The Irony

[Kalkbreath]

I have been in them as well and I didnt get as sparkely eyed as you. ( I lived in LA for 15 years) But if your or my living in LA is whats gong to enable online customers to judge the conditon of the online livestock facilities (including basement operations in Ohio) then I fail to see your perspective outside of your personal relationships to these companies.
Okey , cjdevito (sorry) says that its alright to buy from drop shippers, but how are you gonna experience beginning hobbyists mistakes nation wide from out in LA?

 

[TuskFish]

[/quote] We have been talking about the sales of fish , which come no where near Wisconsin. loosing money on another project does not count as overhead on the sale of drop shipped fish from LAX[/quote]


Are you kidding me? Let's get our facts straight here. First of all, overhead is overhead. All employee costs, inventory, utilities, rent, etc. are all part of the overhead of any business. Just because in this case the fish are drop shipped from LA, doesn't mean that Liveaquaria or DFS have low overhead.

Secondly, I was lucky enough to get a tour of their Wisconsin facility last fall, and can tell you that they have a nice selection of fish there, as well as an extensive coral holding, quarantining, and aquaculturing facility. They have more water volume there than probably 75% of the fish stores in the country.

 

[Kalkbreath]

If ninty percent of the overhead comes from a facility which they only ship ten percent of the gross sales . Then this is an expensive toy.
If and when they ship most of their own fish out of Wisconson then its a direct overhead correlation. Only then will the playing field be fair on price.
And then they still will have to find a way to create their own customers and stop stealing them away from traditional LFS. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

I have been in them as well and I didnt get as sparkely eyed as you. ( I lived in LA for 15 years) But if your or my living in LA is whats gong to enable online customers to judge the conditon of the online livestock facilities (including basement operations in Ohio)...

Yeah. I've been to a few of those, too. But good try of implying that I haven't, anyway.

then I fail to see your perspective outside of your personal relationships to these companies.

Personal relationships? Who said anything about personal relationships? I have no affiliation with any etailer still in existence. The two I -did-, inasmuch as providing them web sites is having a relationship with them, passed into oblivion years ago. There's no bias or self-interest here, and precious little reason to imply otherwise.

Okey , Cevito says that its alright to buy from drop shippers, but how are you gonna experience beginning hobbyists mistakes nation wide from out in LA?

Kalk, I know you know how to spell my name. This question of yours seeks to change the entire discussion (which is odd, when just a couple posts ago you made a point of responding to Jimmy's excellent points by saying they weren't part of what we'd been talking about) to one of value-added service by the LFS, not the quality of their fish or systems. If you want to go that route, okay, but address Jimmy's points as relevent first, please. It was only his third post to the board, after all, and deserves not to be summarily dismissed.

 

[TuskFish]

If ninty percent of the overhead comes from a facility which they only ship ten percent of the gross sales . Then this is an expensive toy.
If and when they ship most of their own fish out of Wisconson then its a direct overhead correlation. Only then will the playing field be fair on price.
And then they still will have to find a way to create their own customers and stop stealing them away from traditional LFS. :wink:

Once again, I think you are mistaken in seperating fish and corals from hard goods here. One ownership group, several business "names", but all checks come from the same place. If you look at it my way, than the percentages are probably the other way around 90% out of Wisonsin, and 10% from Cali.

I see your point, I just don't consider them seperate businesses...my opinion only, though. Let me offer an analogy. There is a photography studio at the local KMart. Seperate business name, and yet the checks are still made out to Kmart. A woman in my neighborhood worked there, and her pay check came from KMart.

Another issue, using your argument, is that all of the customer service people ( those who handle emails, invoicing, technical support, etc. for liveaquaria, are also in Wisconsin, I believe. Wouldn't this make their salry and benefits part of the overhead? What about the percentage of office space the occupy? And the utilities, rent, computer equipment, etc. for this space?

Look, I see your point here. In fact, I come from the B&M side of this business (many moons ago) and would still be there today had I known then what I know now. I refused to adapt to a changing marketplace and watched as my customers all gravitated away to the new (at the time) big box pet chains.

 

[JennM]

Jenn-

Not when the B&M makes a policy of testing the purchaser's water first, and gives them acclimation instructions.

Do you mean before the purchase, or test the water after the DOA claim? I'm familiar with the second practice, but the first would be a new one on me.

We're all about education first. I am pretty anal about selling "my" fish... I want to test your water BEFORE you make a purchase. This way it spares the fish (coral or invert), the customer and me from a lot of grief.

I'd rather close the barn door before the horse escapes.

Saves me a ton of claims because a lot of people don't routinely test their own water because it "looks fine" but if they have nitrates in excess of 20 PPM, pH lower than 8.0, or any ammonia or nitrite, I help them sort their water out BEFORE I send them home with any livestock

Not so coincidentally we have a very high retention rate of customers and hobbyists in general. We teach them WHY it's important to test, why it's inhumane to drop a fish into putrid water - and we explain that it will save them money as well as suffering to the creatures they are keeping.

As wacky as it sounds, it really works

Jenn

 

[pk1]

Saves me a ton of claims because a lot of people don't routinely test their own water because it "looks fine" but if they have nitrates in excess of 20 PPM, pH lower than 8.0, or any ammonia or nitrite, I help them sort their water out BEFORE I send them home with any livestock

Also a good way to increase sales of dry goods, to fix those problems, and a good Business practice IMO. When do you plan on moving your store to Chicago ??

Patrick

 

[danieldm]

Patrick, as soon as she gets her Sacramento store up and running.

 

[JennM]

Do you mean before the purchase, or test the water after the DOA claim? I'm familiar with the second practice, but the first would be a new one on me.

Likewise... over 20 years of keeping marine fish and I've never heard of an LFS doing that. Hmm. For that matter, if an LFS tried to refuse me a purchase because I hadn't brought a pre-purchase water sample in I doubt I'd visit them again.

I guess it's all in how the matter is broached. I've never had anybody leave in a huff because I wanted to test their water before a purchase. And I don't understand why you'd object to this if it's in your best interest. It's not written in stone either - it isn't mandatory but I certainly encourage it - that way IF there is a warranty issue, we all know ahead of time that the client's water was in order before the purchase was made. Covers the customer's hiney as well as mine - and especially the critters'.

Once a customer is a "regular" and we're all comfortable that they know what they're doing (and no I don't treat my clients as "babies"... and I know the difference between an accomplished hobbyist and a newb), then I don't ask for a water sample first. Many still bring one anyway... just to "double check" that the results we get are consistent with their own testing.

Most of my customers automatically bring a sample because they can't be bothered to test themselves, and we don't charge for testing.

And I've had more than a few know-it-alls who swear their water is fine, be surprised when their nitrates are out of whack (gee, 2 years since your last water change? Would you mind if I tested that water?!)

This practice is NOT done in a condescending way. It's done in a spirit of good faith and helpfulness to the client. It's a service we provide that makes us stand out from the others.

Sorry if you feel that it's a bad practice, but respectfully I think you may be in the minority.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

And I don't understand why you'd object to this if it's in your best interest.

Mostly because I'm used to LFS - even the ones who claim to be well-informed - being rather ignorant and misinformed. Not saying you all are, Jenn, and that's never been my opinion of you. Just general experience.

Actually, the way you went on to describe the practice doesn't sound that bad. Even for a one-time customer walking through the door, rather then one of your regulars who you've invested in having a relationship with. It's just that I've known more then a few very arrogant shops over the years and I just picture the some swarmy guy pushing skilters standing there and going, "Nope, I don't know what your water is like, and I just don't trust you to give a good home to Nemo here."

Still Jenn, to be honest if I walked into some place for the first time and they expected me to have a water sample on me I'd be more then a little taken aback by it.

 

[pk1]

well, you could always calm said customer down by offering a 14 day warranty, with pre tested water, 24 hour warranty without . That would satisfy even the experienced hobbyist "taken back" by the request...

Patrick

 

[JennM]

Well I guess I must live in a bubble then. 20 years ago when I was a newbie in the hobby, we had big box stores back then (Aquarium Services in Canada which sells online as Big Al's) which was like a Home Depot for fish... and we had some little mom & pop stores much like mine.

In fact, I named my store after a mom & pop that earned all of my business once I found them. They always tested my water first before I took a fish home.

When I moved here to ATL 6 years ago, any of the stores I actually bought fish from, were happy to test my water first - I'd bring in a sample I guess because my old LFS back home "trained" me to do so. Of course I tested it at home but I wanted to CMA also, and I never got looked at like I had a third eye.

When I took work at a LFS here, it was also standard practice to test a client's water before sending fish home. Again it's not a hard and fast rule, just a recommendation, and it just makes common sense for all concerned.

Besides, if one sends a fish home, then the customer claims a DAA within the 24 hour time frame (that's the only LFS guarantee I've ever seen anywhere, except with freshies) and then the customer comes back with a stiff and a sample which proves to be putrid, they can get really irate when you tell them that you can't honour the guarantee because their ammonia and nitrite were off the charts. I've seen signs in stores that list the appropriate parameters for honouring a guarantee but most people who encounter this situation (bad water) after the fact are shocked - because the water "looked" fine. That and a long established tank with long time inhabitants may have grown accustomed to nitrate of over 200 ppm but put a new fish in there and it dies in short order. Customer had no idea...

Testing the water first, discovers problems before they kill new fish.

And yes, it does help with the sale of dry goods - if somebody's pH is 7.8, they usually leave without a fish, but with a jar of buffer. If their nitrates are high, their filtration media is discussed along with recommendations for aggressive water changes to dilute the problem (and many by their RO or saltwater from us).

It's not a "sales pitch" per se because it often results in the non-sale of livestock (for the short term anyway) and it usually benefits the customer in the long run because problems are addressed before they've spent a fortune in dead stock.

Like I said, perhaps I just live in a bubble but it's been my way of doing things for over 20 years.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

well, you could always calm said customer down by offering a 14 day warranty, with pre tested water, 24 hour warranty without . That would satisfy even the experienced hobbyist "taken back" by the request...

Hmm. Yeah, actually. I'd totally swallow it in that light.

[Edit for clarity]

 

[Anonymous]

Like I said, perhaps I just live in a bubble but it's been my way of doing things for over 20 years.

Jenn, if I'd an LFS like yours around it's entirely possible I wouldn't have the low opinion of them in general that I do. My experiences are very different from yours, though. By way of example...

Have you ever had an LFS so bad that they literally had several hundred pounds of (recently deceased) goniopora skeletons sitting in one of their tanks for sale as "base rock" for $3.50 a pound? No joke

Besides, if one sends a fish home, then the customer claims a DAA within the 24 hour time frame (that's the only LFS guarantee I've ever seen anywhere, except with freshies) and then the customer comes back with a stiff and a sample which proves to be putrid, they can get really irate when you tell them that you can't honour the guarantee because their ammonia and nitrite were off the charts. I've seen signs in stores that list the appropriate parameters for honouring a guarantee but most people who encounter this situation (bad water) after the fact are shocked - because the water "looked" fine. That and a long established tank with long time inhabitants may have grown accustomed to nitrate of over 200 ppm but put a new fish in there and it dies in short order. Customer had no idea...

I have seen 48 and even 72 hour guarantees on salt water livestock from LFS on occasion, but more usually not even 24 hr is offered.

I'll take your word on customer reaction to the situation you describe. It's not something I've ever had to deal with first hand, but I can easily picture it happening just as you say. I'm sure there's no shortage at all of bad customers out there.

 

[JennM]

I wouldn't even say "bad" customers. Uninformed customers. Unfortunately the vast majority still fly by the seat of their pants despite the wide availablity of information in printed media and online.

And many stores don't offer any extras so people fumble blindly along... once they find me I try to make it fun to learn, I offer my own experience and I even suggest that they challenge my opinions - don't take them as "gospel"... there are many opinions in this hobby so read, inform oneself and pick my brain as to why I suggest doing it "this" way. I usually encourage folks to buy a copy of Fenner's Marine Aquarist - I don't agree with 100% of the content of that book but most of it is good common sense information and it's an easy read for the less than willing reader And it has good pictures too! Then I joke and tell them, "There will be a quiz later!"

It is all about attitude. We aren't condescending, we don't try to make uneducated people feel stupid - rather, we want to stimulate them to learn on their own. This is a hobby - it's supposed to be fun. We try to make it so.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

The problem is the hobbyist that takes their fish home, and with no acclimation drops it into a tank at 1.029 SG, 7.24 pH, and 68 degrees. Then complains to the B&M that their fish died.

This sort of thing happens every day.

Not when the B&M makes a policy of testing the purchaser's water first, and gives them acclimation instructions.

Etailer can't do this.

B&M usually requires sales slip and the dead body back too, as well as a sample of water for testing when a claim is made.

Etailer can't do that either.

To that end, the etailer assumes more risk... however *typically* the etailer can realize more profit on the sale due to lower overhead, and often they pad the shipping charges a bit as well - in order to compensate for forecasted DOA/DAA. Again, it's more of a "numbers game" for etail. I'm not singling out any particular etailer - that's just a generalization on my part, based on my own knowledge and experience.

Jenn

they "can't " ?

why not ?

 

[JennM]

Well Vitz, if you have the ability to test a customer's water in another city, please share how you can do that.

In my experience, a water sample begins to degrade after about an hour, so any sample that may have travelled through the mail or such, wouldn't provide viable results.

I don't know of any etailer offering water testing.

Sure some require the return of the dead bodies and/or photos, but how can you test a client's water before or after the sale if you never see them in person?

Jenn

 

[nanocat]

Jenn that's a first for me as well. I've been to at least 20 LFS in the LA - Orange County area and none of them request water samples prior to sale(not that they're all stellar LFS, some are pits).

Several of them certainly encourage reefers who want to know if they're "ready" for fish and done with cycling the tank, to bring in a sample for free testing.

In addition, I know of at least one LFS which only replaces your fish in the first 48 hours with a water sample.

Both of those practices make a lot of sense IMO.

Just curious, but how do walk-ins know to bring water with them if they're shopping your store for the first time?

 

[Kalkbreath]

{cjdevito} I would be curious as to which Stores in LA you have had these horror stories in?These stores get their fish from the same wholesalers you seem to suport as the top source of fish{online}
But more importantly since you seem to be advocating the support of online fish sales........how you can be so sure that if you walked into your average Internet store , that you would not find the same atrocities?
Jen has illustrated quite well that a fish sold in a real LFS has can have pre sale pre qualification carried out , which help safe guard not only the fishes health. But the hobbyists chances of success.....so real LFS win in this context.
But you still seem steadfast on the notion that because the customer cant see the fish or holding systems over the Internet........this somehow makes for better fish?

 

[Anonymous]

Well Vitz, if you have the ability to test a customer's water in another city, please share how you can do that.

In my experience, a water sample begins to degrade after about an hour, so any sample that may have travelled through the mail or such, wouldn't provide viable results.

I don't know of any etailer offering water testing.

Sure some require the return of the dead bodies and/or photos, but how can you test a client's water before or after the sale if you never see them in person?

Jenn

if someone really wanted to require a water sample sent overnite-it's certainly do-able, and plenty of b&m customers bring in samples that they had sitting in their car for 2 days


for the record, i've always considered the whole 'warranty/guarantee' thing a crock, a doctor can't guarantee that you'll leave his office alive after giving you a perfect bill of health after an exam, and he has far better diagnostic tools avaiiable than what we have at our disposal for fish