I think that's a very salient point since this is an industry composed of private business interests. If the market is not yet driven by a public outcry for sustainably collected livestock then there needs to be a profit motivated angle for these projects. If the animals are not going to be cheaper to import then they would have to be of such significantly higher quality that it would translate directly to the P&L. -Jim
New Guinea to open soon
- Thread starter clarionreef
- Start date
clarionreef
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- San Francisco
Thank you Jim. I think it far more possible to make Papua New Guinea all netcaught and clean then to make the hobby and trade insist on it.
Hundreds of divers are a lot easier to convert from the get-go then to re-train a million hobbyists, 5 thousand retailers and 100 importers who have rarely shown much concern, especially collectively..
Removing the option to make the wrong choice is a better policy I think.
New Guinea need not ask permission from the market to embark on a policy of 100% netcaught fish collecting and managing their resource properly.
Of course they can be verified clean in an official way for those who care....but for those who don't care...they still shouldn't be able to score anything caught with cyanide from PNG...just as in Hawaii or Australia.
Steve
Hundreds of divers are a lot easier to convert from the get-go then to re-train a million hobbyists, 5 thousand retailers and 100 importers who have rarely shown much concern, especially collectively..
Removing the option to make the wrong choice is a better policy I think.
New Guinea need not ask permission from the market to embark on a policy of 100% netcaught fish collecting and managing their resource properly.
Of course they can be verified clean in an official way for those who care....but for those who don't care...they still shouldn't be able to score anything caught with cyanide from PNG...just as in Hawaii or Australia.
Steve
and the strong support of the PNG government are new and unprecedented.
This is the new and MORE important component of this project, government commitment and willingness .
You guys, have the knowledge the PNG governments doesn't have regarding ALL aspects of the trade of MO from collection points to exporting facilities. That knowledge is capital and put all of you in a position to develop a real sustainable and environmentally friendly trade of MO in that part of the world.
No doubt that this initiative could open the door to show other countries, their governments and industry members how things have to be done. The ones that won't follow will be out of business.
It is a "nice" surprise to know that MAC people are working on it. Don't forget.... you never know.
jaime
[/u][/b]
This is the new and MORE important component of this project, government commitment and willingness .
You guys, have the knowledge the PNG governments doesn't have regarding ALL aspects of the trade of MO from collection points to exporting facilities. That knowledge is capital and put all of you in a position to develop a real sustainable and environmentally friendly trade of MO in that part of the world.
No doubt that this initiative could open the door to show other countries, their governments and industry members how things have to be done. The ones that won't follow will be out of business.
It is a "nice" surprise to know that MAC people are working on it. Don't forget.... you never know.
jaime
[/u][/b]
- Location
- Tenafly, NJ
devils advocate":d2eqravx said:
which is stupid because instead of a hobbyist purchasing ONE properly collected AUS Copperband for example, they'll purchase SIX Indo ones which ends up costing more money & lives by the time they get a good one.
clarionreef
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- San Francisco
Ahhh,
A cyanide fisherman told me the answer to this one when I showed how nets are bought one time a year [$15.00] and cyanide at $6.00 a kilo 25 X a year
He said they pay less money.....weekly and therefore do not notice it so much what it costs for the whole year.
Buying and dying skinny starving chelmons 6 X a year to get a good one seems like the same mindset.
I remember the ol days when Phil Shane at Quality Marine told me of the impossibility of selling New Caledonian netcaught tibicen angels to retailers for just 2 dollars more then the cyanide caught ones he also supplied.
"They never support their own interests" he said as they live in the short term on a daily basis. His point was that it was suicide to stock only netcaught alternatives as they simply will not sell but to very few people....handicapping those people in the marketplace!
Every step in the chain supports this "treason" in a huge way with reform minded people hardly even apparent in the game.[ internet chatter notwithstanding]
This is why reform has to happen for a countrys own reasons...
We in the consumer countries are lesser people then we like to claim.
Steve
A cyanide fisherman told me the answer to this one when I showed how nets are bought one time a year [$15.00] and cyanide at $6.00 a kilo 25 X a year
He said they pay less money.....weekly and therefore do not notice it so much what it costs for the whole year.
Buying and dying skinny starving chelmons 6 X a year to get a good one seems like the same mindset.
I remember the ol days when Phil Shane at Quality Marine told me of the impossibility of selling New Caledonian netcaught tibicen angels to retailers for just 2 dollars more then the cyanide caught ones he also supplied.
"They never support their own interests" he said as they live in the short term on a daily basis. His point was that it was suicide to stock only netcaught alternatives as they simply will not sell but to very few people....handicapping those people in the marketplace!
Every step in the chain supports this "treason" in a huge way with reform minded people hardly even apparent in the game.[ internet chatter notwithstanding]
This is why reform has to happen for a countrys own reasons...
We in the consumer countries are lesser people then we like to claim.
Steve
For most consumers the main concern is cost, but some will pay more for quality.
I don't think its fair to blame the consumer for being lowest price centric because the industry has grown the hobby based on low prices. In the last 20 years it seems stores have more and more been using animals as loss leaders, so I don't think we can expect consumers to expect anything other than what the industry has made them come to expect - just like with any volume industry.
I don't think its fair to blame the consumer for being lowest price centric because the industry has grown the hobby based on low prices. In the last 20 years it seems stores have more and more been using animals as loss leaders, so I don't think we can expect consumers to expect anything other than what the industry has made them come to expect - just like with any volume industry.
clarionreef
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- San Francisco
If that is true ...then all the more reason to create the incentives for reform abroad .
Oblivious to all but price is a consumer that cannot be enlisted in the campaign for anything beyond his immediate, unenlightened self interest.
The industry is not a single organism and responsible, netcaught dealers cannot survive if the consumer initiates and drives the low ball agenda to the exclusion of all else.
This is a trade driven by consumers with good fishes ignored and lesser ones purchased all day long all over America.
Since when do dealers want lower prices and less profits? They read their audience and respond to it or lose the sale. The consumer is the final paymaster...he is also the one futher removed from the sea and as such, knows less and sees less of the effect of his unconsciousness and uninformed choices.
Dealers will generally do anything to please a customer....including low-ball to give them what they crave....cheap wildlife to play with at home. A scenario that ruins reefs and profitability at the same time.
This trade is a strange one and at odds with itself.
Steve
Oblivious to all but price is a consumer that cannot be enlisted in the campaign for anything beyond his immediate, unenlightened self interest.
The industry is not a single organism and responsible, netcaught dealers cannot survive if the consumer initiates and drives the low ball agenda to the exclusion of all else.
This is a trade driven by consumers with good fishes ignored and lesser ones purchased all day long all over America.
Since when do dealers want lower prices and less profits? They read their audience and respond to it or lose the sale. The consumer is the final paymaster...he is also the one futher removed from the sea and as such, knows less and sees less of the effect of his unconsciousness and uninformed choices.
Dealers will generally do anything to please a customer....including low-ball to give them what they crave....cheap wildlife to play with at home. A scenario that ruins reefs and profitability at the same time.
This trade is a strange one and at odds with itself.
Steve
Hey Steve,
Love the work you are doing there in PNG.
With regard to the "Super Percs", I would like to get your input on their natural environment as I suspect it has more to do with the environment that lead to their natural melanistic coloration.
(1) What kind of anemones are they associated with? In the two of the picture, it seems that those are gigantea carpet anemones.
(2) What kind of altitude are they found? Are they found in shallow water or deep water or all over the place?
Have you found any correlation that might lead to that melanistic coloration?
I noticed that some certain Indo shipments might have percs that come in with those coloration
Thanks for any insights
Love the work you are doing there in PNG.
With regard to the "Super Percs", I would like to get your input on their natural environment as I suspect it has more to do with the environment that lead to their natural melanistic coloration.
(1) What kind of anemones are they associated with? In the two of the picture, it seems that those are gigantea carpet anemones.
(2) What kind of altitude are they found? Are they found in shallow water or deep water or all over the place?
Have you found any correlation that might lead to that melanistic coloration?
I noticed that some certain Indo shipments might have percs that come in with those coloration
Thanks for any insights
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Hello V,
They are gianteas, ie. Stichodactyla gigantea and are found in the shallows near eel grass and far from where the trade has ever been.
The super ones w/ half black covering are a lot scarcer in nature then the normally black and orange ones....even here.
I take the ultra color as just serendipity...abberants .... just very cool stuff to find. I look forward to seeing Renantes all black perc w/ orange skull cap.
Steve
They are gianteas, ie. Stichodactyla gigantea and are found in the shallows near eel grass and far from where the trade has ever been.
The super ones w/ half black covering are a lot scarcer in nature then the normally black and orange ones....even here.
I take the ultra color as just serendipity...abberants .... just very cool stuff to find. I look forward to seeing Renantes all black perc w/ orange skull cap.
Steve
Steve, I find this to be an interesting discussion. Please don't take anythin below as an attack or non support, please take it as a dialogue rather than an argument. Thanks! 
Always a good idea.
Though, isn't that the hobby in a nutshell? Most keep reef tanks because they want something pretty and interesting to them in their homes, not because they are trying to do something beyond themselves.
Again, I don't think they initiate it, rather they are part of it. Lowballing seems to somewhat ride up and down the COC as everyone tries to sell their 'products'. The consumer doesn't initiate bag lot sales, 20% off Mondays, price matching or selling fish for cost - thats vendors trying to attract business. If vendors didn't sell the fish cheap, people couldn't buy them cheap.
Which brings me to a popular question that usually gets an answer of silence - how are consumers to determine the good fishes from the lesser ones?
When they are involved in a volume business. Hitting an economy of scale really means volume, which is about moving more 'product' priced low for less money. I think that, and the idea that business must involve constant growth, is another large part of the enviornment of low cost and the cut flower mentality all through the COC. Its important to note that this doesn't include everyone, and that there are several vendors who are trying to hit the economy of scale while not selling for the lowest price.
Since he is so far removed, shouldn't the businesses higher in the COC that are more informed charge more rather than less? If vendors didn't sell fish cheap, then consumers couldn't buy them cheap. It seems to be a two way street.
Indeed!
cortez marine":3c3blrni said:
Always a good idea.
Though, isn't that the hobby in a nutshell? Most keep reef tanks because they want something pretty and interesting to them in their homes, not because they are trying to do something beyond themselves.
Again, I don't think they initiate it, rather they are part of it. Lowballing seems to somewhat ride up and down the COC as everyone tries to sell their 'products'. The consumer doesn't initiate bag lot sales, 20% off Mondays, price matching or selling fish for cost - thats vendors trying to attract business. If vendors didn't sell the fish cheap, people couldn't buy them cheap.
Which brings me to a popular question that usually gets an answer of silence - how are consumers to determine the good fishes from the lesser ones?
When they are involved in a volume business. Hitting an economy of scale really means volume, which is about moving more 'product' priced low for less money. I think that, and the idea that business must involve constant growth, is another large part of the enviornment of low cost and the cut flower mentality all through the COC. Its important to note that this doesn't include everyone, and that there are several vendors who are trying to hit the economy of scale while not selling for the lowest price.
Since he is so far removed, shouldn't the businesses higher in the COC that are more informed charge more rather than less? If vendors didn't sell fish cheap, then consumers couldn't buy them cheap. It seems to be a two way street.
Indeed!
These 2 fish are from the same soloman island shipment about 8 years ago.
http://www.inverts.com/storepics/pages/IMG_0308.html
I've also had some really dark percs that were listed as "indo" but never seen another one as black as this soloman perc. I definitely believe that steve is correct, it's a rare variant, not diet related. The offspring of this pair all come out like the "normal" father.
http://www.inverts.com/storepics/pages/IMG_0308.html
I've also had some really dark percs that were listed as "indo" but never seen another one as black as this soloman perc. I definitely believe that steve is correct, it's a rare variant, not diet related. The offspring of this pair all come out like the "normal" father.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
True,
There is always a retailer in every area that breaks out of the pack, runs it like the flea market and ruins the value of everything.
He sells at cost [ having other income making this possible] reads his public well and gives it away to keep busy.
Since he always has other income, this slash and burn retailing is made possible.
This is not the trades plan, but that of a traitor in their midst who open the gates from the inside and precipitates the price wars.
Still, the trade in general starts to give inin order to compete and pretty soon, scarcer marinelife sells cheaper and cheaper....and as gas/frieght prices go up. They become a party to their own destruction.
Letting the fate of coral reefs hang in the balance of a trades so completely focused on its own survival issues is dangerous.
As you have agreed, they cannot help much as they are constantly occupied with the incessant search for a cheaper fish and coral....to satisfy their customers who are constantly occupied with the incessant search for a cheaper fish and coral.
Their skill sets have shifted into survival mode while NGO groups and reformers always assumed they could have tapped into the imagined riches of the trade and make it pay a share in their projects.
An economic upswing makes it easier for people to care and do the right thing, as surely as the downswing works the other way.
Now we are in what swng?
I know what we can do...how bout a bag sale for a coral reef fundraiser!
Steve
clarionreef
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- Location
- San Francisco
Rich
The perc is not endemic to PNG and of course never purported to be.
The epicenter is however, in PNG. It is the same with the leukokranos.
The Indo ones are from Irian Jaya ...the left part of the island of New Guinea. They are shipped in by boat to Bali and endure much to get there.
Solomons has gotten plenty of em as we all know.
I suspect that our really nice ones are much more abundant though then anywhere else...and we will leave the anemones and the tiny ones behind to insure it remains that way.
Steve
The perc is not endemic to PNG and of course never purported to be.
The epicenter is however, in PNG. It is the same with the leukokranos.
The Indo ones are from Irian Jaya ...the left part of the island of New Guinea. They are shipped in by boat to Bali and endure much to get there.
Solomons has gotten plenty of em as we all know.
I suspect that our really nice ones are much more abundant though then anywhere else...and we will leave the anemones and the tiny ones behind to insure it remains that way.
Steve
clarionreef
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- Location
- San Francisco
I've seen em in ritteris but its almost always in gigantea.
They also fight and quarrel and are harder to gang pack and handle as in the case of the ocellaris.
Ocellaris are so cheap they are killed in scores thru gross, purposeful mishandling. The importers in manila demand a tight pack to land them cheap...this buyer ordered stress-pack gives little water to dilute metabolic wastes.
The upshot is that they marinate in low level ammonia in a hot tropical country.
The ammonia slowly burns their slime coat and sets them up for the skin peel we often see and bacterial infections later.
True perculas need seperation and that makes them a hassle to handle, [ thank goodness] so they cost more like a maroon which has the same issues.
Ocellaris are killed too often and would be even cheaper if they weren't.
When people say hey...thats the way it is....it should be said that thats the way it is in the Philippines....and often Bali.
There is no problem easier to reform then this IN THE FIELD...but...the old business chain in Manila wouldn't support it if it costs a dime more per fish cuz they will claim their American buyers wouldn't support them...who will claim their retailers won't support them...who claim their customers won't support them...
The Europeans and Asian buyers have also supported this ruining of the ocellaris as well for all these years without ever engaging.
Some bargain hard and drive the prices down to pay for the predictable dead.....instead of ever working closer with the divers...which the Manila and Bali buyers simply refuse to do with few exceptions.
Working with divers humanizes them and makes it harder to cheat them...so they stay detached.
Nice trade huh?
Steve
They also fight and quarrel and are harder to gang pack and handle as in the case of the ocellaris.
Ocellaris are so cheap they are killed in scores thru gross, purposeful mishandling. The importers in manila demand a tight pack to land them cheap...this buyer ordered stress-pack gives little water to dilute metabolic wastes.
The upshot is that they marinate in low level ammonia in a hot tropical country.
The ammonia slowly burns their slime coat and sets them up for the skin peel we often see and bacterial infections later.
True perculas need seperation and that makes them a hassle to handle, [ thank goodness] so they cost more like a maroon which has the same issues.
Ocellaris are killed too often and would be even cheaper if they weren't.
When people say hey...thats the way it is....it should be said that thats the way it is in the Philippines....and often Bali.
There is no problem easier to reform then this IN THE FIELD...but...the old business chain in Manila wouldn't support it if it costs a dime more per fish cuz they will claim their American buyers wouldn't support them...who will claim their retailers won't support them...who claim their customers won't support them...
The Europeans and Asian buyers have also supported this ruining of the ocellaris as well for all these years without ever engaging.
Some bargain hard and drive the prices down to pay for the predictable dead.....instead of ever working closer with the divers...which the Manila and Bali buyers simply refuse to do with few exceptions.
Working with divers humanizes them and makes it harder to cheat them...so they stay detached.
Nice trade huh?
Steve
cortez marine":6sl6a7cw said:
It would be nice if it was just one here and there, but I don't believe that reflects reality. These aren't isolated instances.
In the economy today, we are even seeing stores that were 'good' trying the bag lot sale to generate traffic to the store.
IME, that is not why they sell fish at cost. They are using fish as loss leaders to get people into the store to buy other stuff. Fish are cheap and they die, so the idea is to blow them out of the store fast to minimize losses and husbandry costs while getting people into the store to buy other stuff.
Yep.
Yep.
I disagree a little here. You make more money on dry goods that don't die on you than livestock, so you get people to come in for the cheap fish.
So will quality be enough to entice LFS and the consumer to buy?
It's understood that net caught fish will command a premium, and coupled with quotas, prices for certain species may be forced higher due to simple supply and demand economics. If airfreight rates are also higher than that of Bali or Manila, PNG would be put at a further price disadvantage. Hopefully, pricing of the fish will be close enough to make the purchase decision one based solely on quality and sustainability.
It's understood that net caught fish will command a premium, and coupled with quotas, prices for certain species may be forced higher due to simple supply and demand economics. If airfreight rates are also higher than that of Bali or Manila, PNG would be put at a further price disadvantage. Hopefully, pricing of the fish will be close enough to make the purchase decision one based solely on quality and sustainability.
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