Les and Serangan

[Anonymous]

no fish people?
someone is out of touch with the hobby...

 

[clarionreef]

Right,
So they can distribute to the chains stores and the retailers who still sell basic fish.
Fish are still flogged but he trade is dumbing down.
The trend is a brain-drain to the reef side...and the exciting new developments are heavily evidenced there.
The roster of speakers at the conferences reveals what people want to hear.
90% reefs stuff
9.50 % fish talks
.05 % Conservation talks
Or percentages close to that.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

At Macna there were many conservation talks. At least five off the top of my head.

 

[Anonymous]

Dumbed down? Coral keeping is FAR more a science then fish keeping IMO/IME.

Put a fish in OK water, feed it and change water. Maybe medicate and buffer.

I'll let you list the items needed for keeping corals as us coral people are dumber then you fish people :lol: BTW - I call myself both, i LVOE fish and CORAl. Do I have to chose which I like more?

 

[clarionreef]

Rich,

This is where the eco-labeling notions fall apart because eco-types are still lagging a decade behind and thinking about fishlife, and the avante guard of the trade is deeply into reefs.
The smart guys, the writers, the speakers, the trend setters are reefers.
Not all of them....but most.
We have two seperate choirs [industrys] here and we are singing to the wrong one.
I mean comon..... who dreams, who obsesses over procuring a bicolor angel, an auriga butterfly, a dragon wrasse , an arc-eye hawk and some blue damsels in the home aquarium ?
Now.............brother reefers....think before you react.
Its true isn't it?
We are not the same . We are different children, of the same parents.
This is not so much a criticism as an empiracle, sociological observation.

There is the proverbial, token conservation talk at times dwarfed numerically by all others as to be laughable.
There are times when an NGO talk had more staff members then audience members.

If suddenly the surge has finally begun , I am happy to hear it.
I've been outta the country for a month and must have missed it.
But more probably is that my notion simply tripped off the auto rebuttal response .
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

MACNA was two months before you left, in fact, you replied to a post I made about it at the time :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

As often happens,
a typo has skewed a meaning;
I ment to write....

Fish are still flogged but that trade is dumbing down.

The hidden gauntlet of procedures in the processing of fishes ie. handling and collecting for quality are still hidden from the trade and hardly as popular for discussion as they should be.

1. The huge, overwhelming effect of incomplete decompression for example on so many fishes is barely in the lexicon yet determines the viability of species after another especially, angels, anthias and fancy wrasses.

2. The bag storage phenomena w/ its link to chronic low level ammonia toxicity is still prevasive, widespread and exerts a huge effect on fishes and their resultant afterlife.

3. The effect of re-cycling of purged cyanide in these same storage bags must have a chilling effect on the gills over the first day of storage, I'm sure.

Philippine and Bali exporters haven't a clue on this stuff and ... pass the lack of information on.
The trade goes forth in ignorance of why fish continue to die in inappropriate numbers [ Jay Hemdals 2 main basic countries observation].
Intelligent progress however in the fine points of reefkeeping are endless topics for discussion.
The nuances are so many...and the talks have been so many and varied that conference organizers may want to consider reaching out to a few more fish folks just to get some variety and avoid the same ol same ol rosters that have filled the conference rooms for 20 years now.
Steve
Reefers;
Its a compliment...and we are jealous...geeez

 

[Anonymous]

Rich,

This is where the eco-labeling notions fall apart because eco-types are still lagging a decade behind and thinking about fishlife, and the avante guard of the trade is deeply into reefs.
The smart guys, the writers, the speakers, the trend setters are reefers.
Not all of them....but most.
We have two seperate choirs [industrys] here and we are singing to the wrong one.
I mean comon..... who dreams, who obsesses over procuring a bicolor angel, an auriga butterfly, a dragon wrasse , an arc-eye hawk and some blue damsels in the home aquarium ?
Now.............brother reefers....think before you react.
Its true isn't it?
We are not the same . We are different children, of the same parents.
This is not so much a criticism as an empiracle, sociological observation.

There is the proverbial, token conservation talk at times dwarfed numerically by all others as to be laughable.
There are times when an NGO talk had more staff members then audience members.

If suddenly the surge has finally begun , I am happy to hear it.
I've been outta the country for a month and must have missed it.
But more probably is that my notion simply tripped off the auto rebuttal response .
Steve

You were home. There were several threads about it that you posted to. At least one speaker changed his published topic to conservation at the last minute.

There are many 'mundane' corals that reefers don't obsess over, just as there are fish people don't dream of having. At there same time, there are many fish that reefers swoon over - not knowing this seems to show that you have a disconnect with the hobby as it is now. Fish are indeed a big deal - don't let the apparent hype over coral fragging (a good thing!) cloud the other facets of the hobby for you.

 

[Anonymous]

As often happens,
a typo has skewed a meaning;
I ment to write....

Fish are still flogged but that trade is dumbing down.

The hidden gauntlet of procedures in the processing of fishes ie. handling and collecting for quality are still hidden from the trade and hardly as popular for discussion as they should be.

You bet. At the same time, the same can be said about coral collection.

1. The huge, overwhelming effect of incomplete decompression for example on so many fishes is barely in the lexicon yet determines the viability of species after another especially, angels, anthias and fancy wrasses.

2. The bag storage phenomena w/ its link to chronic low level ammonia toxicity is still prevasive, widespread and exerts a huge effect on fishes and their resultant afterlife.

3. The effect of re-cycling of purged cyanide in these same storage bags must have a chilling effect on the gills over the first day of storage, I'm sure.

Philippine and Bali exporters haven't a clue on this stuff and ... pass the lack of information on.
The trade goes forth in ignorance of why fish continue to die in inappropriate numbers [ Jay Hemdals 2 main basic countries observation].
Intelligent progress however in the fine points of reefkeeping are endless topics for discussion.

I think the points of reefkeeping and fish keeping are topics for endless discussion because people can actually do something about them. However, in regards to collection, aquarists can do nothing - any information brought forth is not only not sound, but it gets blasted by other experts. Aquarists ask what they can do, and are told to avoid juiced animals - but there is almost no way to actually do that. Is it really surprising that people put there attention where they can make a difference?

The nuances are so many...and the talks have been so many and varied that conference organizers may want to consider reaching out to a few more fish folks just to get some variety and avoid the same ol same ol rosters that have filled the conference rooms for 20 years now.
Steve
Reefers;
Its a compliment...and we are jealous...geeez

But I don't really think you are correct. The last two MACNA's had bunches of fish talks. Heck, this years keynote was about fish. I think you are reaching on this one.

 

[clarionreef]

At there same time, there are many fish that reefers swoon over - not knowing this seems to show that you have a disconnect with the hobby as it is now.

Don't let the rare cherrypick fish that reefers swoon over ie. cirrhilabrus, ventralis, genicanthus etc. allow one to imagine that its much of a fish trade.
Finding enthusiasm for the rare, deeperwater stuff that kills divers is hardly much of a fish trade.
Being in the fish trade, I have a far better understanding of what size the deal is.....
The message, mostly misunderstood is the level of concern for the environment genuinely and the intellectual progress between the two.
The fact that a large trade in cyanide fish is still allowed, tolerated and rewarded and authorized by all fisheries agencies and the USFWS is pretty amazing.
If that doesn't indicate a low level of progress and conscienceness , I wonder what does.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

I think the points of reefkeeping and fish keeping are topics for endless discussion because people can actually do something about them. However, in regards to collection, aquarists can do nothing - any information brought forth is not only not sound, but it gets blasted by other experts. Aquarists ask what they can do, and are told to avoid juiced animals - but there is almost no way to actually do that. Is it really surprising that people put there attention where they can make a difference?

I agree...
You make a good argument against eco-labeling and consumer driven schemes and for the supply side as the area where the changes must occur.
I agree and take that as still more evidence of progress in discussion for reform. After all, thats far more important.

 

[clarionreef]

I just read the IMAC speakers roster...
80 reef oriented. 20% fish.
OK, progress. At least 20% of the talks are about things that move.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

At there same time, there are many fish that reefers swoon over - not knowing this seems to show that you have a disconnect with the hobby as it is now.

Don't let the rare cherrypick fish that reefers swoon over ie. cirrhilabrus, ventralis, genicanthus etc. allow one to imagine that its much of a fish trade.
Finding enthusiasm for the rare, deeperwater stuff that kills divers is hardly much of a fish trade.
Being in the fish trade, I have a far better understanding of what size the deal is.....

There is almost constant fish talk on many of the reef boards.
If the market is shrinking for 'common' fish, why are you training people to collect them?

The message, mostly misunderstood is the level of concern for the environment genuinely and the intellectual progress between the two.
The fact that a large trade in cyanide fish is still allowed, tolerated and rewarded is pretty amazing.
If that doesn't indicate a low level of progress and conscienceness , I wonder what does.
Steve

I think you are still missing the point that when people ask what they can do to make a difference, the response is screaming silence or an impossible 'don't buy juiced fish'.

It seems to me that the people who care quickly get fed up with trying to support the right thing, but it being impossible to do it. So, they moved on to things they could do like captive breeding and coral propagation.

 

[Anonymous]

BTW - glad you are home, and I hope your recent trip was good!

 

[clarionreef]

Why thank you...its good to get cold again.

I think you are still missing the point that when people ask what they can do to make a difference, the response is screaming silence or an impossible 'don't buy juiced fish'.

It seems to me that the people who care quickly get fed up with trying to support the right thing, but it being impossible to do it. So, they moved on to things they could do like captive breeding and coral propagation

This is the information age in internet America. On all issues you will be overwhelmed by the lack of black and white choices if you choose to be.
Look, the "information overloads" that poor innocents suffer from are a normal thing these days are they not?
We all decide who we put our trust in.
What do these innocents do every time they buy a car?
When they choose to marry?
How do you know which reef supplements to buy?
How bout salt? [I hope this doesn't re-open the salt wars]

"He said..she said". And so its grid-lock?
I don't think it should even be our choice at all anymore.
I don't want it to be because we Americans and asst. other consumers are not all that concerned. We choose poorly.
We talk big and act cheaply when no ones lookin.
We quickly burn out before theres even a fire.

Letting Joe-NGO do it means it may well not get done. Finally after a decade of huge collateral damage and losses on the reefs ...local fisheries are becoming less naive and starting to regain their lost turf and obligations to act for themselves.
All this "farming out" of the issues has done was give the local fisheries a break from responsibility and allowed their funds and staffs to not help fishermen.
The Philippines is in the spolight now as they may finally do something after 20 years of taking bribes from the cyanide trade directly and the last 20 of "letting foreigners" do it.
Go Lino... go!
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

So, lets make it not black and white...
What can concerned hobbyists do?

 

[clarionreef]

I sure could use a few bundles of 3/8s inch barrier netting and a few 1/2 inch bundles for training 200 fisherfolk.
This would outfit 6 village trainings and let the hobby buy in on the kick-off..
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Make up a simple proposal (who its for, how much, etc) and get it to me, and I'll see what I can do.

 

[Anonymous]

I just read the IMAC speakers roster...
80 reef oriented. 20% fish.
OK, progress. At least 20% of the talks are about things that move.
Steve

:lol: IMAC isn't MACNA Buddy MACNA this year is a whopper

 

[PeterIMA]

Thales, I applaud your efforts to help Steve obtain barrier netting for trainings.

Peter