Zero Degrees of Separation
- Thread starter wonderreef1
- Start date
There have been some interesting replies. I find the one from Wonderreef quite interesting mainly in that he seems to list items that are important to him that would lead him to buy from small operations. Many of his examples are points that can only really be done properly by small operations. Maybe the industry is headed towards a small operation / high service sector and the big box higher efficiancy / low service sector. That has happened in most other industries with the small / high service operations being mainly forced out. Don't hammer me for that statement, I am not saying it is going to happen in the fish industry, I am just looking at most other retail industries over the past 25 years or so. Here are some of my thoughts on Wonderreefs points.
Point 1 I won't go there, we have covered that pretty well already and it is pretty straight forward.
Point 2 Stock lists are difficult the larger you get and the more stock you sell and receive daily. Some do it better than others but the fact remains that the smaller your operation the easier a current stock list is to produce. The big guys have stock coming and going hourly throughout the day. The smaller guys deal with only a few shipments and have far less in transit. It is easy to keep a current stock list when you do 5,000.00 business a day, much harder when you are doing 30,000.00 per day. Customers tend to all order the same hard to get items, put it on a stock list and 20 customers will all order all that you have. What is the solution? don't put it on the list and give the items to your choice of customer? Then it is playing favorites, put it on the list and not everyone gets the item and you are blamed for pumping up your stock list without having the product. For the small guys this is easier, you have fewer customers and can sell them one by one.
Point 3 The big guys have more variety but on the other hand they have more customers buying that variety. I know what many of the small guys get as stock, we break down the consolidated shipments for many of the major exporters. The big guys get 50 - 60 boxes and the small guys get 5 - 6 boxes. The exporters want to please all customers so the little orders get a share of the cherries, they may get 2 ultra echinos in there 6 boxes and I get 8 in my 60 boxes. My 60 boxes have much more bread and butter items and more of the "average quality" items that the exporter has to move to stay in business. This means percentage wise the small guys have less average product that they have to move. I am not complaining, it is just the way it is. The smaller guys are generally much more demanding with the exporters also, they buy 10% of the product but do 60% of the complaining.
Point 4 With a small operation it is much easier to deal with the owner. In many cases the owner is the sales guy, picker, book keeper, everything so he is easy to talk to. The larger guys on 104th just could not have the owner talk with every customer, it is not possible time wise. We have to rely on sales people that can have a host of issues that the owner does not endorse. Sales people are often cowboys, they say what they think will make the sale or pass the blame for failings somewhere else. If I were to talk to every customer I would not have time left to run the business. When a customer calls me I do take the time to talk with them however.
Point 1 I won't go there, we have covered that pretty well already and it is pretty straight forward.
Point 2 Stock lists are difficult the larger you get and the more stock you sell and receive daily. Some do it better than others but the fact remains that the smaller your operation the easier a current stock list is to produce. The big guys have stock coming and going hourly throughout the day. The smaller guys deal with only a few shipments and have far less in transit. It is easy to keep a current stock list when you do 5,000.00 business a day, much harder when you are doing 30,000.00 per day. Customers tend to all order the same hard to get items, put it on a stock list and 20 customers will all order all that you have. What is the solution? don't put it on the list and give the items to your choice of customer? Then it is playing favorites, put it on the list and not everyone gets the item and you are blamed for pumping up your stock list without having the product. For the small guys this is easier, you have fewer customers and can sell them one by one.
Point 3 The big guys have more variety but on the other hand they have more customers buying that variety. I know what many of the small guys get as stock, we break down the consolidated shipments for many of the major exporters. The big guys get 50 - 60 boxes and the small guys get 5 - 6 boxes. The exporters want to please all customers so the little orders get a share of the cherries, they may get 2 ultra echinos in there 6 boxes and I get 8 in my 60 boxes. My 60 boxes have much more bread and butter items and more of the "average quality" items that the exporter has to move to stay in business. This means percentage wise the small guys have less average product that they have to move. I am not complaining, it is just the way it is. The smaller guys are generally much more demanding with the exporters also, they buy 10% of the product but do 60% of the complaining.
Point 4 With a small operation it is much easier to deal with the owner. In many cases the owner is the sales guy, picker, book keeper, everything so he is easy to talk to. The larger guys on 104th just could not have the owner talk with every customer, it is not possible time wise. We have to rely on sales people that can have a host of issues that the owner does not endorse. Sales people are often cowboys, they say what they think will make the sale or pass the blame for failings somewhere else. If I were to talk to every customer I would not have time left to run the business. When a customer calls me I do take the time to talk with them however.
Point 5 I agree, customers should be called weekly. Some customers like this, others do not want to be bothered that much but I do agree some type of contact should be made weekly even if it is just an email. We are very bad at this at PAF. Again the business really relys on its sales team to do this job, some are good at it and some are very bad at it.
Point 6 I see this as both good and bad. The killer specials that have been popping up have done a lot to cheapen the price of some animals, often to the detriment of those animals being regularly available. Customers remember the lowest price and are reluctant to pay more than that when the special is gone. There are many examples of animals whose price kept dropping in the trade until it became unsustainable and they are no longer collected and offered in the trade. On the other hand specials are good to help boost business and do get attention. It is something that can bite both ways. Personally I think that the way QM has handled specials is much more responsible than the SDC, UWW, and sometimes PAF practice of discounting things 40, 50, percent or more. These large discounts tend to ruin the targeted fish for future business.
Point 7 Pictures are a good idea, I like it and most of my sales guys have access to a camera and send pictures to their customers. Some are better at it than others. Again the problem with pictures is that with a large operation where things are moving in and out quickly items can be sold before the customer gets an order for a specific animal back to us. This generally upsets the customer as he was sold a particular item. Again this is easier for the smaller guy who does not have as many customers after the same corals.
Point 8 This is again a sales person issue for the larger wholesalers, the good sales people do this and are quite good at it. The bad sales guys, well they are bad at it. The smaller operations where it is generally the owner doing the selling or the owner and just one sales guy are in a better position to be able to do this.
Point 9 Well most everyone nowdays has something that is unique to their operation. That is why when I had retail stores I bought from a bunch of different wholesalers. Each of them are generally better at something than the other guys. If you limit your self to one supplier you will miss out on some items.
To me it looks like most of wonderreefs issues are with the size of the wholesaler. The points that he brought up are dealt with much better by a small operation and personal service. Most of the small guys want to grow but with growth will come the issues that wonderreef does not like. This brings us around again to the high service / big box supply chain. This is interesting stuff, I think that things are in flux and we are in for some fundamental changes.
Dave
Point 6 I see this as both good and bad. The killer specials that have been popping up have done a lot to cheapen the price of some animals, often to the detriment of those animals being regularly available. Customers remember the lowest price and are reluctant to pay more than that when the special is gone. There are many examples of animals whose price kept dropping in the trade until it became unsustainable and they are no longer collected and offered in the trade. On the other hand specials are good to help boost business and do get attention. It is something that can bite both ways. Personally I think that the way QM has handled specials is much more responsible than the SDC, UWW, and sometimes PAF practice of discounting things 40, 50, percent or more. These large discounts tend to ruin the targeted fish for future business.
Point 7 Pictures are a good idea, I like it and most of my sales guys have access to a camera and send pictures to their customers. Some are better at it than others. Again the problem with pictures is that with a large operation where things are moving in and out quickly items can be sold before the customer gets an order for a specific animal back to us. This generally upsets the customer as he was sold a particular item. Again this is easier for the smaller guy who does not have as many customers after the same corals.
Point 8 This is again a sales person issue for the larger wholesalers, the good sales people do this and are quite good at it. The bad sales guys, well they are bad at it. The smaller operations where it is generally the owner doing the selling or the owner and just one sales guy are in a better position to be able to do this.
Point 9 Well most everyone nowdays has something that is unique to their operation. That is why when I had retail stores I bought from a bunch of different wholesalers. Each of them are generally better at something than the other guys. If you limit your self to one supplier you will miss out on some items.
To me it looks like most of wonderreefs issues are with the size of the wholesaler. The points that he brought up are dealt with much better by a small operation and personal service. Most of the small guys want to grow but with growth will come the issues that wonderreef does not like. This brings us around again to the high service / big box supply chain. This is interesting stuff, I think that things are in flux and we are in for some fundamental changes.
Dave
Not really my original intention of going tit for tat on each item of how you choose to run your business, there are obviously things a small guy can do better/different than a big guy as wholesalers go. The general theme is that there is this mentality that this the way it is with a big wholesaler and that is that take it or leave and skip over point number one because by god I am going to sell to your customer if I want. If we review my original post that started this thread I am pissed off that you are selling to my customers and I will not support it and I want to know who else is doing the same. So far I have no constructive responses about that because either other wholsalers are not doing it or no one is comfortable with dropping a dime so to speak. So everyone go on doing whatever you have been doing because that is just the way it is done. Dave, you have a controlling interst in a business that competes with me for my customers, you can not or will not divest yourself from that commitment, my buying anything from any company you have a financial interst in only puts more in your pocket to help fund my ultimate destruction. Here's how I see it: You have a controlling interst in a business that competes with me, you being an intelligent competent business man wants that business to succede, as that business succeds it takes customers from me--if they buy from you they are not buying with the same dollars from me by definition, therefore you daily are trying to put me out of business, this then harms your wholesale business because as more retailers go under due to to your success with your retail venture you have less wholesale customers--besides the ones like me that in the meantime decide to not buy whloesale from you, then you step up the retail direct business to gain back the lost income, and there you have the full circle as I see it. This is the heart of the matter!! Sorry for my whining, you can now say---well just buy from someone else and brush me off, forgetting I was a loyal regular customer of yours for a long time and I want to continue being a customer of yours, but not by shaking your hand with my right hand and twisting the knife in my back with my left hand!!!!
I was not commenting on your points to go tit for tat with you, I posted to further discussion on the points of what you find important in a wholesaler and if those points are better met by a small operation or a large one.
I certainly did not skip point 1 to blow you off, I skipped it because it has been pretty well covered in the previous 3 pages of this post and I figured that it was well understood where you stand on the issue. I would have been just repeating myself to say more about it. We have discussed it. The other points I did not think had been fully explored.
Dave
I certainly did not skip point 1 to blow you off, I skipped it because it has been pretty well covered in the previous 3 pages of this post and I figured that it was well understood where you stand on the issue. I would have been just repeating myself to say more about it. We have discussed it. The other points I did not think had been fully explored.
Dave
Some of the reason that you are not getting much response about other wholesalers is that we are so interconnected with product supply and buying and selling from each other that you could trace retail sales, drop shipping to retail customers, retail sales out of the warehouse, or etail sales to every wholesaler in Los Angeles. It is just the degree of what is visable that is in question. I have not tried to hide what I do.
Dave
Dave
I said many times I have no issue with etail vs B & M. I am not a collector, importer, wholesaler so how do I "join 'em" or "out compete" them? That can only be through service and that only goes so far. So are you good with your suppliers selling direct to your customers?
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Interesting caveat there.
If the retailer can buy direct from a wholesalers suppliers.......and they do every day, why cannot that wholesaler sell direct to that retailers customers?
I'm not saying they should...but it seems duplicitious to expect a higher behavior from one when you would not do it yourself.
If everyone is a chess piece with certain, definable moves and rules....what are they? Who wrote em?
A retailer is like a queen. He can buy direct from a wholesalers supplier and sell to the public.
A wholesale however must respect and obey the maxim that said reatilers public customers are off limits....
In fact, said retailer gets upset if his bread and butter gets "poached" as he "poaches" anothers bread and butter.
"I'm just sayin..."
Steve
Thats the attitude that makes this a wonderful industry, "business is business", "all is fair", and "every man for himself", "too bad". So, for sure I know PAF and QM share this business philosophy completely, any others you know of for sure. Yep Steve, "business is business", give no loyalty and expect none. I know, don't laugh too hard, I said long ago in this thread I am naive or maybe just nostalgic. Personally, I have not bypassed the system with PAF, I did not import/tranship any items that they regularly stock--told them this over the years--told them I would support them as long as they helped me honestly supply my customers and in return they said to me screw you. Yep, "business is business".
Wonderreef, I don't think that last statement is entirely true. You tran shipped bread and butter items directly from me in the past thus bypassing PAF. Australia corals and I believe some Tonga cultured corals have also been tran shipped by you direct from L.A. Importers (some my suppliers). I think that you have blurred the lines of distribution yourself.
Dave
Dave
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
As a wholesaler, I deal with retailers all the time who default to me only if they cannot get it direct or semi direct,
There is a sense of entitlement and privelege that holds that since the internet enables easy access to everything then they are certainly free to avail themselves of it. This " business is business attitude" mindset is extremely common among retailers now and only allows us to make sales on the most risky or hard to get items.
The most obvious of all of this trend is the ...."Go ahead, risk and buy a few thousand dollars of corals so I can skim the best 4-5 off the top for the normal price so I can go frag the hell out of it and/or sell it at a premium."
They know that it takes 10 corals to make a cherry ...and if you ask," Hey what about the other 9?"
"Oh, I only do cherries. Im eclectic, I'm special, I'm better then the rest."
On the way out they often say something w/ a mind-boggling lack of tact like this; "Hey if ever you get in any more impossible to obtain, underpriced one of a kind ones, give me a call.'
"Wow... what talent..."I think.
"Its a privelege to er...serve you."
There is a sense of entitlement and privelege that holds that since the internet enables easy access to everything then they are certainly free to avail themselves of it. This " business is business attitude" mindset is extremely common among retailers now and only allows us to make sales on the most risky or hard to get items.
The most obvious of all of this trend is the ...."Go ahead, risk and buy a few thousand dollars of corals so I can skim the best 4-5 off the top for the normal price so I can go frag the hell out of it and/or sell it at a premium."
They know that it takes 10 corals to make a cherry ...and if you ask," Hey what about the other 9?"
"Oh, I only do cherries. Im eclectic, I'm special, I'm better then the rest."
On the way out they often say something w/ a mind-boggling lack of tact like this; "Hey if ever you get in any more impossible to obtain, underpriced one of a kind ones, give me a call.'
"Wow... what talent..."I think.
"Its a privelege to er...serve you."
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Re-wording a bit of the original post.....[ bold italics] ....it still makes sense.
So whos the bad guy here?
During these slower ecomonic times every retailer and wholesaler I know are struggling to be profitable. Everyone is doing whatever it takes to stay above water. We all must make certain decisions and I have chosen to not support retailers that buy direct from my suppliers, at least the ones I know are doing it. While some are more creative in hiding this activity, others are quite blatant and seem to be saying to bad we are doing whatever we want and if you don't like it tough
So whos the bad guy here?
During these slower ecomonic times every retailer and wholesaler I know are struggling to be profitable. Everyone is doing whatever it takes to stay above water. We all must make certain decisions and I have chosen to not support retailers that buy direct from my suppliers, at least the ones I know are doing it. While some are more creative in hiding this activity, others are quite blatant and seem to be saying to bad we are doing whatever we want and if you don't like it tough
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
I'm not making a complaint that suppliers are mis-behaving here. I'm pointing out that if everyone misbehaves you have to re-define mis-behaving.
I was juxtaposing a "turn about is fair play" re-wording to the initial post here.
The market has gone to the dogs and I am just observing the irony in one side calling the kettle black. In the everything is fair and justified in love and war notions being acted upon...what chance for reason is there?
I was juxtaposing a "turn about is fair play" re-wording to the initial post here.
The market has gone to the dogs and I am just observing the irony in one side calling the kettle black. In the everything is fair and justified in love and war notions being acted upon...what chance for reason is there?
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