Clove Oil

[PeterIMA]

Steve, I think you understand that I am in favor of net collecting and against the use of drugs (including cyanide, quinaldine, and clove oil etc).
I agree that net-trainings can be done and should be done by experts (like yourself or others in the trade). However, there are others who can do net-trainings associated with NGOs. I don't care who does it. Obviously, the MAC trainers are incompetent. Otherwise, we would have seen Certified net-caught fishes in the supply chain by now.

However, you need to focus on the fact that the net-trainings involve more than just teaching collectors how to use nets. Even, your earliest trainings involved spending time teaching collectors how to decompress the fish, how to properly hold them, and how to pack and ship fishes to the exporters. All these things are included in what you call "net-trainings". I agree that amateurs who don't know the details can do more harm than good.

But, we also need to address the issues of sustainability. This means fewer, but better more highly skilled collectors. While you push for more net trainings, you need to consider how many collectors each area can sustain and see that the trainings are tied to local management of marine resources for the benefit of the local communities. We also need to consider that the collectors are not the only fishers that need trainings and/or alternative livelihoods. A more holistic approach is needed that you seem to ignore. Otherwise, the muncipalities in the source countries will continue to ban collecting (since cyanide use destroys the fisheries for everyone by destroying the coral reefs).

Peter

 

[Tropic]

Peter,
I think lumping clove oil in with cyanide and quinaldine is unfair to this discussion.Cyanide is toxic poison, quinaldine causes fish to blow there guts out there a$$ and clove oil has not been really explored all too much.

 

[mark@mac]

There also needs to be much stronger education in the schools, especially the coastal area schools, to teach the dangers of using poison to catch fish, to teach about ecosystems and how they can crash due to no management and desctructive use.......

 

[mark@mac]

There also needs to be much stronger education in the schools, especially the coastal area schools, to teach the dangers of using poison to catch fish, to teach about ecosystems and how they can crash due to no management and desctructive use.......

 

[PeterIMA]

Mark,

I find it ironic that you are advocating the programs that the IMA was doing before it got involved with the MAC. Some persons associated with the MAC back-stabbed the IMA. The MAC took over some of its programs (like net-trainings). They did not take over the coastal education programs that IMA was doing, or the coastal clean ups. Likewise, there is now no organization monitoring the live food fish trade (although the MAC decided they could "certify"that trade as well). No other organization has assumed the functions just listed.

Someone stated that Vaughan Pratt got what he diserved. I disagree. I am happy to see that those in the MAC that had a hand in back-stabbing the IMA now are unemployed.

Peter Rubec

 

[clarionreef]

Peter,
Huh huh...
"A more holistic approach is needed that you seem to ignore."
Code word...
a complication of the process to involve so many important factors as to overwhelm the welcome into the village and prevent it conversions to sustainable practices.

It is w/ a clear understanding of the issues that I start w/ the Trojan horse of livlihood enhancement first and limit it a bit to that.
Handling, diver safety and ecology are all in the training plan, but linking its liftoff to too many agendas keep it from lifting off.Once the guys are trained and doing well....its so much easier to bring on reef surveys, capacity building, certification, socio-eco sensitivity training , GMADs list of 'honey-dos' etc.

The fisherman are not our friends yet until we earn it and that comes from adressing their agenda first. This is where MAC and others had it totally backwards.
The fishers must trust us based on our followthru with their primary need and thats livlihood enhancement thru catching more, better and happier fish.
Imagine 6 months later how well prepped such villages would then be for the rest of a more holistic mission?
Steve

 

[mark@mac]

Peter,

I was never involved in anything having to do with the "back-stabbing" of IMA. I have only heard the stories from one side.

I applaud what positive efforts were made by the IMA and in fact have a copy of the CREST book IMA produced with plans to use that info again in Phils. I am participating in a teachers workshop in May, being held in Leyte. Is there any other useful literature or materials you are aware of that are not being used anymore?

My position has ALWAYS been one of education and sustainable use/development with regard to our oceans and lands....

 

[PeterIMA]

Tropic, Why am I being unfair?

Lots of things are banned until they can be proved to be harmless. You yourself admitted that more research is needed. I don't see the aquaculture industry allowed to use clove oil or other agents like quinaldine. The only anaesthetic allowed by the FDA for food fish in MS-222. The aquarium trade should not advocate or use something until it has been proven to be harmless (by proper scientific study). Am I supposed to believe you or an anonymous collector? What evidence did you provide? Did you even identify yourself to this forum?

Peter

 

[PeterIMA]

Mark, I am not accusing you of being one of those who back-stabbed the IMA. I accept you as being sincere and honest.

The IMA reached over 1,000,000 school children with the CREST manuals (there is both a teacher's manual and student manual). Dr. Pratt recently informed me that they are still being used in many schools in PI by the teachers (although they are no longer being printed).

If you want copies of some of IMA's manuals (LEAP, CREST, BNC, several coloring books etc.) send me a PM with your mailing address.

Peter

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, I agree that it is best to train first and follow up with other programs (as part of the holistic approach). It is tragic that no one seems to be willing to fund net-trainings the way you want to see them done.

Peter

 

[Tropic]

My name is Eric Koch, if it matters, i am not hiding anything....just looking for additional information from people like you. Unfortunately, no one has really had any solid advice on clove oil....including you. Quinaldine was what my friend originally used and from the pics of what i saw...it wasnt good.How can something be proven good or bad when scientist automatically lump clove oil in with cyanide. Am i supposed to just agree with you because you "think" its bad, even though my eyes tell me something different! No offense to you, and i commend you on what has been accomplished, but you, yourself did not finish the study and conclude that it should be admonished like cyanide.This topic is about clove oil....not MAC or IMA.

Steve,
Can you please shed some light on this being that you are on the industry side of fish collection? I am curious to what you have seen, we are not talking about nets....that topic fills the majority of this forum.

 

[clarionreef]

Hi Eric,
Clove oil still comes out of a bottle...a squirt bottle.
That alone makes it an always suspect thing in the eyes of any observer or law enforcer.
I myself would never have anything to do any agent sent out of a squirt bottle.
I'm prejudiced against squirt bottle .
Steve

 

[Tropic]

Steve,
thats it? i am prejudice against squirt bottles? What if sodium bicarbonate stunned fish if squirted out of a bottle? would you still respond in the same manner? Just because something is used in a bottle doesnt mean it is like cyanide. In fact, i would be willing to bet that if you offered cyanide users clove oil(if it was proven safe) they would prefer to use something that wouldnt danger the reef, the fish, or themselves. Clove oil is readily available throughout Indo and i am pretty sure that there is a abundance of cloves there being that they smoke cloves!

I would think that clove oil mixed with methylated spirits would not harm the reefs. The alcohol would be consumed by bacteria, and the oil would float to the surface until broaken down and consumed. We already know that clove material is littered all throughout the the Indopacific because locals refuse to throw their clove cigarettes in the trash and just flip them in the water!

Not trying to provoke anyone here, just looking for some honest, unbiased, information on why this has not been looked into thoroughly before pulling the trigger on the anti-cyanide movement.

If clove oil is found to be safe, would anyone here support it?

Why are many people here so close minded?

What is the objective when catching fish? no damage to reefs, or the fish, correct?

Remember you can be anti cyanide and still support research on other potentially safe "drugs"

regards
Eric

 

[clarionreef]

Eric,
The cover up of cyanide fishing with asumed clove oil use may well be a serious consideration.
Wether its safe or not...nets are safe as well and nets are simply what we use all over the world anyway.
The only places that seem to have an issue with this is Indo and the Philippines....borne out of twin 20 year dictatorships and worthless fisheries departments. [Although the Philippines is steadily changing.]
Nets are cheap...durable and last .
What does clove oil cost per weeks usage I wonder? Do you have an idea? How bout a mixing agent to render it solvent? Any idea?
Steve

 

[Tropic]

Let me pull up some facts about clove oil, since no one else will.Give me a bit, as i have some work to do.

 

[PeterIMA]

Eric, It takes about 40 mg/l of clove oil to anaesthetize fish. Solubility is an issue. The company making AquiS has a product that is already dissolved (but it is expensive at least in the USA). I got a free sample, but was told (several years ago) that the cost for AQUIS was $200 per gallon.

I think there are cheaper alternatives (like isoeugonol purchased from the cosmetics industry) that might be cost-effective and applicable for fish collection. I certainly think clove oil derivatives need to be looked into.

Personally, I was interested in its use as a sedative in shipping bags (e.g. Bag Buddies tablets made by Jungle Labs) have been used successfully for shipping freshwater fishes. Recent studies I did with Bag Buddies in the Philippines did not indicate they worked to sedate marine fishes (at the dosages that I tested).

So, clove oil needs further study. If you do any evaluations, I would be interested in seeing your results.


Peter Rubec

 

[Tropic]

Thanks Peter, here is some interesting information I just found....i encourage everyone to read:
http://www.spc.org.nc/coastfish/News/lrf/5/1Clove.htm

This guy hits the nail on the head in my opinion.

 

[clarionreef]

OK,
A drug for the non net proficient diver is proposed;
What is its cost per use in a realistic commercial situation?
This is the primary question you need to find answer for.
The experiences of scientists using it in research paid for by others is not too good an argument for daily use by commercial...read that poor fisherman.

The drug plus cutting agent = the cost of it.
The cost of it must not be much more than cyanide for it to carry a natural attraction to cyanide fishers.
If it cost many times more then cyanide then its DOA. as;
1] divers cannot afford it and
2] if its available for free, they'll sell it.
Steve

 

[Tropic]

Steve,
Obviously what you are saying about cost is true....i am working on it.Effectiveness in comparison, is another issue as well. I have never seen cyanide in use and cant comment on effectiveness. Have you ever seen it in use?

Methylated spirits is what my friend uses to wet the crystal(clove oil) and then adds seawater. As he is using it, when he runs low he opens the bottle to let in more seawater and it still works the same. The reason i bring this up is apparently a little goes a very long way.

Let me get some numbers together.

thanks

 

[clarionreef]

Yes,
I have seen it in use. A lot.
A couple of months worth working off a cyanide boat with Filipino divers.
Too much in fact.
I wish I hadn't seen it. Then I could be far more accomodating about it as with most of the trade.
Steve
Nets are far superior by the way...
We herd fishes with nets...not just poke in holes for them one at a time.
And for the ones in the holes; 1/6th inch square mesh clear nettting and a tickler wand.