Clove Oil

[Tropic]

How did the fish react when hit? did it have to be flushed out? did it stop them in their tracks?

 

[clarionreef]

Eric,
It was terrible.
They convulsed in spasmodic contractions, they ran about wildly as if in pain, they ran into coral heads, a miniatus grouper drifted upward til tthe bladder filled w/ air and propelled it faster . It floated on the surface as I retrieved it.
Fishes spun around sometimes and then lie still.
Many that we scooped up remained inert in the catch bags and recovered a half an hour to an hour later.
Many did not recover and were thrown over the side trailing seagulls in our wake.
My job on the boat was to follow the fisherman and gather fishes as they went thru the reefs.
These...and a few years of other memories stay with me, clear to this day.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Tropic, Why am I being unfair?

Lots of things are banned until they can be proved to be harmless. You yourself admitted that more research is needed. I don't see the aquaculture industry allowed to use clove oil or other agents like quinaldine. The only anaesthetic allowed by the FDA for food fish in MS-222. The aquarium trade should not advocate or use something until it has been proven to be harmless (by proper scientific study). Am I supposed to believe you or an anonymous collector? What evidence did you provide? Did you even identify yourself to this forum?

Peter

There is nothing safe about filtered cigarettes or nicotine gum. But they are better then the full strength thing.
You wean people off the really bad stuff with less harmfull kinda bad stuff.
Which would be better for the reefs, cyanide pellets or squirt bottles?
low concentration cyanide squirts or pellets thrown over board?
The answer does not have to be a linear approach.
It would be like demanding that every one stop smoking cold turkey.
offering an alternative without demanding it be totally harmless can at times be the only way to change human habits like smokig or squirt fishing.

 

[danieldm]

However, there are others who can do net-trainings associated with NGOs. I don't care who does it. Obviously, the MAC trainers are incompetent. Otherwise, we would have seen Certified net-caught fishes in the supply chain by now.

A dozen or so posts back, Dr. Rubec made the statement above. The speaker at out MARS meeting this month, was Drew Weiner (Director of Reef Protection International). He made a statement during his presentation, and I'm paraphrasing here "although MAC certified fish are not yet available to the US market, they are available in the European market".

Does anyone know anything about this, I would be very interested in hearing from Mark (aka mark@mac).

Marc

 

[Douglas S Lehman]

Hello from Chicago
Mike at the Living Sea has 6 40 gallon aquariums of MAC fish. That was last week. Lets see if they keep coming in ?

 

[danieldm]

Mike at the Living Sea has 6 40 gallon aquariums of MAC fish. That was last week. Lets see if they keep coming in ?

Isn't one of the big things about MAC certified fish is that there is supposed to be a documented, verifiable paper trail from collector to retailer? I'd love to see a paper trail for the fish from the Living Sea.

Doug, by that statement I am in no way disputing what you said in your post. It's just that I was told a little over a week ago that none are in the US, and the many posts in this forum have stated that there have been no actual certified fish reaching the US.

 

[clarionreef]

Doug,
Are they Fiji species?
Steve

 

[mkirda]

Why would Cervino stop mid testing just because his grant ran out?
Perhaps neither party liked the results?
or the real focus has always been about the grants not the reefs?

Kalk,

I am somewhat familiar with what went on.

Clove oil has been suggested for quite a while.
There have been documented effects on corals, none of them good. Some spotty bleaching, followed by seeming recovery. In other words, much less effect than cyanide, where bleaching is typically followed by tissue death.

The evidence is all observational on the reef stuff, simple to deduce cause and effect.

When it comes to strict scientific experimental evidence that would conclusively prove that clove oil would be detrimental to corals, the controlled experiments have not been done (to my knowledge).

Grants are meant to fund specific research. Controlled science requires a lot of time, preparation, space, and money. If these are allocated for what the grant specified, that would explain why the money wasn't spent for something outside the grant, your insinuations not withstanding.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Doug,
Are they Fiji species?
Steve

Doug told me that Mike didn't have them labelled with their origin.

I haven't seen them personally.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Douglas S Lehman]

Hello Steve
From my limited knowledge, they could be from anywhere in the Pacific Ocean ! 4 Orange spot file fish, 2 Moorish idols, 8 huge Green chromis, a couple of sailfin tangs Z, veliferum, toss in a few clowns (?) a trigger or two and a Half black anglefish. A real mix but nothing that jumps out at ya!

 

[danieldm]

4 Orange spot file fish, 2 Moorish idols

Really? Nothing says quality like fish that have almost no chance of surviving. In my opinion, MAC has absolutly no credibility as a "reeform" organization if they are including species such as this in their certification process.

Marc

 

[Tropic]

File fish, moorish idol.....that is great! :roll:
Anyway, back on topic before you bury the point of this thread...
200USD for 20liter drums out of Sydney and apparently cheaper when bought direct through Singapore. In addition, it is readily available throughout Indonesia and the solvent is Bensine which is also very cheap.
Bulk rates are available.

 

[danieldm]

I don't know anything about using clove oil in the wild for collection. I have used it successfully on several occasions to settle seahorses before force feeding them. I have not seen any long term affects.

Any of you science guys/gals...are you aware of any test that would be available to check clove oil concentrations? I'd love to see someone do a controlled test to see at what concentrations various coral react.

Marc

 

[mkirda]

200USD for 20liter drums out of Sydney and apparently cheaper when bought direct through Singapore. In addition, it is readily available throughout Indonesia and the solvent is Bensine which is also very cheap.
Bulk rates are available.

$200 is ridiculously expensive for fishermen.

It is also an import for the Philippines from everything I've been able to find out... Cyanide is a lot cheaper.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Tropic]

Me too.

Peter.....what concentrations did you guys do in your study?

Mkirda,
why does it cost so much to do studies like this?

The fish i have that were caught with clove oil are very healthy, and active.

 

[PeterIMA]

Tropic,
I am not sure what you were quoting costs on. Was it AquiS or was it clove oil dissolved in Benzene? If clove oil is dissolved in alcohol (either ethyl or methyl acohol) the alcohol is expensive. If it is dissolved in Benzene, you should know that benzene is highly carcinogenic (can cause leukemia). A number of benzene derivatives such as toluene are also highly carcinogenic.

If the collectors need to dissolve the clove oil in alcohol, I would be concerned that they might drink the alcohol (rather than using it with the clove oil). Methyl alcohol is poisonous and can cause blindness.

Nets are cheaper and we know they are not poisonous and do not cause cancer.

Peter

 

[mkirda]

Mkirda,
why does it cost so much to do studies like this?

Cost of lab space. You are basically running at something like $3 per square foot, plus additional overhead (Electricity, salt, tanks, etc.) if doing this in a proper lab. Someone could do it on the cheap in their basement, but most grad students don't have the time, space or the funds to do this on their own.

If you want to know the answers, my suggestion would be to set up a number of tanks and have at it. I'm sure Peter would be happy to offer suggestions on how best to run the experiment, to get you to cross over into real science.
My suggestion would be to start fragging a number of corals, all from the same mother colony. You will need any number of replicates to make this study statistically significant, so I'd guess something on the order of 100 frags each of two or three indicator species. I'd suggest branching Acros, with maybe a couple of branching Montiporas (i.e blue tang settling locations).

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Tropic]

Peter-
Bensine is Indonesian for Methylated Alcohol aka metho or ethanol....it is made from sugar.....it isnt very expensive and readily available throughout Indonesia


Keep in mind, once the oil has been mixed it can be diluted several times, still be effective, and you are starting with a minimal amount in the first place.20liters could be purchased either by the exporter, a group of fishermen, or the importer. This amount would last a long time.....and they do sell it in larger increments, and if you buy in bulk it gets cheaper. The price i listed was a one off price my friend payed in Singapore.


Mkirda.

I was being sarcastic. I know how much it cost to run a facility, as i own one. The outcome of a study dealing with clove oil is silly in my opinion because you already know the outcome in closed aquaria. If you were to urinate too much in your aquarium, corals will peel! :lol:

Field work is really what is needed and that is expensive.

I wonder if Arak would dissolve this stuff?

 

[PeterIMA]

Eric, I have Indonesian collectors with whom I am collaborating who could test the clove oil in the field, if you are interested.

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

Mike at the Living Sea has 6 40 gallon aquariums of MAC fish. That was last week. Lets see if they keep coming in ?

that I was told a little over a week ago that none are in the US, and the many posts in this forum have stated that there have been no actual certified fish reaching the US.

Winner winner You were told. Who told you, Drew W. of RPI. RPI, a funding enemy of MAC. Hmmm. enemy saying bad things about their enemy?