Zero Degrees of Separation

[Fish_dave]

Wonderreef, Again I agree with what you posted above. PAF has become complacent and could use some new blood to give new and fresh ideas to our business. I have seen this many times with retail stores that become set in their ways then the new guy moves in with more excitement and new methods and the old store either steps up to the new level or goes away. It is pretty easy to see this happen and fully understand it but it is much harder to fix the problem. I think about it alot, putting a new plan into action has been more difficult, my personality tends to resist change even when I know that it is needed. PAF is working on some new ideas and methods that I think will help us, mainly in our ability to obtain high demand items and in our customer interface.

I know that there is the apperance that Blue Zoo gets an advantage from PAF, if I ran it to the logical conclusion (what most on the outside assume is happening) then PAF would indeed be using Blue Zoo as a vehicle for retail sales. In actual practice it is pretty far removed. Internally here at PAF the sales guys see how far Blue Zoo is removed from the PAF operation so it has become a non issue to the sales force. Blue Zoo just does not get many cherry corals from PAF, the sales guys get by far the bulk of what is available. Blue Zoo buys from a lot of other sources and does come up with some nice things. PAF mainly fills the everyday bread and butter orders for them. I am not trying to change anyones mind here, I understand that the assumtion is that we are one and the same. I have stated how it is, people can make the assumption that they want. Blue Zoo is not my plan for how to reform PAF, it will be assumed that it is but it is not. I ended up as a shareholder in Blue Zoo as a fluke, it is a long story that most will not believe so I won't get into it but it was certainly not on purpose to transform how PAF does business or to make up for slacking sales.

I agree with what Wonderreef posted, there is a lot that we could do to become better. Either we step up and change or go the way of the dinosaur.

Dave

 

[aquaticvet1]

I do not think the main problem is one of who gets PAF's good specimens, BlueZoo or the other customers.

The real question is, who in their right mind would send hard earned dollars to a vendor who is going to take that money and build a website, staff, advertising campaign, facility etc that is going to compete and take business away from them??? For me this was not a fear of losing a cherry coral but the reality that my dollars sent to PAF would be used against my business which supports PAF. Anyone who supports that concept should not be in business.

Guys, this is the basics of business, "do not send money to your competitor to be used against you"---------do ya think?

 

[wonderreef1]

Yes Race, for the most part I agree with your above post. Also, a huge factor for me and most retailers is that you with QM and BZ with PAF can offer a much larger variety of fish (mostly it is the fish, but also corals) than I can at my store. I simply can not have even one or multiples of every fish sitting here waiting for that one order or customer that may or may not come in, where as a wholesaler can do this simply by the fact that they are moving large quantities of these fish daily and replenish every few days and so do not sit on that one fish for weeks until it sells. The access to huge varieties and quantities of stock is a big factor that I can not compete against, plus the lower cost via economy of scales and also due to not having to ship it in as I must. The balance of the scale is tipped so much when the wholesaler is the retailer even if the businesses are totally separate, the retail operation has access to all the stock. It is not just a factor not getting my share of cherries.

 

[wonderreef1]

Dave, interesting that you feel that PAF could do better and gain more business via changes and improvements, I would be better off and hope to hear that selling direct to my customers is not part of the changes. The BZ venture has harmed your wholesale business, at least to some extent, maybe the gained sales via BZ have more than made up for that. As far as the sales force being OK with the BZ venture, I would say that is not what they have said to some of their clients---they need the paycheck and will not likely bite the hand that feeds them so you may not be getting the full extent of the story, I know I gave my sale person a thrashing about it and I was told many customers are feeling the same way and this sales person was none to happy about it.

 

[aquaticvet1]

The money was the big part for me. BlueZoo does not merely exist, it was and is being infused with my cash and that of others who supported PAF. Specifically, being infused with Dave's cash which we helped provide him. The physical separation of the two businesses as Dave claims means nothing, cash moves through bank accounts, not sump pumps.

I cannot believe that retailers continue to support them. Perhaps many do not know or are simply poorly run businesses which deserve to go down and make way for the rest of us. Having said that, I do respect Dave's decision but being a paying customer wish he would have told me before I found out on the street. Reefermadness was a similar denial and PAF midterm abortion.

 

[wonderreef1]

The line about cash moving from bank accounts and not sump pumps is a good line and does wrap up the issue. However, I think you are getting a bit abrassive now. I am not doing some public call for a boycott as you are, I am simply stating my personal experience and thoughts and have asked several times about other wholesalers doing this so I can become more educated in my buying decisions. So far as of this time I know of QM and PAF that are selling direct to my customers, who are the others if any? I personally choose to not support the practice, what otherretailers do is their choice.

 

[Fish_dave]

Race, You did not find out about it on the street. You found out from Kevin whom I told over the phone. Only later did you hear it from Chris.

Dave

 

[aquaticvet1]

I am not asking for a boycott. People including Dave and PAF can spend their money how they choose.

 

[wonderreef1]

Pardon me, but it sounded like that in a few of your posts, if you reread them you might see that. Anyway, the point here for me is to find out who else is selling direct--just the facts and not rumors. Plus, obviously, I must become better at what I do so as to somehow remain profitable if in fact the industry is turning in this direction. Stopping to fund my competition is one small step, other innovation must be done so I remain at the top of my game.

 

[aquaticvet1]

Dave,
Kevin and I discussed the suspicions of BlueZoo and Reefermadness before you confirmed it. In fact Reefermadness was only confirmed when a broker attempted to sell it to me.

None of this really matters though and it is just a personal concern coming from a former customer. We will both do fine in the online arena. As the world turns there will be enough to go around and best of all, the hobbyist will have more choices than ever......

 

[aquaticvet1]

wonderreef, I do not know the facts so will move on.

 

[gdw]

Greetings All !

... some of the smaller wholesalers are doing more to gain and hold the customers ...

Could you be more specific as to what you perceive the smaller wholesalers are doing to gain and hold customers that is different (compared to what the big kids are doing)?


Many Thanks !

 

[wonderreef1]

There are a host of product and service innovations that the small guys do that make me feel they want to earn my business every week vs. the attitude that I am one of hundreds begging to get a few crumbs from the big guys.

 

[condiman]

Well after reading all of those post I do see where you are comming from. I know I have only been in business for three years so I am still learning. I can see now how if a wholesaler desided to sell retail or etail can cause lots of issues in the long run. I mean how can any small retail compete with a wholesaler selling retail. I can now see how all they are doing is just getting greedy.

 

[gdw]

Greetings All !

Thanks for the response, wonderreef. I was wondering what you meant by, "a host of product and service innovations" ... can you list some examples? I ask, in part, because I agree with Dave and Race that the supply chain is currently undergoing some fundamental changes, the likes of which I haven't seen during the last 20 years.

It seems to me that the "importer link" is where much of the force of these changes is focused. Some of these forces benefit a LFS retailer's relationship with their customers (increased availability of a wider diversity of specimens, improved acclimation/survivability through better import shipping practices & warehouse husbandry, for example), while other forces do not (the emergent cross-circuiting between the historic importer-LFS model, ecommerce, and transshipping, for example). Stress points, such as the "importer link" of the supply chain, are where the innovations that are destined to become standard practices oftentimes first emerge. What innovations are you seeing from the "small guys" that will allow them to better compete with the "big guys" on 104th street?

Many Thanks !

 

[Fish_dave]

Good post, this should bring out some interesting ideas

Dave

 

[condiman]

Honestly with what I have been puttin up with. It all comes down to attitude and treatment of there clients. I deal with QM and AMA and those are the only two that I have found to treat me with the respect that I deserve. There are some smaller ones that I deal with and they give me such great respect cuz they are like me in a sence that you will get more return business if you give a lil respect. To which some of the larger ones I think have lost in time since they have gotten larger.

 

[swsaltwater]

Quality seems to be above it all when it comes to dropshipping. They do get in bed with some etailers but do it in a much better/fair way IMO then the rest. Currently I only deal with SDC and QM on a regular basis. I am thinking of expanding to Route 66 next year just because they get some nice corals where everyone else is middle of the road right now. Just gotta pay the piper there as it is more wholetail prices as to wholesale....But there is a 20% interest in high end stuff so it has it's place in the market that is harder to get via tranship. Every wholesaler is involved in some way with your competetion so I commend you on standing up, however since all do something with etailers you just need to suck that up and pick your poison. PAF has gone way over the line by establishing ownership in a retail outfit, but I do not see any other wholesaler making that move since it was a big mistake for ERI and FFexpress. Since I got the ugliest shipment ever since that came out I could only assume the good stuff went to BZA. It might be I ordered on a week they got crap in but I doubt that since in the 3 years prior I never had a bad shipment from them and I would think my long time sales rep would have said wait to order like he had in the past....20 wonderful different shade of brown in that shipment including a burnt brown was supposed to be "orange" scoly for 40 bucks.....He is still in the tanks at 5 bucks and getting no action. Most the rest got thrown out. Right now the landlord has forced me into some construction against my will by replacing the roof so I am not ordering much this month out of fear of weather conditions. He is a retard for doing it in the winter. Luckily Decembers usually slow a bit and I was prepared for that.

 

[wonderreef1]

gdw, I don't see the importer end change you speak of. I do see a change in the upcoming smaller wholesalers, many of them having been former cherry-pickers around LA that have now started their own small wholesale operations, some newer than others. Such places are Consistent Sea, Route 66, etc, etc--not trying to single any out with my following comments.

Some wholesalers are difficult to work with and have elitist attitudes by virtual of the type of product they sell or are outright liars and crooks, others seem to do about anything to get the order. My comments are based upon my own personal experiences directly with the suppliers.

Just a few examples off the top of my head (not based on any one supplier) of some traits in suppliers. THis list is by no means exhaustive nor all includive nor limited--I can come up with more but these are just a few items off the top of my head based my my thoughts only and not related to anyone else heere or in the trade so some may seem unimportant or foolish to others here:
1. They do not sell retail in any way.
The "they" above refers directly to the wholesaler. The fact that they sell to etailers is NOT a problem as has been mentioned by others in this thread, in this modern age every retailer can and should have a website and sell online--anyone can do this and this is NOT an unfair advantage for anyone. The fact that some etailers may be nothing but a basement operation vs your more overhead costly brick and mortar is your choice not that of the wholesaler and by them selling to the basement guy in no way bothers me---as long as the wholesalers themselves are not setting up their own site or have a site they own run under a different name then I see no issue whatsoever. The point here is they do not sell directly themselves to my potential customers.
2. An honest up to date stock list, not one padded with all kinds of stuff they do not have just to get you to call in an order. And please don't just send the exactly same list every week for years, actually do some real work and put together a list of items you really have in stock, you all have enough employees that you can assign this task to someone each week. I don't know how many times I get a list on the weekend and then go into that wholesaler the next day only to see virtually none of the items actually in stock--this really ticks me off and shows the true corporate reputation (as I spoke of before in my prior posts to this thread). The honesty issue is really a big one and usually one that permeates the entire operation, it seems that many wholesalers feel they can not be honest and stay profitable---clear examples of this are the stock list I just spoke of, telling you something is better in color or size than it really is, telling you something came from a more exotic locale than it actually did just to make the sale, telling you something is rare or in high demand just to make the sale, and the list goes on and on (no interst in starting a bash fest here). What they don't know is I have more experience in the business than they do and by them playing me for the fool they are simply eroding my trust and confidence in them. Don't talk down to your customer regardless of what you think you might think you "know" about that customer---your assumption is usually wrong----don't we all often see this in retail? Watch what you say as it will come back to bite you--just tell the truth and I will be loyal (as long as item 1. above is not violated), I have several suppliers that are brutally honest and I reward them with my consistent business. Get a crap shipment, just tell me wait and order next week. I order 20 Acros and you have only 6 good ones, send me the 6 and tell me the rest are crap---yes there are suppliers that will in fact do this--if you have not found one then look around more.
3. A good variety of quality stock. Notice this is not the first item on my list. I have some suppliers that have a very limited range of stock, but they adhere to items 1. and 2. above and the stock they have is top notch. Also note that cost is no where mentioned, I have no issue paying the asked price if the stock is what I want and items 1. and 2. above are good. Now, having said all this it would be nice to have a one stop wholesaler, but that is not reality. I love PAF for its variety of stock and some of that can never be reproduced at other suppliers, but other things are lacking.
4. I like dealing with the owner, not a sales guy. Don't get me wrong, there are some awesome sales guys, but I prefer to deal with the owner. An owner that sits in the office all the time is to me like a restaurant owner that never enters the kitchen or dining room---the customers experience is just not the same.
5. Call me weekly, just touch base with me, tell me what you have that is good and what you are expecting to get in and sometimes just call to talk to me instead of just being an order taking machine. Point being---communicate with me and I am not asking for the red carpet all the time I am not asking to be your buddy but we after all are in the same business and if you don't talk with me and I with you then rumors start and neither of us knows about what the end consumer wants and the trends etc.
6. Offer some killer specials to get me to order from you weekly and change them weekly. I will order a lot more than just those specials and I can pass on the savings of the specials to my customers.
7. Send photos of some nice stock to gain my interest. Now, there are places that do this but the pics are not honest or their pricing on those items is extremely high just becuase they took a pic and segregated that stock. While I said price is not a most important factor I will not be gouged either.
8. Do everything within your power to make me successful. Talk to me, relate your experience and I mine and give me some hints for new things you have done that I might institute at my store or relate some tidbits of wisdom you heard from another customer that I might try or tell me hey you never order such and such and you know such and such really sells well for other guys maybe try some. There are a lot of other things in this catagory, but the goal of the wholesaler should be to make thier customers feel as if they are their only customer and honstly want you to succed. You see if the wholesaler has his hand in a retail operation too then he really does not want you to succed to much!! Get it--do you understand now!!!
9. Offer me some items unique to just you. On this front there are guys that offer unique box lots, or frag assorted items and offer a wide range of nice sized frags at a good price or they have somemother things just they offer--by means of their own doing and not due to a unique supplier of theirs

OK, the list can go on and on, but these are a few for now. Time for football and forgetting about all the above for a while.

 

[gdw]

Greetings All !

wonderreef ... you taking the time to generate a response with such depth is more appreciated than you can know.

Many Thanks ! ...