A Response to Zeovit "Pastels"

[DCG1286]

Oh yeah, and contrary to popular belief, if I miss a day here or there, my tank will not crash. The nutrients may rise alittle but it will go down again.

Too early in your system to truly determine that ... As it progresses we shall see.

Still from the sound of it ... you are more of a slave to your system then most of us are ...

Definitely an interesting read from your first posts until now ...

 

[AlohaTropics]

Yeah, its been a great learning experience. I think the daily dosing of bak and start2 can get tedious, unless your used to vodka dosing or for those who run daily 2 part calc & buffer. I know many people try to automate as much as possible. The real results will be around January which will be about 6 months into the system. I'm pretty sure my schedule will be much more intense because I plan on really trying to grasp all of the zeo products and do a lot of testing/results on coral health and appearance.

I think I'm going to start posting in the other thread again, this one was really just sharing some info I learned about the zeovit colors. I know some pics are long overdue, too! I'll try to put some up after the holiday weekend.

 

[rafal07013]

I am kind confused by some of the responses on this topic.

DCG - what is your maitnance schedule and are you dosing anything? calcium reactor? kalk reactor? what do you check for?

I have spend the last 4 months following different methods - brightwell, neo zeo, balling method, balling light etc, etc, etc and with proper equipment and proper set up you can trully make your life and tank maitnance - SIMPLE.

it doesnt mean that everyone has to do it, it is personal choice. some people like vanila ice cream, some like choclate. it is persoanl preference. zeo, brightwell, fuge, etc - personal choice.

I do agree with Felix that there is a lot of skepticism to european methods of running tanks and equipment choice and their success with it. simple example: controller - I have decided to go with Profilux simply because none of the controllers made in usa have the capibilites and equipment that comes with it. it doesnt mean that other may not find Elite or Apex more than good enough for their systems. I am almost sure that a lof of readers will say that they are very happy with Elite or Apex - but I personally was looking for more.

As far as zeo - I find this topic kind of interesting because I know for the fact that some vendors on MR are using this method in their tanks and some of you who offer a lot of skepticisim in this thread go "ga ga" over corals from vendors who are using zeo method and no complains there. I just find this very interesting.

 

[AlohaTropics]

Lol, hey buddy. Are you calling out some of the "closet zeo vendors" who like coloring up their products? I'm sure no one does that

 

[SevTT]

The Zeobak is added daily because when you dose Zeostart2 (the actual carbon source that is dosed to help keep the tank at ultra low nutrient conditions) cyanobacteria and certain algae will constantly compete with the zeo bacteria in colonization. Once your zeobacteria is established, many have documented a decrease in dosing but you must still continue to dose because of the carbon dosing. You don't want cyano to win the battle. Also, because your zeolites are changed out once every 6-8 weeks, you need to recolonize your zeolite rocks with zeobacteria as well.

Well, you see, this just doesn't fit with the way that bacterial populations tend to work in culture. It's a racetrack condition. A couple of drops of bacterial concentrate per week will, by themselves, have no appreciable effect on the nutrient levels of the system unless they multiply and colonize the tank. However, as evinced by the need to dose them constantly, this is apparently not the case. Additionally, if they're being out-competed by cyanobacteria, they're certainly not going to help eliminate it unless dosed in massive enough quantities that they can out-compete the cyano for nutrients and/or colonized space based on sheer population pressure. The only way that this additive would have any effect would be if the bacteria were -more- competitive in the ULN conditions -- but, again, if this were the case, you wouldn't have to keep dosing them once they got a foothold, unless the nutrient levels were -so- low that the bacterial populations were constantly dying off -- but that makes no sense either.

It just doesn't pass the microbiological sniff test, without being able to lay hands on scientific data that shows it actually does have an affect.

Realize also, when you say the bacteria will colonize the rock, I only have 200lbs. of rock in my 600gallon system. By general rule, that is not enough rock. Also realize, that the chemisty is completely different. You no longer use denitrifying bacteria for breakdown of ammonia as the zeolite rocks aim at absorbing and containing ammonia itself.

The amount of bacteria in a couple of grams -- I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for their cell counts, and say an ounce -- of well-colonized, porous live rock exceed, by far, the amount of bacteria in a couple of drops of this additive.

I've also seen nothing to indicate that these bacteria are using different nutrient pathways than the usual nitrifying bacteria found in our tanks. In fact, I'd be extremely surprised to find out that Zeobac were anything but cultures of a few of the strains of nitrifying bacteria normally found in our tanks.

If the bacteria aren't utilizing ammonia and nitrites, what the hell are they doing? How are they adding anything to the system (besides a tiny sip of extra cells for our SPS to ingest?) What, exactly, are they using for nutrients? The zeobac food additive is, I'm assuming, a carbon source, like vodka dosing. Remember the building blocks of biological material -- Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen. (Plus a little bit of phosphorous and a few other things in trace amounts.) For nitrifying bacteria in our tank, the limiting factor on their metabolism is often free carbon -- thus, the added alcohol/sugar as a carbon source. Since the zeo bacteria food product obviously isn't a nitrogen or phosphorous source, and is just as obviously not a significant source of oxygen or hydrogen compared to the rest of the tank, it has to be a carbon source. Since I'm guessing that it doesn't smell like alcohol, it's probably some sort of sugar.

I'm not sure about the amino acids. I do know that there is distinctively different products called Zeofood7 and High Amino Acids for SPS and LPS. Pretty sure they're not the same product so I do wonder what you mean by labeling Amino Acids as Food.

Sorry, I should have been more specific there. That was per zeovitusa's description of "Amino Acid LPS" at http://www.zeovitusa.com/product.php?productid=16151&cat=250&page=1 -- there's similar looseness of terminology throughout the site. Now, while the terminology used on the site may have been created by their marketing droids, I distrust scientific looseness in something that sells itself by using applied micro and macrobiology.

Finally, the zeolite rocks are completely different than live rock.

I know, which is why I object to the price. Live rock is hard to ship, hard to store, and has to take time to colonize or cure if you're making it from scratch or pulling it straight out of the ocean -- zeolites are hucked up out of the ground and chucked in bags which may sit around with no special environmental conditions needed to preserve their qualities for years. (After all, they've already sat out a few million....)

The only reason the zeovit zeolites are so damned much is because no one's had a lab look at them and gone "okay, these are Type X zeolites, I can those for a quarter of the price a pool store!" In other words, their price is due only to the secrecy they can maintain about their sources and the exact makeup of their materials.

I agree, there is very much unknown factors in the zeo method. But through the zeovit forums and speaking directly to people like Albert at proline aquatics and Bob and Alexander on the forums, many zeo users that have successful tanks for years have a better in depth knowledge of the chemistry and what each product really does. I'm still learning myself, but with anything new, you sometimes have to put aside what you've learned already and just try to start with an open mind. I know the big controversy is the detailed ingredients to the products but thats how Thomas Pohl feeds his family. Even without the details put out, Brightwell has "copied" the method.

That's the problem I have with the zeo method; I can't find any scientific data on it. I can't find data on the bacterial strains used in supplementation, I can't find nutrient content and concentration of the additives, I can't find jack-squat but lots of anecdotes. For all I know I really could just replace all the zeo additives with water, and the bacterial food with a sugarwater solution, and have the same results. The only thing I'm fairly sure of as to effect is the zeolite material, since their ability to trap nitrogenous compounds while releasing light metals (usually Na or Ca, I'm guessing Ca, in this type of material) is well understood and documented.

Advances in our hobby come from advances in understanding, and in advances in science. With all of the black boxes involved, the Zeo system is more voodoo than science. I'm not saying that the Zeovit system doesn't generally work -- but any time you combine a profit motive with black-box science, you get a real temptation to start selling snake-oil. Since I can't find any proof to the contrary, I've gotta rely on my own, finely honed BS detector. Again, from what I can infer from the limited information available, it seems like you could duplicate the greatest part of the zeovit system through carbon dosing, not feeding much, and using Purigen or some other nitrogenous-compound scavenger. Or just more LR.

As it stands, though, I won't touch what I don't understand with a ten-foot pole, when it comes to adding it to my tank. And in this case, my lack of understanding is not endogenous, but because the information about the system that a company is selling to consumers is deliberately hidden.

 

[NYreefNoob]

< would love to know what vendors your reffering too also, using one or two products from a line isnt running a zeo system. that would be the same as saying i ran a brightwell system when i used bac7 and biofuel, they are only part of the items used in running a full brightwell system. aloha i give it to you for going through all of what you are in running that system. personally i achieved the same thing with vodka and amino's, my only down fall is i am not consistant enough in dosing { hence running a cal reactor this time } if you wasn't so far would love to come down and see the system

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

SevTT,

I remember ShaunW, a member here and a microbacterial scientist by trade has studied the ZEO system bacteria strain. May be you can ask him for more info. He may not be responding you quickly though as he just moved out of country and enjoying a very interesting married life.

 

[john90009]

I dont really dose anything in my tank- only thing that gets added into the tank is from the calcium reactor and fish food. To me i think thats perfict my corals have color, they have dark blues and dark purples and reds. My upscales microladus looks just as nice as those who dose tons of stuff in there tank. I have my reef tank to please me- as do many other hobbyists have theres, as dcg said dont be a slave to your tank, dont struggle to please your tank which might be the case when you turn into a hardcore doser. Enjoy the hobby dont let the hobby enjoy you.

 

[RGibson]

Well said john90009.

 

[recife]

Once you understand the science behind zeovit the reality is clear that it is nothing special. no different to any bacterial filtration.

The makers behind zeovit work on the bases that if they don't have any data on the labels it will make hobbyist think it is special compared to other products, reality is that the products contain standard ingriediants found in other products. Its all based on Perception. customers reality.

The Ultralith system by Fauna Marin actually states what is in the bottles so it will give you some idea what is in zeovit.


Zeolite- the zeovit zeolite is no different to the Tunze zeolite/ fauna marin zeolite . just like carbon form example, some work better than others.


For example

Ultra Bak- by FM, carbon source, similar to Zeofood

Contents:
Water, Calcium chloride, Magnesium sulfate, Potassium chloride, Ethylene acetate, Ethanol, Peptone, Tryptone, Histidine hydrochloride, D-Phenylalanine, L-Threonine, DL-Tryptonphane, DL-Valine, Thiamine chloride, Nicotinamide, Ribiflavine, Pridoxine hydrochloride, Cyanococobalamine, Sodiummethyl-4-hydroxybezoate, organic acids, trace elements.


Ultra -bio from FM, Similar to Zeo bak- which is bacteria,

UltraBio contains the marine nitrifying and denitrifying bacterial strains „Nitrosomas sp. Nitrobacter sp. Nitrospira sp. Paracoccus sp. Pseudomonas sp. and is highly concentrated


Zeobak would contain similar bacteria as these bacteria are found in our tanks and are used by water treatment plants to break down waste.


Pale colours on corals can happen with any filter system as it is a sign that the corals are starving due to the low nutrients

 

[AlohaTropics]

I'm not gonna argue your points, but there are some key points that show the system is not exactly as dosing nitrifying bacteria. For example, why does it crash the zeo system if you use things like live sand? Zeovit states that the bacteria is different that regular nitrifying bacteria and the use of live sand will seriously compromise the system. Also, Zeovit states that the Zeolite they use absorb and contain Ammonia thereby nullifying the nitrogen cycle in your tank. Dosing Nitrifying bacteria would be useless if this were true. Zeovit also with the stirring of the Zeolite rocks releases a food source for the corals, this is perplexing but if it is true, again, it does not fall into the mold of a regular system. I believe there is a much different chemistry going on in a Zeovit system that is definitely NOT disclosed. I for one do not blame Pohl for not wanting to disclose the "secret recipe". I'm not going to name any names but I for one know there are MANY who use Zeovit (the reactors are a dead give away) and do not say they do because all things aside, Zeovit does yield a more colorful livestock than normal systems do. Bonus for people who sell corals. Its easy for everyone to just make their opinions but have you checked out the zeovit.com forum? You don't even have to post anything, just read through the threads and its obvious there is a different chemistry going here that what we are commonly used to. I mean, the industry changes so much in a matter of years, is it really that unfathomable that there is more than 1 way to chemically create marine systems? I'm not a chemist or a marine biologist, but to think that the zeovit system is just dosing placebos is a little far fetched.

 

[AlohaTropics]

I don't know why it hasn't been done before but why not ask a couple of the really knowledgable scientists, chemists and microbiologists to disect the Zeovit system? Can't we just put Zeobak under a microscope and see the bacteria? I would love to be able to answer some of the questions that many have about Zeovit but the truth is, it is successful and thats how Pohl makes his living. Its like KFC, there are other fried chicken places out there (Brightwell's Neozeo, Prodibio, Fauna Marina) but theres only 1 secret recipe....mmmm...finger lickin good...:tongue1:

 

[DCG1286]

theres only 1 secret recipe....mmmm...finger lickin good...:tongue1:

Agreed ... so when we coming over to check out the tank? You better have some KFC waiting for us as well!

 

[SevTT]

I'm not gonna argue your points, but there are some key points that show the system is not exactly as dosing nitrifying bacteria. For example, why does it crash the zeo system if you use things like live sand?

Probably because densely-populated LS would starve and die in an ULNS environment, causing an ammonia spike.

Zeovit states that the bacteria is different that regular nitrifying bacteria and the use of live sand will seriously compromise the system. Also, Zeovit states that the Zeolite they use absorb and contain Ammonia thereby nullifying the nitrogen cycle in your tank.

Just because Zeovit says it doesn't make it true. Even if the zeolite absorbs ammonia, it isn't going to get all of it. You will have a healthy if lower-density population of nitrifying bacteria in your tank if you use the zeo system, because ammonia is still released into the system and available before it hits the zeolites.

Dosing Nitrifying bacteria would be useless if this were true.

Not true, as explained above. Additional filtration is always good.

Zeovit also with the stirring of the Zeolite rocks releases a food source for the corals, this is perplexing but if it is true, again, it does not fall into the mold of a regular system.

Stirring any filter media will generally release a whole crapload of detritus, which is full of bacterial colonies and films, exactly as Zeovit states. It'll also disturb pod populations and algae. My corals love it when I clean the intake filters on the return pump, 'cause it always stirs up a ton of this stuff.

I believe there is a much different chemistry going on in a Zeovit system that is definitely NOT disclosed. I for one do not blame Pohl for not wanting to disclose the "secret recipe".

If he did have a 'secret recipe' to success, it's scientifically and environmentally irresponsible for him not to disclose it. The fact that the process hasn't been patented indicates that it won't stand up to such scrutiny. I suspect that it hasn't been patented because it's already similar to every other ULNS + carbon dosing regimen. Either that, or he really does have a 'magic bullet' ingredient, but if that's a bacterial strain that can be patented too. I haven't been able to pull up any evidence that Zeovit's patented its bacterial strains or other products, or a general patent for the zeovit system, or anything similar.

The reason that it's irresponsible is because it doesn't let people examine and improve the system, here. It's pure profit motive, here, with no concern given to actually improving the state of husbandry worldwide, combined with a bit of voodoo thinking. (But what if he really does have a magic ingredient! I don't know! I better use his stuff instead of the competition's.) Neither science nor fair, free markets flourish in the presence of ignorance.

I'm not going to name any names but I for one know there are MANY who use Zeovit (the reactors are a dead give away) and do not say they do because all things aside, Zeovit does yield a more colorful livestock than normal systems do.

Have you seen any studies that shows that the zeovit system grows more colorful corals than a control, 'standard' ULNS system? No, you haven't, because they're not out there, or Zeovit would be directing people's attention to them.

Its easy for everyone to just make their opinions but have you checked out the zeovit.com forum? You don't even have to post anything, just read through the threads and its obvious there is a different chemistry going here that what we are commonly used to. I mean, the industry changes so much in a matter of years, is it really that unfathomable that there is more than 1 way to chemically create marine systems? I'm not a chemist or a marine biologist, but to think that the zeovit system is just dosing placebos is a little far fetched.

I'm not saying that Zeo's dosing placebos, I'm saying that it's basically just the exact same thing as other ULNS regimens, that it's nothing special, and that it overcharges you for not letting you know exactly what you're putting in your tank. Their main push should be "Look at our system, use our expensive but high-quality german-engineered ingredients!" not "Use our system, 'cause we're doing something that works and we're not gonna tell you exactly what we're doing, so if you want to do it right, you have to use our stuff."

While I'm not an accredited chemist or marine biologist, I've taken a decent load of college-level chemistry and biology courses, have done independent work in microbiology, in addition to absorbing a great deal of information on marine biology and reef-tank systems since I got into the hobby, and I know my stuff enough to call BS on something such as this, at this point. It just doesn't pass the sniff test.

...Actually, there was one good point on zeovit's form, that their bacterial food uses multiple carbon sources instead of just one, so it supports different bacterial populations which utilize the additional carbon sources differently, as opposed to selecting for, say, an ethanol-utilizing species. Once I get my skimmer up and running, I plan on carbon-dosing, and I may use their stuff as a carbon source if I can't find something comparable cheaper. Or I may just mix up some vinegar, ethanol, and isopropyl alcohol and add it to my kalkwasser drip.

 

[SevTT]

I don't know why it hasn't been done before but why not ask a couple of the really knowledgable scientists, chemists and microbiologists to disect the Zeovit system? Can't we just put Zeobak under a microscope and see the bacteria?

Mostly because it would be expensive to do so, and require job-runs at a qualified microbiology lab, and additional time figuring out what their additives are on a mass spectrometer.

It's very difficult to identify random bacterial strains. One coccus looks a lot like another. Either you have to run lots of cultures or you have to do genetic tests. Both methods are expensive and time-consuming. Similarly, in order to accurately identify the ingredients in their additives, you'd need access to an organic chemistry facility with mass spectrometers and all sorts of other expensive, specialized lab equipment that requires highly-trained people to use. Oh, and you'd need access to a geology/ceramics lab to figure out just what kinda zeolites are being used in the system. In short, it'd probably cost at least $50,000 in lab time and equipment to fully analyze the additives, and could cost much more.

Or Zeovit could patent their purportedly unique process (it -is- a process, and thus an algorythm, and thus patentable, if it's new and non-obvious,) let people know what's going on, and enjoy government-sponsored exclusivity to market their system for about -- what, 14 years now, while scientists go through their information and cry "****! I wish I thought of that!" and reefkeepers complain and whine about about the company but wind up using their stuff anyway.

In short, reverse engineering is expensive, peer review is free.

Actually, it'd be pretty easy to run some basic tests of the bacteria -- to prove they're affecting or driving the ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle, but I don't have the room or time or motivation. If someone else wanted to run a few experiments I could help with the methods.

 

[AlohaTropics]

Well, I will agree with some of the things you say. I agree that the Zeo system is the same as any other ULNS system. I mean nature is nature, we are recreating environments in nature. Its the coloring supplements that make Zeo different. The basic elements that create your ULNS system (the first phases of Zeovit) is probably very similar to dosing vodka, or prodibio, or Neozeo but they all have their subtle differences. Does Brightwell disclose everything in Neozeo? Or does Prodibio have a complete scientific breakdown of what it does? There is a business side to this all that drives the secrecy. Now all of the other supplements that you dose in the later stages of a Zeo system is what separates it from the rest. Thats also where you get a difference in color.

If you leave the US, do you realize how many people use the Zeovit system in Europe and Asia? You declare BS on Zeovit yet there are all of these serious users all over the world. They are also engaged in many scientific discussions on zeovit.com.

Zeovit is not the only product that doesn't list exactly whats in it. There are many of us that dose things like "trace elements". I don't even think many sea salt mixes list exactly whats in their mix.

The ultimate end is results. Zeovit's results speak for themselves. If you add up the cost, it really isn't THAT much more than any other system. Take out the "optional" coloring supplements and only count the raw zeovit products and the difference is very minor. Especially because the longer you run a zeovit system, the less you can dose. These things are not on the labels but are widely discussed in the Zeovit forums.

 

[fritz]

I always thought of hard corals like trees. I imagine some far far off time where trees aren't as common as they are now. Maybe we all live in space or something it doesn't matter. The point is people try and grow trees in an artificial environment like we grow corals. Now for the point:

Trees need a lot of things that are easy to provide if you just stick one in the ground on the side of a highway. Same deal with corals in the ocean. So in the future and in space, people get big glass boxes and some synthetic soil and they plant their tree. They add some worms and bugs to make the soil "live" which helps aerate it and so on. They install huge lights, maybe LED, maybe T5, maybe halide, whatever. They install HUGE fans because trees need to breath and anyone who's been to a greenhouse / grow-house can tell you there is some SERIOUS air movement going on.

Over time the trees grow and so on. I'm sure you can see the parallels to my hypothetical tree hobby and today's SPS keepers. Anyhow, some dude finds that if he cuts back the light, water and nutrients, the leaves on the trees turn CRAZY colors. The entire hobby now shifts to keeping the trees in perpetual fall. The thing is you need to fertilize the tree like crazy and provide a source of food for them because they aren't making much in the way of photosynthesis anymore. People start mixing and matching trees so that their tank has reds, oranges, yellows, browns and so on.

Just like with my made up tree hobby of the future, maybe the reason crashes can happen in a zeo system is because you're keeping the "trees" in a perpetual november. Perhaps (and I know this has been suggested by everyone and their mother) you're keeping them in an unnatural "between life and death" state whereby they are exhibiting these colors?

On a side note there are more than one road to the colors as wel all know. Plenty of people have overfed and overskimmed tanks with great color. Some people have underfed underskimmed tanks with great color, a bunch of stuff inbetween and of course Randy's big tank which falls in there somewhere.

Reefs contain tons of nutrients no? Every reef episode of any science show says that the reef is in that exact spot because of an abundance of nutrients coming in from somewhere which feed all the animals of the reef. I doubt our almost zero levels of nutrients mimics that which is on a reef. Therefor, maybe we're providing a perpetual fall by aiming to have zero nutrient tanks.

BAM!

 

[john90009]

Id rather purchase my corals from a natural tank because i know the colors wont change over time- as for in a zeovit system the colors will look good to the buyer then only change over time back to the normal way its supposed to look.

 

[cali_reef]

I always thought of hard corals like trees. I imagine some far far off time where trees aren't as common as they are now. Maybe we all live in space or something it doesn't matter. The point is people try and grow trees in an artificial environment like we grow corals. Now for the point:

Trees need a lot of things that are easy to provide if you just stick one in the ground on the side of a highway. Same deal with corals in the ocean. So in the future and in space, people get big glass boxes and some synthetic soil and they plant their tree. They add some worms and bugs to make the soil "live" which helps aerate it and so on. They install huge lights, maybe LED, maybe T5, maybe halide, whatever. They install HUGE fans because trees need to breath and anyone who's been to a greenhouse / grow-house can tell you there is some SERIOUS air movement going on.

Over time the trees grow and so on. I'm sure you can see the parallels to my hypothetical tree hobby and today's SPS keepers. Anyhow, some dude finds that if he cuts back the light, water and nutrients, the leaves on the trees turn CRAZY colors. The entire hobby now shifts to keeping the trees in perpetual fall. The thing is you need to fertilize the tree like crazy and provide a source of food for them because they aren't making much in the way of photosynthesis anymore. People start mixing and matching trees so that their tank has reds, oranges, yellows, browns and so on.

Just like with my made up tree hobby of the future, maybe the reason crashes can happen in a zeo system is because you're keeping the "trees" in a perpetual november. Perhaps (and I know this has been suggested by everyone and their mother) you're keeping them in an unnatural "between life and death" state whereby they are exhibiting these colors?

On a side note there are more than one road to the colors as wel all know. Plenty of people have overfed and overskimmed tanks with great color. Some people have underfed underskimmed tanks with great color, a bunch of stuff inbetween and of course Randy's big tank which falls in there somewhere.

Reefs contain tons of nutrients no? Every reef episode of any science show says that the reef is in that exact spot because of an abundance of nutrients coming in from somewhere which feed all the animals of the reef. I doubt our almost zero levels of nutrients mimics that which is on a reef. Therefor, maybe we're providing a perpetual fall by aiming to have zero nutrient tanks.

BAM!

Wow, so you running zeo neo whatever on your new tank?? What's up dude!

 

[Wes]

I always thought of hard corals like trees. I imagine some far far off time where trees aren't as common as they are now. Maybe we all live in space or something it doesn't matter. The point is people try and grow trees in an artificial environment like we grow corals. Now for the point:

Trees need a lot of things that are easy to provide if you just stick one in the ground on the side of a highway. Same deal with corals in the ocean. So in the future and in space, people get big glass boxes and some synthetic soil and they plant their tree. They add some worms and bugs to make the soil "live" which helps aerate it and so on. They install huge lights, maybe LED, maybe T5, maybe halide, whatever. They install HUGE fans because trees need to breath and anyone who's been to a greenhouse / grow-house can tell you there is some SERIOUS air movement going on.

Over time the trees grow and so on. I'm sure you can see the parallels to my hypothetical tree hobby and today's SPS keepers. Anyhow, some dude finds that if he cuts back the light, water and nutrients, the leaves on the trees turn CRAZY colors. The entire hobby now shifts to keeping the trees in perpetual fall. The thing is you need to fertilize the tree like crazy and provide a source of food for them because they aren't making much in the way of photosynthesis anymore. People start mixing and matching trees so that their tank has reds, oranges, yellows, browns and so on.

Just like with my made up tree hobby of the future, maybe the reason crashes can happen in a zeo system is because you're keeping the "trees" in a perpetual november. Perhaps (and I know this has been suggested by everyone and their mother) you're keeping them in an unnatural "between life and death" state whereby they are exhibiting these colors?

On a side note there are more than one road to the colors as wel all know. Plenty of people have overfed and overskimmed tanks with great color. Some people have underfed underskimmed tanks with great color, a bunch of stuff inbetween and of course Randy's big tank which falls in there somewhere.

Reefs contain tons of nutrients no? Every reef episode of any science show says that the reef is in that exact spot because of an abundance of nutrients coming in from somewhere which feed all the animals of the reef. I doubt our almost zero levels of nutrients mimics that which is on a reef. Therefor, maybe we're providing a perpetual fall by aiming to have zero nutrient tanks.

BAM!

puff puff give bro