
Steve


Steve

 

[Tropic]

Peter,
i am not a scientist but i surely could yeild some preliminary results here at my place.I can get clove oil, i have tons of corals especially acropora.It wont be official, but surely food for thought. Field application is really where some studies need to be done.

Steve,
I have alot of respect for your point of view but i still feel there are reasons why nets are not being used by everyone. If the problem was the actual nets themselves, then why have they not been purchased by the private sector and handed directly to the fishermen.If the problem is training, then we need more teachers which could once again be covered by the private sector. I dont know why all of this has to be administrated by places such as MAC or any other NGO. I am in the industry...i would put money into this, if i knew it was going directly to the problem

On a side note, the first time i went diving to catch fish with a net, i caught some, without training, just common sense. Barrier nets, hand nets, and beater sticks are pretty self explanatory. Sure there are many fish witch take style and understanding, but i still think that any motivated person that had desire to learn, could easily do it on his own.

My real question is, why have nets been spoke about so long, and we still have all of the problems. Please do not only point fingers at the NGO...be realistic. Drugs= simple. Drugs= guarantee overhead will be covered. This is why.
Cyanide is bad
nets are good
Clove Oil?? verdict is still out

 

[Anonymous]

Beater stick? That sounds simply awful. You talking about a "goosing" stick or "poker"?

 

[clarionreef]

No Filipino is using drugs in Tonga where they catch too many angelfishes if you let them....Why not?
None use it in Vanuatau...where they catch the smallest of flame angels in live coral....Why not?
None use it in Belize where they catch little royal grammas up in the holes...why not?

Its too simple.
The companies there supply nets and policies.
You wanna get paid, you do it our way. Besides, the alledged temptation to backslide fades away when the divers are trained correctly to commercial standards...not other standards.
Catchin with 100% nets is no big deal except to non collectors much in the same way fixing a transmission is impossible ...and Greek...to most of us.
The art, the craft grows with every outing.
There is nuance, tricks of the trade and little secrets all commercials learn on their own when set on the right track.
Putting them on the right track is simple and should be the responsibility of the business folks everywhere.
In Indo and the Philippines however, there is a habit, a tradition of collecting issues determined by the least capable; the exporters and their middlemen....who sold the juice to the fisherman and never provided nettings.
Now, if they really want, they can provide the nettings. First phoney nettings as it it their nature to do so...but eventually as the divers clamor more and more for the real thing....they will be provided.
Net Funds have broken the log-jam and been of great service in showing the way.
Several importers have like-wise been doing this and as such have proven it possible. This in turn embarrasses they who don't do it.
Divers may leave an exporter to get one who does provide the nets...and find one who does.

This multiplier effect has always been there...but slowly growing.
I always wanted to hasten it with the help of NGOs....but it seemed that the only multiplier effect they wanted to feel was in their own bank accounts.
The joke is...this slowly growing multiplier effect is still the greatest achievement there is on this reform front and it grew on nearly nothing .
Today, the guys are all over the world!!!
Imagine if we had just a little real funding to go with it???
Wow!
Steve

 

[Tropic]

Nope.Beater stick. The place i collected was pretty perverse :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

Factcheck;
Of the 70 or so Filipino netsman working around the world, all of them were trained before MAC was even founded!
What does that confirm ? What does that tell you???
Steve

 

[Tropic]

Steve,
you make good points, and i agree with you. What do you think about clove oil? surely you have seen it in use......any problems with what you have seen?

 

[Anonymous]

Not Steve, but I know his answer. It'll read something like this "what person<edit> needs to use drugs to collect fish?".