120gal Tank Update Now with sand :D
- Thread starter jackson6745
- Start date
I think you need at least 2-3 inchs of sand to support the nitrifiying bacteria and the process.
like shaun said anything under 2" is just for decoration. this is what I wanted when I put the ESV in my tank. I'm doing the steve weast method of using sand just for the looks. I got enough sand critters to help keep the bottom clean and I help them out by stirring a section of the sand each week. the sand I have is small grained, but it's corse so it does not get packed together like the southdown type would.
this is steve's method for his sand bed care,
Cleaning the sand:
I try to remove as much detritus from the system as possible before it can pollute the tank. My circulation system tends to blow detritus to the center canyon of the aquascaping (which is by design). It is then easily vacuumed up. I vacuum the sand at least once a week. The process is very quick and easy?.. I just slide the light hood out of the way and vacuum the entire sand area. This usually takes about two 5 gallon buckets to perform. I then let the vacuumed water, sand, detritus, and other waste settle for about ten minutes in the bucket before I decant the water back into the overflow. Some waste gets back into the system; but, 90% or more of the waste gets totally removed.
This method allows me to vacuum the sand even if I don?t have replacement water available. The vacuumed sand, along with the waste, is then discarded. As the sand gets too thin in the main display tank, new sand is added. It takes about three months of sand vacuuming to completely replace all the sand.
taken from www.oregonreef.com
like shaun said anything under 2" is just for decoration. this is what I wanted when I put the ESV in my tank. I'm doing the steve weast method of using sand just for the looks. I got enough sand critters to help keep the bottom clean and I help them out by stirring a section of the sand each week. the sand I have is small grained, but it's corse so it does not get packed together like the southdown type would.
this is steve's method for his sand bed care,
Cleaning the sand:
I try to remove as much detritus from the system as possible before it can pollute the tank. My circulation system tends to blow detritus to the center canyon of the aquascaping (which is by design). It is then easily vacuumed up. I vacuum the sand at least once a week. The process is very quick and easy?.. I just slide the light hood out of the way and vacuum the entire sand area. This usually takes about two 5 gallon buckets to perform. I then let the vacuumed water, sand, detritus, and other waste settle for about ten minutes in the bucket before I decant the water back into the overflow. Some waste gets back into the system; but, 90% or more of the waste gets totally removed.
This method allows me to vacuum the sand even if I don?t have replacement water available. The vacuumed sand, along with the waste, is then discarded. As the sand gets too thin in the main display tank, new sand is added. It takes about three months of sand vacuuming to completely replace all the sand.
taken from www.oregonreef.com
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I'm not so sure about that. How can a SSB not host nitrifying bacteria? I can even see cyanobacteria growing on it 
A freakin plastic bioball holds bacteria and SSB does have more surface area. I don't understand the logic or factual proof, if there is any.
A freakin plastic bioball holds bacteria and SSB does have more surface area. I don't understand the logic or factual proof, if there is any.I'm confused by what you want the sand to do.
To properly break down waste the sand needs to be a depth of 2-3"
I recall that the Nitrifiying process begins at under 1.5" of sand.
Shaun had posted some studies a while back about this when he was researching the BB vs. DSB thing.
Yes there will be bacteria growing on the sand, but as far as reducing waste I do not think 1" of sand is going to to do anything. If anything it will cause the No3 to rise if the waste is not removed. 1" of sand makes an efficiant poop trap.
Are you going to keep cleaning the tank as a BB or leave the detritus in the tank?
I'd have to do some searching to find the articles shaun linked.
To properly break down waste the sand needs to be a depth of 2-3"
I recall that the Nitrifiying process begins at under 1.5" of sand.
Shaun had posted some studies a while back about this when he was researching the BB vs. DSB thing.
Yes there will be bacteria growing on the sand, but as far as reducing waste I do not think 1" of sand is going to to do anything. If anything it will cause the No3 to rise if the waste is not removed. 1" of sand makes an efficiant poop trap.
Are you going to keep cleaning the tank as a BB or leave the detritus in the tank?
I'd have to do some searching to find the articles shaun linked.
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It was not even on MR, I had to search RC to find one of the threads I remembered.
This link jumps to the second page of the thread, kind of neat. Bomber, steave w, and shaun are discussing the SSB pros and cons. The link to the
article shaun credits is broken, but you can look up the study under,
Effects of Benthic Flux on Short Term Variations of Nutrients
in Aburatsubo Bay
KAZUFUMI TAKAYANAGI* and HISASHI YAMADA**
SSB thread on RC
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=561236&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
This link jumps to the second page of the thread, kind of neat. Bomber, steave w, and shaun are discussing the SSB pros and cons. The link to the
article shaun credits is broken, but you can look up the study under,
Effects of Benthic Flux on Short Term Variations of Nutrients
in Aburatsubo Bay
KAZUFUMI TAKAYANAGI* and HISASHI YAMADA**
SSB thread on RC
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=561236&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
OK, I was not talking about breaking down NO3, simply converting ammonia and nitrite into nitrate. Spykes and I were thinking one night (rare thing ) and we came up with the conclusion that with my high fishload and little amount of rock, I may have been getting small nitrite spikes causing my tank problems??? This was only a guess and we have no real proof. I consider a nitrite testkit useless since it cannot detect very small amounts of nitrite.
Anyway, I never really maintained my BB tank as most other guys do. IMO I feel that a BB tank with a big skimmer requires less maintence than a sand bed tank. I never siphion out detritus, feed the tank a lot, have over 20 fish, and my PO4 is .01 on a Hanna meter and nitrate is 1ppm on a salifert testkit. If I maintained my old 65 DSB tank like this, my nitrates and phosphates would have been through the roof!.
Thanks for the link. Checking it out now.
) and we came up with the conclusion that with my high fishload and little amount of rock, I may have been getting small nitrite spikes causing my tank problems??? This was only a guess and we have no real proof. I consider a nitrite testkit useless since it cannot detect very small amounts of nitrite.Anyway, I never really maintained my BB tank as most other guys do. IMO I feel that a BB tank with a big skimmer requires less maintence than a sand bed tank. I never siphion out detritus, feed the tank a lot, have over 20 fish, and my PO4 is .01 on a Hanna meter and nitrate is 1ppm on a salifert testkit. If I maintained my old 65 DSB tank like this, my nitrates and phosphates would have been through the roof!.
Thanks for the link. Checking it out now.
that thread changes course and starts discussing gfo's...not the one I was thinking about.
you never siphoned your BB, or you just occasionally cleaned the bottom?
I can't imagine you have any crap shedding off your rocks, so maybe the little amount of poop was getting to the skimmer via the tunzes?
you never siphoned your BB, or you just occasionally cleaned the bottom?
I can't imagine you have any crap shedding off your rocks, so maybe the little amount of poop was getting to the skimmer via the tunzes?
I used to take the tunze from the holder and blow the bottom every once in a while. I guess the in tank flow carried the detritus to the micron bags and skimmer.That little amount of detritus you see in a BB tank is noting compared to what is hidden in a DSB. Even when I don't blow the bottom in over a month, the water quality still remained pristine
I know, this is why I am going to keep the SSB clean. It can accumulate the same amount of crap.
as you originally asked the SSB can then be seen as more surface area for bacteria to grow. it just won't be lowering your No3 anytime soon.
that's where I got confused with what you wanted to do. I'll say again I think if you go this route you should try to set up a remote DSB for denitrifying purposes. maybe plumb it into your chiller return?
as you originally asked the SSB can then be seen as more surface area for bacteria to grow. it just won't be lowering your No3 anytime soon.
that's where I got confused with what you wanted to do. I'll say again I think if you go this route you should try to set up a remote DSB for denitrifying purposes. maybe plumb it into your chiller return?
Rich a SSB will host nitrifying bacteria, just alot less than a DSB of 3-5 inches (4 inches). Your tank has a specific nitrate/phosphate production that is mostly set depending on your feeding schedule/bioload. Therefore, in general a SSB, due to its limited size of nitrifying bacteria it can hold (you need an anaerobic environmnent), will perform the job in a limited manner and for less time. The SSB will be overworked, and like all overworked systems, it will not be able to live up to the task overtime.I'm not so sure about that. How can a SSB not host nitrifying bacteria? I can even see cyanobacteria growing on it
Jon, here is the article that you were looking for.
Back 1.5 years ago I was studying whether a SSB would work well in a reef tank. I am still not completely sure, :lol: . But definately for nitrate removal it would not be a good choice.
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum...os-done-4.html?highlight=Effects+Benthic+Flux
Rich, recently I disconnected my huge Ca reactor. It had about 10lb of media in it. Right after I brought it off line different NEW algae started appearing in my tank. The only explaination that I can figure out is that my Ca reactor was acting as an external DSB!! It make sense if you think about it, CO2 concentration is high, O2 concentration would be low, pH 7, low flow through they chambers. Perfect conditions for anaerobic processes.
Back 1.5 years ago I was studying whether a SSB would work well in a reef tank. I am still not completely sure, :lol: . But definately for nitrate removal it would not be a good choice.
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum...os-done-4.html?highlight=Effects+Benthic+Flux
Rich, recently I disconnected my huge Ca reactor. It had about 10lb of media in it. Right after I brought it off line different NEW algae started appearing in my tank. The only explaination that I can figure out is that my Ca reactor was acting as an external DSB!! It make sense if you think about it, CO2 concentration is high, O2 concentration would be low, pH 7, low flow through they chambers. Perfect conditions for anaerobic processes.
Shaun, that's pretty interesting a remote DSB/CA reactor.
I'm guessing your tank has, or will find it's new balance with
the CA reactor gone.
As for a SSB working in a reef tank I'm taking my inspiration from Steve W. I know he does an incredible amount of work maintaining his tank just for the look of sand. If his tank can be any indication then I say it can work. I'll quote him again because he says it so well;
To achieve the high water quality requirement, this system is set up along the thinking of a bare bottom philosophy?. namely, the removal, rather than the processing, of wastes. That means high flow, strong skimming, and a maintenance regiment that focuses on the removal of waste and detritus. The only modification to the bare bottom philosophy is the addition of a small amount of sand. Since I subscribe to the bare bottom philosophy, but hate the look of a bare bottom display, I added a thin layer (around 1 ? 2 inches) of sand to the visible portions of the reef only. Yes, this means more maintenance (see maintenance section); but, the visual rewards are worth it.
in my case I did not mind the look of the original BB, I just could not stand the look of the BB after I took apart my tank and lost half the coral.
I'm guessing your tank has, or will find it's new balance with
the CA reactor gone.
As for a SSB working in a reef tank I'm taking my inspiration from Steve W. I know he does an incredible amount of work maintaining his tank just for the look of sand. If his tank can be any indication then I say it can work. I'll quote him again because he says it so well;
To achieve the high water quality requirement, this system is set up along the thinking of a bare bottom philosophy?. namely, the removal, rather than the processing, of wastes. That means high flow, strong skimming, and a maintenance regiment that focuses on the removal of waste and detritus. The only modification to the bare bottom philosophy is the addition of a small amount of sand. Since I subscribe to the bare bottom philosophy, but hate the look of a bare bottom display, I added a thin layer (around 1 ? 2 inches) of sand to the visible portions of the reef only. Yes, this means more maintenance (see maintenance section); but, the visual rewards are worth it.
in my case I did not mind the look of the original BB, I just could not stand the look of the BB after I took apart my tank and lost half the coral.
- Location
- Flushing NY 11355
imo, as for filtration, ssb is just like bio balls in a wet dry minus the aeration-it just a place for bacteria to decompose ammonia into nitrate. As long as there are other ways to denitrify the other "N" in the system, then it will be helpful, otherwise it will just add maintenance issue.
However, in the big picture, ssb provide, a home for many fish, inverts and nice natural looking, so it's still a plus in the system when you put it in the display.
As for DSB, I would put in remote manner so that no big diggers in my display can disturb it to the point it fouls my system. Also, when the time comes, I can remove the DSB easily.
However, in the big picture, ssb provide, a home for many fish, inverts and nice natural looking, so it's still a plus in the system when you put it in the display.
As for DSB, I would put in remote manner so that no big diggers in my display can disturb it to the point it fouls my system. Also, when the time comes, I can remove the DSB easily.
- Location
- Flushing NY 11355
Reasonable educated guess.
wingo this statement is wrong
the nitrifying process your referring to works in a deep sand bed because there are anaerobic bacteria living in the sand bed to convert the No3. In a shallow sand bed there are no anaerobic bacteria
living to allow this to happen.
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- Location
- New Rochelle
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