Les and Serangan

[PeterIMA]

duplicate posting deleted

 

[PeterIMA]

"Could you please tell me what were EASTI's accomplishments in the Philippines? According to comments exchanged in this forum EASTI has nothing to show regarding Ferdinand Cruz work in the Philippines."

"According to scientists that have worked many years in Indonesia and know very well Indonesia and its government, chances of saving the coral reefs are almost nil. With the use of cyanide to collect MO, this trade is contributing to the agony of those coral reefs."


Jaime, You initiated your so-called questions with very negative statements. I am not sure what you have against Ferdinand Cruz. You don't know him and you certainly don't know what he has been doing (other than what he and I have provided). Yet, you seem ready to denigrate EASTI's efforts. Why?

Peter

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Peter, I'm not denigrating anybody or any organization. You are the one saying many good things about EASTI. What I have said is that EASTI accomplishments in the Philippines are not as you have described before. One of the exporters in Manila have just stated that he "never ever heard of them".

Initially, EASTI was working in Manila with Imperial, but nobody( except you and Ferdinand) knew that the relationship didn't work for the reasons you just mentioned (imperial decided to sell juiced fish), meaning that EASTI was not capable of convincing one exporter of doing the right thing, and the net collectors were shifted, by Ferdinand, to deal with other exporters who probably were selling juiced fish. Meaning that all the efforts by EASTI were just wasted.

You are wrong, I know Ferdinand Cruz, I met him in Manila a while ago when he was working as "fish collector trainer" for IMA-Philippines. Now, seems that he is running his own NGO. Also, seems that EASTI is concentrating its efforts in Indonesia based in its experience in the Philippines. What makes EASTI's people think that things are easier in Indonesia?

Those are not negative statements is just.....reality.

Time ran out.

jaime

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaime,

Well sometimes things don't work out. Look at you and Ocean Voice.

Things are working out for EASTI now. That is the difference.

Peter

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime,

Well sometines things don't work out. Look at you and Ocean Voice.

Things are working out for EASTI now. That is the difference.

Peter

Peter,

Things have worked nicely for me. I'm independent with my own business which has a very solid reputation.

The difference is that I have accepted that the situation in the Philippines is something that I, Ocean Voice or any other NGO CAN NOT solve. It is a Filipino problem that has to be solved by themselves, of course, with the commitment and willingness of the central government.

One difference, between us, is that I stopped being naive long time ago.

I stop it here.

Jaime

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaime, I like the part in the Sundance Kid where they looked back at their persuers and said "Who are those guys?"

I don't give up. That is not being naive just persistant.

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

Jaime, I like the part in the Sundance Kid where they looked back at their persuers and said "Who are those guys?"

I don't give up. That is not being naive just persistant.

Peter

Just like MAC.

 

[dizzy]

Just like bin Laden and Bush. Wayne Ryan too. Some people never give up, but some people never learn either.
Mitch

 

[PeterIMA]

Look, I am the one helping to invite 10 people to attend a CDT Workshop sponsored by NOAA. I am the one organizing a session at the next Marine Ornamentals Conference concerned with Sustainalbility of the Marine Aquarium Trade. I am the one who helped found the IMA and now collaborating with Ferdinand Cruz. You guys are sitting at your computer terminals trying to find fault. That is unfortunate, because it is your industry that has problems that need to be dealt with.

Perhaps it is you who refuse to learn or to change.

Peter

 

[dizzy]

Peter,
That wasn't necessarily aimed exclusively at your efforts, but hey if the shoe fits, put it right on. The one thing I have learned about this industry forum is that no one ever changes their opinions about anything, regardless of how much information is provided that shows the contrary. People hear what they want to hear and believe what they want to believe and nothing anyone can say or do will ever change that. So in a nutshell that is what we're up against.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

I find it interesting that you were happy to go after MAC for saying the same kinds of things you are saying in this thread. I sure hope your efforts make a difference (just like I hope MAC's efforts make a difference), but until you can show us something actual, instead of vague platitudes and defensive clandestine follow up, people are going to take what you say with a big bucket of salt. Remember, you were one of the people who helped teach us that we shouldn't blindly trust NGO's, and that doesn't go away because you now say that one is working. Keep fighting, but please show us something beyond press releases.

 

[PeterIMA]

Thales and Mitch, While I am defensive and frustrated, I do appreciate your feedback. Good things are happening. When they are ready for prime time, you guys will be the first to know. I have provided more information than you can get elsewhere and will continue to keep you informed.

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Peter, but you have got to know that we are frustrated by hearing that 'good things are happening' only to find out a little later that that isn't quite the case.

 

[clarionreef]

Look, I am the one helping to invite 10 people to attend a CDT Workshop sponsored by NOAA. I am the one organizing a session at the next Marine Ornamentals Conference concerned with Sustainalbility of the Marine Aquarium Trade. I am the one who helped found the IMA and now collaborating with Ferdinand Cruz. You guys are sitting at your computer terminals trying to find fault.

And your organization at great expense of the Marine Ornamentals conference in Vegas 2 years ago I remember.
Actually Peter....as frustrating as it sometimes is to try and do the right thing...you already have done more then the entire crowd that sits in judgement. But dont take them too seriously. Its just recreation for most of them anyway and real results w/ fish collectors hardly matter with them anyway as they are now mainly reef people and not fish people..
[Scott Michaels like the last fish guy speaking at the conferences.]

Don't reef people care about the real coral reefs you might ask?
Well, no...not if they can still get a cool frag of it.
Frag..as in fragment .
Fragment as is partial picture,
smaller focus,
smaller world,
smaller concern.

Having a fragmented world view of these things insures that reform must be initiated in the field countries and not in the partially concerned consumer countries.
It cannot wait for rising concern in a trade w/ decreasing concern for fishlife. [ unless its a rare , deepwater fairy wrasse perhaps]

This is where the eco-labeling notions fall apart because eco-types are still lagging a decade behind and thinking about fishlife, and the avante guard of the trade is deeply into reefs.
The smart guys, the writers, the speakers, the trend setters are reefers.
Not all of them....but most.
We have two seperate choirs [industrys] here and we are singing to the wrong one.
I mean comon..... who dreams, who obsesses over procuring a bicolor angel, an auriga butterfly, a dragon wrasse , an arc-eye hawk and some blue damsels in the home aquarium ?
Now.............brother reefers....think before you react.
Its true isn't it?
We are not the same . We are different children, of the same parents.
This is not so much a criticism as an empiracle, sociological observation.
Steve :?
Fish person today
Fish person tomorrow
fish person forever!

I'll be a reefer when you pry the net out of my cold, dead fingers!

 

[Anonymous]

Give me a break Steve, is it not the FISH PEOPLE that use cyanide?
Is it not the fish people that use clove oil?
Is it not the fish people that strip the reef of herbivores?
Is it not the fish people that use quin?
Is it not the fish peple that ship cold water fish into a tropical trade?
Is it not the fish people that got us in the messin the first place?

Maybe it's time for the fish people that step off, step down, deflate their egos and open thier colelctive eyes?

I rememeber the fiasco of the last MO, I was there and I'll be watching the next train wreck as well. (cough)15 minutes of fame(cough) is a great way to get information out.

 

[Anonymous]

Look, I am the one helping to invite 10 people to attend a CDT Workshop sponsored by NOAA. I am the one organizing a session at the next Marine Ornamentals Conference concerned with Sustainalbility of the Marine Aquarium Trade. I am the one who helped found the IMA and now collaborating with Ferdinand Cruz. You guys are sitting at your computer terminals trying to find fault. That is unfortunate, because it is your industry that has problems that need to be dealt with.

Perhaps it is you who refuse to learn or to change.

Peter

And what is IMA doing now? What came about from the last MO other then you using Ruwi and Arso to build your "fishroom" after flying all the way from Bali to give talks at MO? Now that's a graet use of Telepak and EASTI.

 

[bookfish]

I would think reefers would be the most natural allies available to the anti-cyanide movement. SW fish people can be served, albeit temporarily, by smashing and juicing corals to procure the fish. Reefers are naturally going to be concerned about the health of the coral and any country looking to export live coral would naturally think twice about allowing destructive collection practices for MO fish.

 

[dizzy]

Thales and Mitch, While I am defensive and frustrated, I do appreciate your feedback. Good things are happening. When they are ready for prime time, you guys will be the first to know. I have provided more information than you can get elsewhere and will continue to keep you informed.

Peter

Peter I can certainly understand your frustration. I truly believe that some of the posters don't really want good news unless it comes from the dog they have decided to back in this fight. And that door swings both ways.
Mitch

 

[clarionreef]

Hey bro,
Reef and fish folks in the consumer marketplace are to be regarded as the same as fish and reef folks in the field sources?
Covering for...answering for the cyanide cartels activities was normal, you're right...but not w/ everyone!

The exposes by whistle blowin fish people on their own estranged and unenlightened cohorts is the only reason this even came to light.
We taught the NGOs before it was an issue ....who then made a business out of it...
Certainly no one else was going to do it or coulda done it.

When the notion came to investigate and expose the crimes of the estranged and unenlightened cohorts of the wild coral and rock trade....I had already relized that it would not be well recieved as like the fish folks....they would not want to know.
So...its been a Don't ask...don't tell thing for a long time.

The gist of the message [which was good one I don't mind saying ] still stands and it was not a simple tit for tat on Ferdie vs Jason...I mean Freddie vs Jason....er reefs vs fish...

Fish people egos?
We have no fish people left except the mass of Petco customers!
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Every wholesaler tends to be a fish person