A
Anonymous
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vitz":cgtizk18 said:
Oh, come on now, Vitz...that's picking nits. No one is going to spend that kind of cash to get water checked, on e-tailer's or customer's end. Not a viable argument, IMHO...
Peace,
Chip
The Irony
- Thread starter Rascal
- Start date
Oh, come on now, Vitz...that's picking nits. No one is going to spend that kind of cash to get water checked, on e-tailer's or customer's end. Not a viable argument, IMHO...
Peace,
Chip
A
Anonymous
Guest
Well, the particular one I was alluding to was Apex Aquarium in Culver. I'm sure almost everyone knows it - it was used for the petshop scenes in Deuce Bigelow.
Is it really so hard to believe a local shop's water conditions could be so bad that they frankly couldn't keep a single coral alive for longer then a week or two? I assure you that was very much the case here. Of course, I haven't been there since about 2001... I have no idea if what I'm saying is still the case, or if the shop is even still in operation.
Mostly because I have. Walked into the average internet store, that is.
No. I'm steadfast that the worst internet operation I've ever seen with my own two eyes was 100% better then the worst LFS I've ever seen with my own two eyes. I'm steadfast that the average internet operation maintains a level of quality at least as high as the average LFS, if not moreso.
Back in 2001?
A lot has changed in the last five years. Your using a one store in Culver as a yard stick to judge the remaining 5000 LFS nation wide?
Why not Aquarium City, Tongs, jeffs? The LA basin is a perfect example of nice real brick and mortar stores yet you choose to remember a store from five to ten years ago as your personal reason for buying fish over the web? Sounds a little fishy.
You did say you design web stores?
A lot has changed in the last five years. Your using a one store in Culver as a yard stick to judge the remaining 5000 LFS nation wide?
Why not Aquarium City, Tongs, jeffs? The LA basin is a perfect example of nice real brick and mortar stores yet you choose to remember a store from five to ten years ago as your personal reason for buying fish over the web? Sounds a little fishy.
You did say you design web stores?
E-tailers do not have acclimation procedures ? Come on. Don't care for their fish or care what happens should they die? Here is one example of acclimation procedures. http://www.mknwaves.com/index.asp?PageA ... ustom&ID=1
We also make sure that we can help with any system and Illness issues as well. Of course we are B&M as well, but you need to delineate pure e-tailers or B&M's with websites. There is a HUGE difference between the two.
We also make sure that we can help with any system and Illness issues as well. Of course we are B&M as well, but you need to delineate pure e-tailers or B&M's with websites. There is a HUGE difference between the two.
Yes, Kalk. It really is a conspiracy. I am out to get you. Incidentally, I was also behind the Kennedy assasination, hired those two guys who lip-synched for Milli Vanilli, and was the mastermind behind the cancellation of Star Trek.
You got me, man. My plan was brilliant, yet your keen wit and perspicuity has pierced to the very heart of my cunning plan. Also, the fact that you're wearing a tinfoil hat prevented the mind altering rays emitted by my fleet of satellites from affecting you. I'd have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for those meddling kids.
KIRK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There's basically six LFS that I have been to in the greater Sacramento area. #1 should have been closed by the SPCA, #2 is the one I quoted earlier as dumping the entire fish order into the same bucket, #3 charges $150 for a "pair" of occelaris clowns that just met that day (and from their size they are both name Madge), #4 has terrible customer service, has never asked a customer about their tanks, and the livestock is very hit/miss, #5 is a small store run by a husband/wife team and they have some of the healthiest fish and systems that I have ever seen in a LFS. #6 is the store I drive 30 miles past every other store to get to. They have the best & healthiest selection of coral & fish in town. They could do some work on their customer service skills if you're a customer that they don't know.
I dont think it is fair to characterize basically every B&M based upon your personal B&M experiences. I also have been within many of the LA etail operations & wholesalers, but it has been about two years. I've never walked into a B&M store and watched them count out 500+, 1000+ DOA fish to photograph as proof for the tax deduction. I've done that at etailers, and at wholesalers.
Frankly, I think I'm being a hell of a lot fairer to the B&Ms then Kalk is being to the e-tailers. I've been in hundreds if not thousands of LFS, all across this country and in four others, besides. I don't paint every B&M with the same brush, I just maintain (as most hobbyists will, if asked) that there are an awful lot of bad LFS out there. Even in your example, a minimum 50% of those on your list fall into that category, another 16% are "hit and miss", and another 16% (the one you describe as the best of the lot) you describe essentially as having attitude problems. I think it's silly to think that the average etailer customer is buying from an etailer simply for the price; if there weren't other reasons for hobbyists not caring to do business with their LFS', I doubt guys like Kalk would feel so threatened by them.
I mean, really. Who doesn't prefer to be able to browse the real thing to looking at photos? Who likes waiting on shipping, not to mention paying for it and making sure to be there (on a week day, in the vast majority of cases) when it's delivered? Yet etailers popularity continues to sky rocket, despite the obvious hassles - and even when the product they offer is not competitive, price wise, with what LFS carry. Morgan Lidster and Inland Aquatics. The guys selling captive-raised dwarf angels for hundreds of bucks each. The old solomons farms, before they shuffled off this mortal coil. Steve Tyree's limited edition specimens... the ones that go for ridiculous money, and have a two year waiting list besides. Just to name a few. Clearly, it's not all about price.
cjdevito":24thfkyy said:
I couldn't agree more with this post. I, too, have been in hundreds of LFS in this country, and also Canada. The simple truth is that the vast majority of them are horrible. I think it was jenn that mentioned Aquarium Services stores earlier. Big bad etailer that they are, they are the some of the nicest looking, most profitable stores in the province of Ontario. And anyone that lives there will tell you that they are not the cheapest by any means...not even close. There are maybe 6 decent stores not named Aquarium services in the Toronto market, and this is a city with a population of 4.5 million people!
So if *most* LFS are horrible, what makes the consumer believe that the facility they cannot see is any better?
Because they can't see it, they rely on slick advertising that leads them to believe it's a clean shiny facility where everybody knows what they are doing and everybody cares.
There's no evidence to support that a garage-based etail facility or a wholesale drop-shipper or anything in between is any better or worse than a LFS.
And like I mentioned, the public can SEE the LFS and therefore are more open to scrutiny.
I still fail to see the logic in that comparison. Comparing something that you can see (LFS) to something you can't see (etailer) makes no sense at all to me.
And by and large if you think etail is NOT about price, think again. Sure there are a few willing to pay big money for rare and unusual stuff, but most just want the bread and butter (creatures and dry goods) at the cheapest possible price.
Jenn
Because they can't see it, they rely on slick advertising that leads them to believe it's a clean shiny facility where everybody knows what they are doing and everybody cares.
There's no evidence to support that a garage-based etail facility or a wholesale drop-shipper or anything in between is any better or worse than a LFS.
And like I mentioned, the public can SEE the LFS and therefore are more open to scrutiny.
I still fail to see the logic in that comparison. Comparing something that you can see (LFS) to something you can't see (etailer) makes no sense at all to me.
And by and large if you think etail is NOT about price, think again. Sure there are a few willing to pay big money for rare and unusual stuff, but most just want the bread and butter (creatures and dry goods) at the cheapest possible price.
Jenn
I think in some caes, it's that they believe it can't be worse.
Seriously, that is where the long guarantees come in to play. The consumer, tired of the poor selection, bad attitude, high prices, or the long drive, seeks an alternative. I'm not trying to say that all etailers are great. I think there are good and bad, just like with B&M. Yes, they have effective "slick" advertising, but no more slick than I have seen from some B&M stores.
Yes, the B&M are more open to scrutiny. That is inherent with a retail business. And yet, with the proliferation of online boards sucha s this, the etailers are themselves opened to scrutiny, granted not as much as the B&M's, but scrutiny nonetheless.
How long do you think some of these places would last if they were shipping substandard livestock? Hardly a day goes by without complaints of one kind or another about most of the etailers in the RC vendor forum, yet I hardly ever see complaints about B&M's in there...
Seriously, that is where the long guarantees come in to play. The consumer, tired of the poor selection, bad attitude, high prices, or the long drive, seeks an alternative. I'm not trying to say that all etailers are great. I think there are good and bad, just like with B&M. Yes, they have effective "slick" advertising, but no more slick than I have seen from some B&M stores.
Yes, the B&M are more open to scrutiny. That is inherent with a retail business. And yet, with the proliferation of online boards sucha s this, the etailers are themselves opened to scrutiny, granted not as much as the B&M's, but scrutiny nonetheless.
How long do you think some of these places would last if they were shipping substandard livestock? Hardly a day goes by without complaints of one kind or another about most of the etailers in the RC vendor forum, yet I hardly ever see complaints about B&M's in there...
Well I don't usually frequent the vendor forums... but I've seen plenty of threads slamming LFS - perhaps I'm just a bit more sensitive to them.
I just find it interesting that so many paint such a grim picture of most LFS. If they are all as bad as all that, how do they stay in business?
Jenn
I just find it interesting that so many paint such a grim picture of most LFS. If they are all as bad as all that, how do they stay in business?
Jenn
TuskFish":356h173n said:
Are you referring to the vendors feedback forum and not the vendors forums? Just look in the general/responsible reefkeeping forums you'll see the all if not most of bad lfs stories there. Now if you complain in the vendors special fourm, you get reported and most likely banned. Sheesh.
I think when tuskfish, cjdevito and danieldm talk about bad lfs, you should also mention if it's a small full service PET store, stictly lfs or a big box chain store. There's a world of difference in all of those. I've found that as a general rule, big box stores are the worst of the worst while the smaller full service pet stores or the small town Pet stores have the tendency to be understaffed and unknowledgeble about sw while the stricly LFS is a better/best place to shop. There are of course exceptions to the rule.
Had you ever had the chance to hit Dizzy's, Jenn's, Kalk's business or Inland Aquatics, I don't think you'd lump LFS all together.
Personally, I believe that guarantees and sw fish don't belong together. It just gives people a reason NOT to care for their purchases. JMO
JennM":1znh6bp7 said:
Jenn, between you and JT you know as well as I do that if they're horrid businesses, they CAN and DO stay in business.
See : Crever's Creatures, Rome NY...going on it's 9th year with the same old crappy husbandry and lack of knowledge of amost the entire staff.
Peace,
Chip
knowse":1qcziabr said:
I am referring to the vendor forum, not the individual vendors forums. I haven't really checked out the other forum you mention, but will do so.
I think you mistake what I am saying, knowse. I do know there are some great LFS stores out there. While I don't believe I have been to Jenn, Dizzy or Kalk's, I have been to Inland several times and know Morgan. There are still good solid LFS stores around, that's for sure. In fact, there are usually several in most cities. (unfortunately for me, not in Cleveland
The sad fact remains that the bad ones outnumber the good. As for your question, Jenn, I'm not sure how they stay in business. Unethical practices, uneducated consumers, dirt cheap prices ( in some cases). There are so many things working against them, and yet they persist. There are a record number of them closing each year, though.
The biggest reason I see for them closing is, they don't give the cistomer a reason to shop at their store over the etailer or the big box. The better B&M's do. There are many different ways to go about this, but making the consumer realize the reason is the key.
{serious sarcasm mode on}
If it wasn't for places like Fosters and Smith, I'd have less free product to make money on.
{sarcasm mode off}
The real story, I've shared this before (and Jenn may have beat me to this already):
You have no clue how many times we get customers in here looking to trade in livestock, which an Internet dropshipper shipped them, because it was too large, too aggressive, or some other way totally not suitable for their tank.
Perfect example:
Customer ordered a 2" Bubble-Tip anemone from the good Doctors. What he received was a 12" to 14" show size behemoth. The customer acclimated it to his tank and left it in there for a few days. During this time, it ate quite a few fish that couldn't escape this size of anemone in his 65G tank. I don't know if he tried working out a deal with the Doctors or not. Usually, the Docs tell you to ship it back if you aren't happy. However, my customer is a bit more intelligent than this and knew it wasn't in the best interest of the animal to have all this cross country shipping going on. He brought it in here and we gave him wholesale value on it, as we do with some trade ins. We don't give any credit on things we don't sell, such as damsels.
The above example happens more times than I want to know. How is this an ethical way to conduct business? What happens when a less serious hobbyist, or one who simply doesn't know better, decides to take more drastic means of disposing of the animal because he feels he didn't pay that much for it anyway so it will be of no big loss to him?
If it wasn't for places like Fosters and Smith, I'd have less free product to make money on.
{sarcasm mode off}
The real story, I've shared this before (and Jenn may have beat me to this already):
You have no clue how many times we get customers in here looking to trade in livestock, which an Internet dropshipper shipped them, because it was too large, too aggressive, or some other way totally not suitable for their tank.
Perfect example:
Customer ordered a 2" Bubble-Tip anemone from the good Doctors. What he received was a 12" to 14" show size behemoth. The customer acclimated it to his tank and left it in there for a few days. During this time, it ate quite a few fish that couldn't escape this size of anemone in his 65G tank. I don't know if he tried working out a deal with the Doctors or not. Usually, the Docs tell you to ship it back if you aren't happy. However, my customer is a bit more intelligent than this and knew it wasn't in the best interest of the animal to have all this cross country shipping going on. He brought it in here and we gave him wholesale value on it, as we do with some trade ins. We don't give any credit on things we don't sell, such as damsels.
The above example happens more times than I want to know. How is this an ethical way to conduct business? What happens when a less serious hobbyist, or one who simply doesn't know better, decides to take more drastic means of disposing of the animal because he feels he didn't pay that much for it anyway so it will be of no big loss to him?
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