The Irony

[JennM]

The problem is the hobbyist that takes their fish home, and with no acclimation drops it into a tank at 1.029 SG, 7.24 pH, and 68 degrees. Then complains to the B&M that their fish died.

This sort of thing happens every day.

Not when the B&M makes a policy of testing the purchaser's water first, and gives them acclimation instructions.

Etailer can't do this.

B&M usually requires sales slip and the dead body back too, as well as a sample of water for testing when a claim is made.

Etailer can't do that either.

To that end, the etailer assumes more risk... however *typically* the etailer can realize more profit on the sale due to lower overhead, and often they pad the shipping charges a bit as well - in order to compensate for forecasted DOA/DAA. Again, it's more of a "numbers game" for etail. I'm not singling out any particular etailer - that's just a generalization on my part, based on my own knowledge and experience.

Jenn

 

[danieldm]

Jenn-

Not when the B&M makes a policy of testing the purchaser's water first, and gives them acclimation instructions.

Do you mean before the purchase, or test the water after the DOA claim? I'm familiar with the second practice, but the first would be a new one on me.

 

[Anonymous]

Do you mean before the purchase, or test the water after the DOA claim? I'm familiar with the second practice, but the first would be a new one on me.

Likewise... over 20 years of keeping marine fish and I've never heard of an LFS doing that. Hmm. For that matter, if an LFS tried to refuse me a purchase because I hadn't brought a pre-purchase water sample in I doubt I'd visit them again.

 

[mark@mac]

When I was a retailer I often tested the customers water BEFORE selling the fish; especially if it was an expensive fish and I didn't know the customer.....

Mark

 

[danieldm]

Mark, I could see on a specific case by case basis, especially with a real expensive fish doing that, but not as a standard practice.

 

[mark@mac]

Standard practice with newer hobbyists and newly established tanks.... Of course more experienced hobbyists are well, more experienced...

 

[Kalkbreath]

Thats just the tip of the Ice berg.
What if a no fault fish guarantee (like with Etailers) becomes the standard for the hobby?
How many more fish will die if there is no one to hold he beginners to tank water quality, fish compatibility and such?
Maybe thats why hobbyists like E-tailing?
They can get away with so much more and its never their fault.
Did the fish get beat up?(Does the body look like Rodney King)?
Is the dead body covered with ick?
is the dead body dried up with carpet fibers because they left the lid up all night?
See without the retailer, the hobbyists are on their own.
And we all know how well most newbies do at following the rules with fish keeping!
With most E-tailers, there are no checks and
balances. (just checks and CC)
Just imagine if we were talking about dogs and cats.(which is what I wanted a certain someone to do just befor he got booted)
Would a no risk ,no fault guarantee be a good thing if it was beagle puppies?

"Yes, IM calling to report that my two puppies I ordered died today and I need you to send two replacements" Yes I purchased them about ten days ago.

"No problem sir, our no fault replacement policy here at E-puppies & fish assures you your purchases are 100 percent no risk! and were not even going to ask about Fido and Spot, your new puppies will be sent staight from the puppy mill to your door . Thanks for shopping with E-puppies and fish.

:wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Do you mean before the purchase, or test the water after the DOA claim? I'm familiar with the second practice, but the first would be a new one on me.

Likewise... over 20 years of keeping marine fish and I've never heard of an LFS doing that. Hmm. For that matter, if an LFS tried to refuse me a purchase because I hadn't brought a pre-purchase water sample in I doubt I'd visit them again.

And your a great case and point as to why E- tailing is getting so popular. You have adopted the Walmart and HD policy of let the manufacturer take the hit. The customer is always right , can kill. :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

How about a nation wide law which requires water testing prior to fish sale?
What would be the position of the opposition?

 

[Kalkbreath]

Fish sales over the Internet would be ended.
New hobbyists would be required to follow the rules and
the fish would not veiw going home with their new owner
like the Nemo fish did with the idea of going home with the perky brace faced
Darla.(Although bag shaking would still be an issue).

 

[Anonymous]

And your a great case and point as to why E- tailing is getting so popular.

Damn right I am
Funnily enough, I don't think there's one single item for my new tank - including the tank - that I'll be purchasing from an LFS. Would you like to engage in a discussion in why that is, or would you prefer to try again to paint ME of all people as an irresponsible hobbyist? 8)

 

[pk1]

How about a nation wide law which requires water testing prior to fish sale?
What would be the position of the opposition?

That would be fine from this hobbyist's point of veiw. Now, lets have the same standards for wholesalers selling to B&M's and such. In fact, why stop there, how about from the collector to the wholesaler?

PK

 

[danieldm]

Funnily - adj. - The light headed disorientation one feels as if they have been spinning in a funnel. (after riding on the tilt-a-whirl at the carnival, I felt very funnily).
Sorry, couldn't help it :lol:

As far as the fish stores go in the greater Sacramento area, I have never seen/heard of one testing a customers' water before selling them a fish. I'm somewhat in tune with the stores in the Bay Area, and I would have to make the same estimation.

 

[Kalkbreath]

And your a great case and point as to why E- tailing is getting so popular.

Damn right I am
8)

Sure , lets hear an explanation of how an online customer (like yourself) knows what the inside of an etailers facilty looks like? Do you choose where to buy fish based on the inside of the retail store or inside a web browser? Do compare the retail experience to the e shopping cart.
You either compare the inside of the two (systems /holding tanks)
or you compare web sites. Its not fair to see a retailer up close and then browse over the internet at selected pimped images.
I have seen Anna Kournikova on the internet and up close.
I have a feeling your going to compare photo shopped online images to what you found behind door number 3 at the local LFS.

 

[Anonymous]

No fair, funnily is a real word. Funnily enough

From dictionary.com:

funnily

adv : in a strange manner; "a queerly inscribed sheet of paper"; "he acted kind of funny" [syn: queerly, strangely, oddly, funny]

 

[danieldm]

That would be fine from this hobbyist's point of veiw. Now, lets have the same standards for wholesalers selling to B&M's and such. In fact, why stop there, how about from the collector to the wholesaler?

As an example, the closest LFS to me has a very in depth acclimation for their fish, I have personaly witnessed the painstaking way they care for their fish.
1) Slit open shipping bag.
2) Dump into large container
3) Dump every other species in the shipment into the same container (including damsels, lions, scorpions, clowns, tangs, etc.)
4) Over a 1-2 hr period, between customers, net each fish out and place it into a tank.
5) Wonder why there are now only 5 clowns insetad of the 9 you unpacked, and why the 7" grouper and 6" lion look so happy.

Marc

 

[Anonymous]

Sure , lets hear an explanation of how an online customer (like yourself) knows what the inside of an etailers facilty looks like? Do you choose where to buy fish based on the inside of the retail store or inside a web browser? Do compare the retail experience to the e shopping cart.
You either compare the inside of the two (systems /holding tanks)
or you compare web sites. Its not fair to see a retailer up close and then browse over the internet at selected pimped images.
I have seen Anna Kournikova on the internet and up close.
I have a feeling your going to compare photo shopped online images to what you found behind door number 3 at the local LFS.

Oh, that's easy - I've been to most of them. Some of them quite literally dozens if not hundreds of times. As a general rule I've found their holding systems to be light years better then anything I'd find in 99.9% of LFS.

Lived in Los Angeles for 10 years, Kalk.

 

[TuskFish]

And your a great case and point as to why E- tailing is getting so popular.

E-tailing is getting so popular in our industry because the number of poor B&M stores far outnumber the quality ones. I live in a mid market city, and there is 1 B&M fish store within 100 miles that I would ever consider purchasing fish or corals from. (and it is about 70 miles from my house) On the drive to this store, I pass at least 9 B&M fish stores that I know of that I would never consider purchasing livestock from, plus 3 PetsMarts, 2 Petco's and about 5 Pet Supplies Plus stores. From what I've read in this and other threads here on RDO in the last few days since I joined, it seems that the majority of you who post here that do own B&M's seem to know what you are doing, and probably have really nice shops, but the reality is, a LARGE majority of B&M's are just not that good. This isthe reason why an etailer, with fair prices, selection, and good guarantees, does so well. Would I rather see my purchases in person before buying? Absolutely! Would I pay more for this? Sure I would. Not double, but I would pay a premium. Would I take less of a guarantee? Yes! Although, for the experienced hobbyist, it is still comforting to have some type of guarantee.
I have read a great deal of complaints on here about etailers getting cherry picked livestock, and unfair advantages from the wholesalers, and making unsubstantiated claims, but I haven't read a whole lot about what I consider the real reason behind the boom of e-commerce.. If all of us had 1 or 2 quality independants near our homes, then perhaps the tides wouldn't be shifting online as they have been.
By the way, not sure who mentioned it, but for those of you that think that DF&S have low overhead, I suggest you take a trip to Wisconsin. They have one of the largest facilities I have ever seen in this industry. LOTS and LOTS of overhead. I doubt I make enough money to even pay the electric bill for that place


Sorry for the rant

Jimmy

 

[Kalkbreath]

And your a great case and point as to why E- tailing is getting so popular.

E-tailing is getting so popular in our industry because the number of poor B&M stores far outnumber the quality ones. I live in a mid market city, and there is 1 B&M fish store within 100 miles that I would ever consider purchasing fish or corals from. (and it is about 70 miles from my house) On the drive to this store, I pass at least 9 B&M fish stores that I know of that I would never consider purchasing livestock from, plus 3 PetsMarts, 2 Petco's and about 5 Pet Supplies Plus stores. From what I've read in this and other threads here on RDO in the last few days since I joined, it seems that the majority of you who post here that do own B&M's seem to know what you are doing, and probably have really nice shops, but the reality is, a LARGE majority of B&M's are just not that good. This isthe reason why an etailer, with fair prices, selection, and good guarantees, does so well. Would I rather see my purchases in person before buying? Absolutely! Would I pay more for this? Sure I would. Not double, but I would pay a premium. Would I take less of a guarantee? Yes! Although, for the experienced hobbyist, it is still comforting to have some type of guarantee.
I have read a great deal of complaints on here about etailers getting cherry picked livestock, and unfair advantages from the wholesalers, and making unsubstantiated claims, but I haven't read a whole lot about what I consider the real reason behind the boom of e-commerce.. If all of us had 1 or 2 quality independants near our homes, then perhaps the tides wouldn't be shifting online as they have been.
By the way, not sure who mentioned it, but for those of you that think that DF&S have low overhead, I suggest you take a trip to Wisconsin. They have one of the largest facilities I have ever seen in this industry. LOTS and LOTS of overhead. I doubt I make enough money to even pay the electric bill for that place


Sorry for the rant

Jimmy

We have been talking about the sales of fish , which come no where near Wisconsin. loosing money on another project does not count as overhead on the sale of drop shipped fish from LAX

 

[pk1]

E-tailing is getting so popular in our industry because the number of poor B&M stores far outnumber the quality ones.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I also think that in many cases(not all of course!), a hobbyist tends to be a bit more informed about the animal they are buying on-line, as opposed to at a LFS. You don't come across a e-tail driving down the street and go in and buy a fish on a whim. Usually you find them through sites like this one and many others like it, where info is pretty easy to find on a particular animal. No inexperienced kid behind a counter telling me that gorgonian is photosynthetic when I know it isn't, for example. JMO...

Patrick