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cortez marine":1xetm3zj said:
What was that a response to?
New Guinea to open soon
- Thread starter clarionreef
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What was that a response to?
clarionreef
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It was a good point;
Rich writes;
l
I take it to mean actually as opposed to a long tradition of "talking it up to win a budget" but not actually win the game.
Long suffered Cubs fans know what I mean.
I personally just want the change in the field and in the fishermans welfare. All the rest are collateral benefits to me. They are fine but will not be sustained without actual change in the villages cuz thats where the reefs are.
Steve
Rich writes;
l
Actually do it he asked.
I take it to mean actually as opposed to a long tradition of "talking it up to win a budget" but not actually win the game.
Long suffered Cubs fans know what I mean.
I personally just want the change in the field and in the fishermans welfare. All the rest are collateral benefits to me. They are fine but will not be sustained without actual change in the villages cuz thats where the reefs are.
Steve
clarionreef
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Peter,
I am not the responsible survey guy but from what i have seen it will work like this....
Steve, Can you explain what is being done to implement "a sustainable management plan" in PNG.
The TAC will derive from the surveys and quotas and will be enforced thru a software linked to the fisheries . The invoices cannot be completed and verified without the quotas being complied with.
Attempts to smuggle is always a possibility and one can always risk falsifying invoices and take their chances with the PNG fisheries and the USFWS.
How will the underwater surveys that you are conducting be utillized for management purposes?
The surveys generate the fish counts which lead to the allowance of fishes and quotas based on the fish populations. As surveys are taken thruout the year, the rise and fall of populations will be seen and if numbers go low, quotas may go low, and seasonal variations are another variable to consider.
Does this only apply to the marine ornamentals fisheries?
Sea cucumbers, lobsters, sharks and food fishes are counted as well.
Steve
Fisher and fishery development trainer
EcoEz
I am not the responsible survey guy but from what i have seen it will work like this....
Steve, Can you explain what is being done to implement "a sustainable management plan" in PNG.
The TAC will derive from the surveys and quotas and will be enforced thru a software linked to the fisheries . The invoices cannot be completed and verified without the quotas being complied with.
Attempts to smuggle is always a possibility and one can always risk falsifying invoices and take their chances with the PNG fisheries and the USFWS.
How will the underwater surveys that you are conducting be utillized for management purposes?
The surveys generate the fish counts which lead to the allowance of fishes and quotas based on the fish populations. As surveys are taken thruout the year, the rise and fall of populations will be seen and if numbers go low, quotas may go low, and seasonal variations are another variable to consider.
Does this only apply to the marine ornamentals fisheries?
Sea cucumbers, lobsters, sharks and food fishes are counted as well.
Steve
Fisher and fishery development trainer
EcoEz
cortez marine":2zfl2w05 said:
Thats not what I meant.
Let us know when we can "buy sustainably managed properly collected livestock with a quota, a total allowable catch and a management plan", and it would also be nice to know where. It's nice to say 'buy sustainably', but it seems to be quite another thing to actually be able to do so either at the wholesale or retail level.
clarionreef
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Sorry...
I thought you ment win the greater cause, ie. the big one after 20 years of false starts and failed effort.
To stop damaging reefs to collect fish and give the trade some hope in the Asian arena where cyanide is sold to divers in lieu of nets and makes everyone an accomplice to something very wrong.
Selling the fish?
Thats for the exporter people who ship to the importer people who sell to the retail people who market to the public.
I may have input but its certainly what I signed on for.
I hope to promote PNG brand fish as a higher standard that will bear scrutiny and not just hype.
Keeping PNG clean is my focus. What traders do in other countries ie. mix in good, bonafide clean fish and claim all their fish to be good... well thats another issue.
Steve
I thought you ment win the greater cause, ie. the big one after 20 years of false starts and failed effort.
To stop damaging reefs to collect fish and give the trade some hope in the Asian arena where cyanide is sold to divers in lieu of nets and makes everyone an accomplice to something very wrong.
Selling the fish?
Thats for the exporter people who ship to the importer people who sell to the retail people who market to the public.
I may have input but its certainly what I signed on for.
I hope to promote PNG brand fish as a higher standard that will bear scrutiny and not just hype.
Keeping PNG clean is my focus. What traders do in other countries ie. mix in good, bonafide clean fish and claim all their fish to be good... well thats another issue.
Steve
Right. Great!
Lots of people want to 'buy sustainably managed properly collected livestock with a quota, a total allowable catch and a management plan', there just doesn't seem to be a way to do it at this time, so I am looking forward to a time when they are available.
Lots of people want to 'buy sustainably managed properly collected livestock with a quota, a total allowable catch and a management plan', there just doesn't seem to be a way to do it at this time, so I am looking forward to a time when they are available.
clarionreef
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And they already have.
The village you are working with in Les, Bali has been collecting fishes with nets for about 7 years.
Working in the same areas as a cyanide trade and competing in the same market with much of the same species has made it difficult to excite the market hasn't it?
That suggests that doing the right thing is not so appealing to people as having the right thing....all the time....at cyanide standard pricing.
Our blessing is to start without a dozen exporters down the street who provide cyanide to the fisherman.
...and to have a government support the clean alternative.
If the Indonesian government woud break out...and do what the Philippine government will not do [ still] and mandate a clean trade or else...they coud prevail.
As it stands ...I think that PNG will be the only place with sustained tonnages of good fish in the decades to come.
What on earth is Manila and Jakarta waiting for?
Steve
Indonesia and Philippines have serious problems such as corruption, lack of education in coastal communities and lack of willingness and commitment of central governments to deal with all the problems that have been discussed in this forum, and other arenas, during the last 30 years.
I see that in Indonesia there is an isolated effort in Les, Bali. How concrete and serious is that effort? How many importers are getting good quality and clean fish from that initiative? What is doing the Indonesian government, or the agency responsible to manage the natural resources, to control and regulate the trade of MO?
In the Philippines the status quo prevails, and as consequence the coral reefs and ornamental fish populations keep declining. The central government has other priorities. Coral reefs and MO fish collectors are neglected.
The project in PNG could be the example for many developing countries where this activity takes place, I hope.
Jaime
I see that in Indonesia there is an isolated effort in Les, Bali. How concrete and serious is that effort? How many importers are getting good quality and clean fish from that initiative? What is doing the Indonesian government, or the agency responsible to manage the natural resources, to control and regulate the trade of MO?
In the Philippines the status quo prevails, and as consequence the coral reefs and ornamental fish populations keep declining. The central government has other priorities. Coral reefs and MO fish collectors are neglected.
The project in PNG could be the example for many developing countries where this activity takes place, I hope.
Jaime
Jaime,
Steve makes some good points about Les. There is a supply of net-caught fish and I have been importing them and they are getting to some buyers. The supply is expanding. So, there will be fish available to other importers. But, as Steve said the are problems with the fact that the there are other exporters in nothern Bali who deal in cyanide-caught fish and there are legal issues.
Your point is that the central governments in both the Philippines and Indonesia have not been enforcing existing laws against destructive fishing. Actually, this is now also a responsability of local (municipal) governments in both countries. In Indonesia, the devolution of management to the local areas is very new and still is not clear from a legal standpoint.
But, I am confident that with the devolution of power to manage marine resources to the local level, things will improve. In Indonesia, the Department of Forestry is still in control of some areas including issuing CITES export permits for corals, and issuing Health Certificates that funcion as export permits for MO fish and for live rock etc. These reponsabitlities will soon be transferred to the Ministry of Marine Affairs and Fisheries (MMAF). Once that happens, I think you will see improvements in law enforcement and management of coral reef fisheries.
Peter
Steve makes some good points about Les. There is a supply of net-caught fish and I have been importing them and they are getting to some buyers. The supply is expanding. So, there will be fish available to other importers. But, as Steve said the are problems with the fact that the there are other exporters in nothern Bali who deal in cyanide-caught fish and there are legal issues.
Your point is that the central governments in both the Philippines and Indonesia have not been enforcing existing laws against destructive fishing. Actually, this is now also a responsability of local (municipal) governments in both countries. In Indonesia, the devolution of management to the local areas is very new and still is not clear from a legal standpoint.
But, I am confident that with the devolution of power to manage marine resources to the local level, things will improve. In Indonesia, the Department of Forestry is still in control of some areas including issuing CITES export permits for corals, and issuing Health Certificates that funcion as export permits for MO fish and for live rock etc. These reponsabitlities will soon be transferred to the Ministry of Marine Affairs and Fisheries (MMAF). Once that happens, I think you will see improvements in law enforcement and management of coral reef fisheries.
Peter
Chip,
If someone from EcoEz provided the names, I wouldn't have to risk misspelling anyone's name. Kevin K = Kevin Kohen. I think the David V that Kevin mentioned in another thread is probably David Vosseler, but that is just a guess. I'm also wondering if Mark S = Mark Scheffler is also involved. Also Peter S = Peter Scott. I'm just wondering if this is a group of MAC castoffs or something entirely new. To be honest it is sort of interesting that nobody else has expressed any interest in who this new group is. Whomever they are, I wish them well.
Mitch
If someone from EcoEz provided the names, I wouldn't have to risk misspelling anyone's name. Kevin K = Kevin Kohen. I think the David V that Kevin mentioned in another thread is probably David Vosseler, but that is just a guess. I'm also wondering if Mark S = Mark Scheffler is also involved. Also Peter S = Peter Scott. I'm just wondering if this is a group of MAC castoffs or something entirely new. To be honest it is sort of interesting that nobody else has expressed any interest in who this new group is. Whomever they are, I wish them well.
Mitch
clarionreef
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Hey,
EcoEz believes in recycling!
Steve
EcoEz believes in recycling!
Steve
I find it very interesting. Steve spent the last 5 years vilifying these people, and now they are working together and everything is going to be hunky dory 100% perfect in a part of the world and industry that has never seen anything done properly for any length of time. It's alot to swallow. If I'm cynical, it's from watching continual reruns of "recycled" people using the same talking points and accomplishing a whole lot of nothing.. it's like watching presidential politics.
I truly wish them well as I would like to have access to properly caught fish, but before we all heap praise on them I think we need to see more than pretty pictures from under water, we need to see several years of proper management in the *same place*, not a group of people moving from one area to another every year or 2 which is what has been happening.
clarionreef
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People,
The history of reform or non reform as it were is not some casual team sport.
The issues before were often hampered with a leadership crisis that simply would not engage in the field and work with the fisherfolk to anchor the mission.
A mission that many here have often professed to believe in.
Since this effort now places the fisherfolk and productivity, results and "the proper netting and training " at the center of the campaign, thanks to the wisdom of a completely new leadership...and philosophy, I have become interested...and have joined on the proviso that it remain so.
The New Guinea staff is very good and the strong support of the PNG government are new and unprecedented.
My own training team led by some experienced commercial trainers are all new.
The surveying and training are to preclude any grand announcements .
The only talk of this project, been underway now for some time now, has been here and another forum in N.Y.
I post here for the give and take, to spark new ideas, to foster improvement as we go, for the testing of hypothesis and floating of notions from the sharpest forum on the internet for this kind of stuff.
Is that not a good way to go?
"When so many significant facts change, I change my opinion. What should we all do?"
Sit down and give up?
Of course not.
Steve
The history of reform or non reform as it were is not some casual team sport.
The issues before were often hampered with a leadership crisis that simply would not engage in the field and work with the fisherfolk to anchor the mission.
A mission that many here have often professed to believe in.
Since this effort now places the fisherfolk and productivity, results and "the proper netting and training " at the center of the campaign, thanks to the wisdom of a completely new leadership...and philosophy, I have become interested...and have joined on the proviso that it remain so.
The New Guinea staff is very good and the strong support of the PNG government are new and unprecedented.
My own training team led by some experienced commercial trainers are all new.
The surveying and training are to preclude any grand announcements .
The only talk of this project, been underway now for some time now, has been here and another forum in N.Y.
I post here for the give and take, to spark new ideas, to foster improvement as we go, for the testing of hypothesis and floating of notions from the sharpest forum on the internet for this kind of stuff.
Is that not a good way to go?
"When so many significant facts change, I change my opinion. What should we all do?"
Sit down and give up?
Of course not.
Steve
No one is saying you should give up. At the same time, the promise of sustainable, net caught fish has been dangled time and again. The projects always seem great in the planning stages, but somewhere in the reality of actually doing business something seems to go awry.
Both Tonga and Les were talked about as being examples to the rest of the world as to how to do it right. And although they are still catching with nets, there are other issues that seem to be hobbling them in actual production.
I sincerely hope that this one is different, and that it works out, but we won't know until the businessmen get involved and need to turn a profit.
Steve, please be sure to read this as support for what you are doing, because thats what it is.
Both Tonga and Les were talked about as being examples to the rest of the world as to how to do it right. And although they are still catching with nets, there are other issues that seem to be hobbling them in actual production.
I sincerely hope that this one is different, and that it works out, but we won't know until the businessmen get involved and need to turn a profit.
Steve, please be sure to read this as support for what you are doing, because thats what it is.
clarionreef
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Of course I relize that every beggining is not yet a proof of anything conclusive. Leadership becomes the issue as much as anything and leaders are measured in the success they generate or allow.
Things said here echo things I said often as a member of the loyal opposition.
Then again, one does have to be motivated to challenge old dogmas and try still again.
What if we really can do the real thing and the right thing from the outset if allowed to...?
And what if the new leadership has learned and reconfigured [ please no Borg references] ?
What if they actually put together the skills and the team this time to do it properly?
Should you not pick yourself up and do it again!
I think that people who care need to be careful about evolving such a pre-cautionary philosophy that holds that failure before.... condemns us to failure forever.
That is hardly useful in any struggle.
Steve
P.S.
By the way...many fishers in Les and Tonga and the Philippines have often done great work,. If the business people however do not follow up and follow thru and support them, that defines them...not the fisherman.
Training business people to do the right thing is perhaps another project....starting with L.A. and N.Y. perhaps?
:lol:
Things said here echo things I said often as a member of the loyal opposition.
Then again, one does have to be motivated to challenge old dogmas and try still again.
What if we really can do the real thing and the right thing from the outset if allowed to...?
And what if the new leadership has learned and reconfigured [ please no Borg references] ?
What if they actually put together the skills and the team this time to do it properly?
Should you not pick yourself up and do it again!
I think that people who care need to be careful about evolving such a pre-cautionary philosophy that holds that failure before.... condemns us to failure forever.
That is hardly useful in any struggle.
Steve
P.S.
By the way...many fishers in Les and Tonga and the Philippines have often done great work,. If the business people however do not follow up and follow thru and support them, that defines them...not the fisherman.
Training business people to do the right thing is perhaps another project....starting with L.A. and N.Y. perhaps?
:lol:
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