Zeovit System

[AlohaTropics]

I see your point Haut, I admit the Zeo System is not the economical way to go about a reef tank. I just don't think the costs are way out of proportion so that people are terrified of using the system. The two big points that a few people were making to neg Zeovit was that it had astronomical costs and ridiculous husbandry down to the point where you couldn't even go away for the weekend without coming back to a crashed system. I just feel that people are being unfair to the system and that a lot of talk gets exaggerated. Ultimately, Pohl developed a system that brings wonderful results. Results that pretty much come standard if you follow the system's guidelines. It does cost a bit more than running a traditional system. And you may have to dose maybe 2-3 more supplements that you normally wouldn't use. But thats really all the difference is. I just found it funny how people shun the system on unfounded exaggerations. I mean people are willing to still use Metal Halides which increase your electric bill by 30% and still pay for new bulbs every year. But then they say how crazy it is to spend and extra $200 a year on supplements. I'm glad you've switched over to LED's. I think everyone should, the savings over just 2 years pays for the system.

 

[cali_reef]

No hidden identity, I posted earlier that I'm the one that started the thread, just started a user for my business. I'll let you all know how I'm doing with it. In response to DCG, I know zeo is not super popular in the states and it's probably because of the higher cost through prolong use but there are thousands and thousands of users around the world. The same question is a double edged sword. If it wasn't a good system, how cone so many do use it and it's gotten so popular that it has a forum with thousands of users on it?

So these are all your work too?

The ideology behind Vodka dosing is introducing an organic carbon rather than an inorganic carbon such as activated carbon media. Organic carbon compounds will bond to phosphates, nitrates, and virtually all debris, as the carbon molecule is one of the most volatile bonding agents in chemistry (i'm not a chemist but this is what I read and witness in my tank). When you Vodka dose properly (look it up on these forums) you will see your protein skimmer produce 2-3 times the amount of skimmate it normally does. This is why you have to monitor your SPS for bleaching because the water clarity becomes so clear that light penetration increases.

There are definitely people much more qualified here that can give you a better answer but that as far as my reading has taken me.

As for Vodka dosing, I can't stress how much it has improved my tanks. My LFS had a pretty bad hair algae outbreak in its frag tank. There was huge growths of it everywhere. He had to remove everything. He tried algae blennies, crabs, slugs, nothing was getting rid of it fast enough. Finally, he tried vodka dosing and it completely cleared up within 2 weeks. Its great. I use Smirnoff triple distilled (80 proof).

 

[AlohaTropics]

Yes those are my posts. As you can see, I'm not just a Zeo pusher. I'm trying to find different and better ways to run a system. Preferably a Low Nutrient System. I found that Vodka stripped the water but wasn't a very controlled method. Many of us were following a dosing schedule that wasn't professionally developed in a lab. I know I was following the dosing schedule that was in reefkeeping. Vodka dosing is what got me into learning and investigating different LNS and Zeo happens to be where I am now. Even with the Vodka dosing, the natural colors of my corals where still subdues and many of my sps where still brown. The purpose of ZEOvit according to Korallen Zucht is to bring as close as possible the natural ocean environment for home aquariums. In that environment, corals are suppose to look like they naturally do. Some people don't think corals look like that in nature. Others agree that they do. We had this conversation a few pages back in the post. Anyway, after using Vodka for nearly a year, I'm now leaning towards Zeovit as a more complete low nutrient system.

Is there any thing else I have to explain about myself? I feel like everyone just loves to attack people on these threads instead of trying to have intelligent conversations and debates about things. Its like battle between reef gangs or something. And people need to stop pulling individual sentences from people's posts and attacking them because of it. You have to read entire threads to understand what is being said. Many times, if you just read 1 post, or 1 sentence, things can easily be misconstrued.

 

[sakura51707]

A Tale of Two Systems....

01/25/2005, 12:05 AM
Pucci
Registered Member

Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: California
Posts: 169
Am I the only one losing corals?
I have a 600gal system which 95% of my corals are SPS.
I have been using Zeo for the last 2 months, and it seems like every other day I find a bleached coral or frag in the tank.(I am almost sure it is related with zeo)
I have to say that through the years I have survived many outbreaks from acro flat worms, monti nudis, red bugs, mohanos, aiptasias etc.and always managed to almost eliminate completely out of my system. No magic here just being persistent.
Anyway I have heard nothing but good thing from hobbyist that use Zeo.
Am I the only one losing corals?
What's with the dosage of this product that an extra drop will bleach corals?
And what's up with my coralline? Now my rocks are covered with a brown algae, which is not too attractive.
I like that I don't have to clean the center brace on the tank, and that I don't get the calcium build up that I use to.
I'm not trying to put down this product, just trying to understand a little better.
Am I alone here?
TIA
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01/25/2005, 08:46 AM
Cosmo^Kramer
Hipster dufuss

Join Date: May 2002
Location: Westchester,NY
Posts: 1,344
I have increasing growth of macro growth and have lost a few frags.I'm into week 9 and haven't noticed any improvements since week 3.I removed the rocks and put phosban and purigen in my reactor to get the macros under control.The frags i've lost are hard to get and expensive,purple monster for one.I can't totally dismiss ZEO because i've seen some good results.But i have to get this macro under control.I reaaly want to know whats in this stuff too
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Check out other stories similar to the two mentioned above on this thread: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513631&highlight=zeovit

It's stated purpose is to jumpstart the consumption of PO4. IMO, ou are much better off letting the bacteria do that by growing out at a normal rate. Rapid changes in nutrients is what I think caused the losses people have observed. Just my $0.02

As for budget differences...Here's just the breakdown of someone just using the basic components of the Zeovit System:

With PHOSBAN, you NEED a reactor. With ZEOVIT you NEED a reactor.
With PHOSBAN, you REPLACE the media every 4 to 6 weeks.
With ZEOVIT, you REPLACE the media every 6 to 12 weeks.
With PHOSBAN, you set it an forget it.
With ZEOVIT, you shake the rocks daily and drop in the bacteria and food 2x per week.

Phosban costs $20 every 4 to 6 weeks.
Zeovit rocks costs $20 every 6 to 12 weeks PLUS the NEED to purchase NEW bacteria every 3 to 4 months at $20 each.
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[AlohaTropics]

Wow, your really going through a lot of trouble just to try to persuade me that Zeo's no good. Again, not sure why people act like this on these forums. I guess ZEOvit is just a very elaborate scam.

Your 2 stories, I'm not sure what your trying to prove. These people obviously were having problems. Were they dosing correctly? Did they have the proper gph flow through the zeolites? I mean, there are a host of questions that need to be addressed so again, I'm not sure what these two stories are suppose to prove. Not sure why you feel the need to prove anything at all. I simply started this thread if you read the first post, to let some people know what I intend to do, and asked some people who have used the system before for some help. Then this flood of hatred comes pouring through with a few people hating zeovit. Am I suppose to find 2 people now that have issues with regular systems and post them? Anyway, I'm not sure what your two stories are suppose to show. I'd rather post the thousands of successful zeovit tanks around the world on here.

If you think the zeovit reactor is just a replacement for a phos reactor then I think your missing something in the middle somewhere. The zeolites are a mixture of a few different type of zeolites that have multiple absorption properties. The bacteria that is cultured is a different bacteria that is not found a traditional system. Like I said, its a totally different system. Thats why its harmful to introduce live sand, the bacterias don't play well. The bacteria combined with the zeolite rocks somehow create a nutritious supplement called "mulm" for the corals and when released into the water column, corals have been shown to increase polyp extension. Its clear there is something thats not being disclosed with the process but its also clear that there is something going on that much more than just replacing your phos reactor.

If you so pent on trying to trash Zeovit, go have a ball and start a Zeovit Sucks Thread. If it works out for me, I'll know what your missing out on. If it doesn't, I'll say hey, I'm not sure how all of those people have such nice Zeovit systems, but I'm just not getting those results. See you in 4 weeks.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

If you so pent on trying to trash Zeovit, go have a ball and start a Zeovit Sucks Thread.

We try not to do that here what we try to do is give our experiences with products honestly. So as you are going through your dosing regime please post your parameters and your experiences.

 

[AlohaTropics]

BTW, I hear that transitioning a regular tank into the ZEOvit system is where lots of problems can occur. The sudden change in bacteria environment can cause tanks to do things if the transition is not carefully done. I'm putting together a brand new system and it seems there aren't many issues when you follow the 14 day cycle plan KZ maps out for you.

Your examples are also from half a decade ago. If Zeovit is still around and rolling quite strong, then it would logically seem that people are succeeding right? If everyone had their tanks crash, I think they would be out of business by now.

Chief, I fully plan to document my travels, I just hope it brings me to a wonderful new world!

 

[DCG1286]

I just think the way we've been doing it is arduous and more issues come up because were always trying to tweak our systems with something else.

This is why people are arguing Zeovits ... I have seen enough non-Zeo tanks to say people have matched and out done the colors and growth of any zeovit tank.

Plus to say it was cheaper and not time consuming (not dosing everyday etc.etc.) ... sales reps over on that Zeo forum will say anything for you to buy their product. It's an expensive investment and risky one to run this system ... plain and simple ... you are lucky that you are starting from scratch ... best of luck with this tank.

 

[AlohaTropics]

I promise I'll be honest with my opinion after I run this system for at least 6 months. I'm not doing this because I'm saying that I run into a lot of problems now with my regular tank. I'm just very interested to find what works the best for me and the elimination of half of the filtration system that we all use really intrigues me.

 

[DCG1286]

I promise I'll be honest with my opinion after I run this system for at least 6 months. I'm not doing this because I'm saying that I run into a lot of problems now with my regular tank. I'm just very interested to find what works the best for me and the elimination of half of the filtration system that we all use really intrigues me.

BTW ... did you stick with your original plans as to what you are using? Equipment ... dosing ... etc.etc. Update would be great!

 

[sakura51707]

Your 2 stories, I'm not sure what your trying to prove. These people obviously were having problems. Were they dosing correctly? Did they have the proper gph flow through the zeolites?

If you so pent on trying to trash Zeovit, go have a ball and start a Zeovit Sucks Thread. If it works out for me, I'll know what your missing out on. If it doesn't, I'll say hey, I'm not sure how all of those people have such nice Zeovit systems, but I'm just not getting those results. See you in 4 weeks.

1-How do you explain the abundance of healthy corals on reefs that have major phosphate shifts on a near daily basis from tidal changes? The florida keys are a prime example. Outgoing tides drain phosphate rich water from the bay onto the reef which stays there until the next incoming tide which
brings in very low nutrient water out of the gulf stream.

2-From what I have read, there is no "correct" amount to the supplements. The amount you dose is based on visual observations. In plain english, you judge how much to put into the tank based on the growth and color you see with your eyes. No tests, no meters....NOTHING!!

3-I am NOT trying to dissuade you from using the Zeovit system. It is YOUR tank NOT mine. I am simply using facts, other people's experiences, to prove MY opinion. God speed!
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[ShaunW]

Zeovit artificially changes the inorganic Redfield ratio (by adding carbon and nitrogen to remove inorganic P via growth). It also changes the organic ratio by adding specific nitrate and nitrite scavenging bacteria to counteract any imbalances initially present when starting to manupalate the ratio.

When you do such a thing, and if the ratio is already established, and the life within the aquarium are already accustomed to a specific ratio set before using zeovit then trouble will happen. This is why you do things slowly to reset the ratio. It is also why the SPS of zeovit systems look more pastel, since the zoox are probably at a lower density due to less being needed (inorganic ratio is more adapted to coral grow and nullifies the symbiotic relationship somewhat).

Playing devils advocate, there are many ways to manipulate the ratio without using zeovit, but you need to understand good husbandry. Zeovit makes it cut and dry, cookbook like.

 

[ShaunW]

I always seem to go back to my original posts present here:
http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/advanced-reefs/17828-coloring-up-sps-8.html

 

[AlohaTropics]

Well, the space that I have refinished for this system will be ready on Friday, which is just in time because all of my tanks from Glass Cages are coming in White Plains on Sunday...anyone wanna help me move 5 tanks?

The Equipment is all ready to go. BK Supermarine 300 skimmer, KZ 6L Zeo Mag Reactor, Next Reef MR1 Dual Carbon Reactor (I got one just cause I'm not a fan of a bag of carbon thrown into the sump), Korallin 3002 CaCO2 reactor. I'm going to start dosing the basic recommended startup elements which are Zeofood, Zeobak, Zeostart2, and Sponge Power (a new food that has shown to help develop and culture the new Zeovit bacteria). After about 2-4 weeks, I will start to put in livestock. The supplements that I've already prepared for after that are:

Iron Concentrate
Pohl's Coral Vitalizer
Pohl's B-Balance
Coral Snow
Iodide/Fluoride
Amino Acid
Zeospur

Of course none of these are non essential but I will see what effects each one has on my tank. Just in comparison, I'm currently dosing in my regular tank BW Reef Code A, BW Reef Code B, Lugols, BW Coral Amino, BW Koral Color, Vodka, Phyto. So the dosing doesn't really seem that much worse IMO.

I'll keep my parameters posted but I'm going to start a new thread. I think I'll keep this one to the heated debate here.

 

[AlohaTropics]

Thank You Shaun! That was the best post yet in this thread. That the kind of information and help I was asking for.



Anyway, thanks for the info Shaun. At least we now have a better understanding of the chemistry in whats going on. And it's like I said before. Many people have jumped their systems into Zeovit and had crashes and then have negative things to say. Everyone at the zeovit forums say that switching your system must be done very cautiously. Perhaps this is the reason why everyone else is saying that the systems must be constantly monitored and you can't leave it for a second. Hopefully, I won't go through this as I am setting up a brand new system with the 14 day intial cycle.

 

[AlohaTropics]

Kudos for Shaun for bringing in the Redfield Ratio. Sakura I hope this answers your question about the changing of environments:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Redfield ratio or Redfield stoichiometry is the molecular ratio of carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus in phytoplankton. The stoichiometric ratio is C:N = 106:16:1. The term is named after the American oceanographer Alfred C. Redfield, who first described the ratio in an article in 1934 (Redfield 1934). In 1934 Alfred Redfield analysed thousands of samples of marine biomass from all ocean regions. He found that globally the elemental composition of marine organic matter (dead and living) was remarkably constant. The ratios of carbon to nitrogen to phophorus remained the same from coastal to open ocean regions. The elemental ratios he found were:
C:N=106:16:1. This is known collectively as the Redfield-Richards Ratio.

So because this ratio should always be kept constant whether in the ocean, in our traditionally ran aquariums or in a ZEOvit system, its the change of this ratio that you put your tank under when converting to the ZEO system that causes tank crashes. Am I correct to conclude this Shaun?

And your #2. How do you measure the level of amino acids in your tank? Phyto Plankton? These additives are supplements. I'm not talking about core essentials like calcium. These supplements have varying levels because it depends on your individual bio stock and what they need. For example, iron tends to bring the green out of the green sps. If you have lots and lots of Green SPS, I'm sure you will be dosing more KZ Iron than someone that has no Green SPS. That is why its eyeballed. Its all based on how your livestock consume and use the supplements. Its not based on "NOTHING"...

Remember, the Zeovit system aims at reducing everything to very low levels and its up to us to reintroduce what elements our individual systems require. This means that depending on what you stock, your system will deplete certain supplements more than others. I'm sure there is a "basic dosing amount" for each supplement but you are able to reduce and increase in direct observation to your tank.

 

[AlohaTropics]

You know Sakura, if you read the beginning again, this thread was simply put together by me so I could have a few answers given about the system I already intended on running. People want to jump in an start to tell me that I should go brightwell, the cost is astronomical, the husbandry is too great. I appreciate the warnings but I clearly have stated my intentions and how I can see around those dangers. I don't know how this thread became a big argument with should I or should I not do it? Those initial questions I had were legitimate concerns that I wanted help with, thats all. And then I planned on posting results from the system every week. Thats all. I think everything got a little sour when that user Kris started posting some negative comments and then started getting sarcastic. I'm thinking, is it really that bad of me to have posted what equipment I bought? Does that really offend some of you? I don't get it.

 

[sakura51707]

Not offended. Just a hobby. Was just stating MY opinion on the system like everyone else and providing reasons why I personally would never use it.
Congratulations and best of luck.

 

[DCG1286]

Zeovit artificially changes the inorganic Redfield ratio (by adding carbon and nitrogen to remove inorganic P via growth). It also changes the organic ratio by adding specific nitrate and nitrite scavenging bacteria to counteract any imbalances initially present when starting to manupalate the ratio.

When you do such a thing, and if the ratio is already established, and the life within the aquarium are already accustomed to a specific ratio set before using zeovit then trouble will happen. This is why you do things slowly to reset the ratio. It is also why the SPS of zeovit systems look more pastel, since the zoox are probably at a lower density due to less being needed (inorganic ratio is more adapted to coral grow and nullifies the symbiotic relationship somewhat).

Playing devils advocate, there are many ways to manipulate the ratio without using zeovit, but you need to understand good husbandry. Zeovit makes it cut and dry, cookbook like.

This is why alot of people are going to disagree with you on this topic ... the zeo's system is a quick fix ... Zeo's = anabolic steroids.

In all honesty the earlier posts showed disrespect to other members and their opinions to the point of being violent. Not trying to open any old wounds ... but this thread is NOTHING compared to the savages on Reef Central.

Just my observations.

Post lots of pics of your tank please!!!

 

[DHaut]

This has been my favorite MR thread. So much passion around a fish tank, lol. It's great stuff.

Aloha, best of luck with your tank. Next time I'm on a cruise I'll take pics of the old people in their swimsuits and we'll see how the colors compare to your corals

Seriously though, let us know how it turns out.