Austrailia outlaws coral harvesting

[Anonymous]

Gavan

The hardest thing about this BB is to understand what a person truly means by his words. Throw in an emotionaly charged topic, an inability to read anothers nonverbal postures and we have a complete breakdown in communication.

You were close to what I meant. Australians are the first to pay the price for how we, the whole global community of aquarists goofed. We will all feel the effects though. If we would have supported tank raised purchases we would have been able to avoid these bans. The two fisheries in Puerto Rico are struggling because it does cost more to tank raise SW fish than wild caught right now. If We would have supported these from the start just think how fast this would have spread.

To a complete novice what do you think they derive from the fact that most freshwater species are tank raised but very few SW fish are. It is not that we can not successfuly spawn these fish in captivitity it is that we as hobbist refuse to pay the additional cost.

I am not down on Austrailia or the people of this country. What You all have done for the Leafy Seadragon is what humanity and Aquaria is all about. That is a outstading program from top to bottom. When I speak I include the global communnity. I love the country I live in but I have stepped on all the continents except Austrailia and Antarticia. Your Problems are my problems we all win or we all lose.

I have spoke mainly of fish propagation because it is the biggest eyesore right now. It is a shame this is a ban on coral because that side of the house has had the best advancements. It is all interconnected in how we are viewed by others.

[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]

 

[2poor2reef]

GavAn, I have appreciated your posts on this thread and admire your restraint. We in the United States lead the world in shallow minded emotionalism. But the idealistic roots mature into positive outcomes in many americans. Sounds like politicians are the same everywhere. Seizing on popular issues to win votes without stopping to really think about what they are doing. Sometimes the backlash comes only after poor policy has been adopted. If this ban is enacted I hope you and your fellow hobbyists can get it quickly reversed. Good luck to you.

 

[naesco]

Green Lantern
What did I say to deserve that comment which I guess I wrongly interpreted as hurting?
If you check the thread I said environmentalist reefers should be applauded, Australia should be commended for its conservations efforts to date and that we risk governments coming in with bans etc.

 

[Anonymous]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GavAn:
<STRONG>Fishaholic. Loosebrew, would you be as passoniate about reef conservation if it were not for this hobby? In apparently supporting this ban on the GBR / For the people who value the reefs and support minimal impact of our hobby as I do, I would say this - fight the real problems with vigor and don't think that it is enough to preach to the converted.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you wold have taken the time to read this thread you may have saved yourself a little embarasment. I have not given any support to this ban. I have advocated for all of us to buy responsibly. Unresponsible Hobbyists and no one else have brought this ban on. They gave the politicians a leg to stand on.

Since you ask about my efforts in conservation, in a very crude and child like way.
Here you go.

Participated in the effort to return and prepare captive breed Golden Headed Lion Tamarins back to the wild. Program started and chaired by Dr. Russell Mittermeier. I worked with a pair. Published a paper about the efforts. Still have the paper and press clippings of my efforts.

Worked with a pair of Siamang Gibbons, one of only a handful of people to work with these apes in a free contact environment. Again still have the press clippings. Effort to raise awareness of the plight of wild and also the program to return captive pairs back to the wild.

Want more? Go to the Directory of World Primatologists and look for David McGovern, you will have no problem finding me.

Also helped raise money to arm park rangers in africa to shoot poachers on site on protected land.

Did I have conservation efforts in the ocean? That is where it all began for me. My pareents were a part of an organization in Hawaii when I was growing up called Green Peace, of course it has changed a little since then. I grew up on the reefs and in the ocean. I think I learned to surf, dive and lay nets before I could walk.
Did I participate in conservation before I came a part of this hobby.... My whole life has been a part of conservation. I have returned back to the private sector but I will always be a wildlife conservationist. I do not want to bore you with more of my achievements but since you have taken time out of your day to criticize and attempt to belittle me, LIST YOUR CONSERVATION EFFORTS!!

[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]

 

[angel101]

Fishaholic, it's easy to take the high moral conservation ground, when you yourself are not affected! As far as your earlier comments on free speech go, Im not against contrary opinions, but I will challenge those,such as yours, which are misinformed.

[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: angel101 ]

 

[Anonymous]

It is sad that you can not see past your own country, we are all affected. I could care less about the effect on the hobby, my concern is the wild and both can exist with responsible people.

 

[angel101]

Okay, in your own words be a man and post a thread on this board to lobby for an immediate ban on all wild collected c0rals, liverock and fish from overseas into the USA!! I think that you are one of a minority, who look for any opportunity to rub people up the wrong way and then squeal when you get replies which upset your delicate sensibilities.

 

[Anonymous]

I enjoy discussing events that affect the world around us with people that canhold an intelligent conversation. I think ours has ended. By the way no one has upset my delicate world. Come back when you have a clue.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey, Australians, serious legitimate question.

A lot has been made in this thread that the Australian industry has been deemed sustainable. Can anyone point me to where that information is coming from? I'm not saying collection on GBR isn't sustainable (or that it is; I simply don't know), but I am curious to see the sources that state collection at the current levels is sustainable.

 

[naesco]

Green Lantern Thank you
I still do not understand what I wrote that would cause DBW to write the message he did?
Do you know?
I do not want to extend this thread any further than it already is.
Thank you

 

[MaryHM]

Read some of the facts and get links to the rest of the facts about the Australian Coral Situation at
http://www.reefsource.com/australia.htm

Out of all of the "conservation" talk that has been going on, the thing that amazes me is that some of you actually believe that banning the collection of fish/coral for the hobby will help save the reefs. You couldn't be further from the truth. Many posts back, loosebrew made the comment that he'd rather see the stuff in the wild than have some guy in Fiji make a few bucks. In Australia where they have a decent economy in place, one could argue that the collectors could find other lines of work. However, in countries like Fiji, Indonesia, Solomon Islands, etc... that is not the case. Ban collection for the hobby and the native peoples aren't going to run to college, get a degree, and go into another line of work. They WILL start fishing for the commercial food fish industry which is BY FAR more destructive than hobby collection. That's not to say that we should ignore the problems with the hobby collection. It is much more important to work on training the collectors to "do it right" than forcing them to start collecting food fish. Organizations like the International Marinelife Alliance (www.imamarinelife.org) are working hard on this, and I urge you all to support their efforts. It amazes me how arrogant Americans can be- we have refrigerators full of food, 2 cars, and nice house, and disposable income to spend on "hobbies", yet feel comfortable telling the rest of the world how they should behave...when the rest of the world is just trying to feed their families on a day to day basis.

 

[SPC]

I agree with Mary on this subject. If you and your family are hungry, you will feed them no matter what it takes. We can help these people learn how to manage a renewable resource, or watch them do their part in destroying the reefs. I see the marine hobiest as the most important factor in saving the reefs, but we must come together and demand that this resource is farmed in a logical manner and, that the world knows what a small part the aquarium trade plays in the destruction. We as hobiest can see a bit of the reef in our tanks, but I will never have, in my lifetime, as many corals in my tank as what one boat anchor can destroy in one day. The people who are doing the actual collecting are being paid pennies for their efforts and therefore probably dont have as much respect for the reefs as they would if they new what their reef is worth monetarily. I feel if these people were educated as to the worth of this resource, they would demand the world stop destroying THEIR reefs.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

MaryHM

That same logic was used years ago about wild collecting Howler monkeys. That the collectors had nothing else they could be doing because if they did not get them for the zoo and pet trade they would just hunt them into extintion for food.

This was not the case at all. these tribes have and use other food sources. The collection process invloved shooting the mother out of the canopies and striping the baby monkeys off her dead body. If that is not grim enough only 20 - 30 % of the infant howlers survived the fall.

You ask what does this have to do with our hobby, easy. How many fish survive from the collection point to the actual end user. I would expect very few.

The future of our hobby is not collection it is in captive propagation. If we continue with collection being the focal point, how long untill the growth of more people acquiring tanks before collection can not meet demand? Again the answer is captive propagation.

If you look outside our hobby you see we have traveled this road before in other species, the time is now to do what is right, not a total ban but if people will not of thier own accord support captive propagation then move them towards it.

I speared a Yellow Tang when I was a child and my father made me eat it. I can not see many people eating a lot of the fish we keep in our hobby.

I will never appoligize for the wealth I acquire. I studied hard and worked hard to get were I am.

I know you are not advocating it but what of all the poor farmers who grow Cocoa for the purpose of cocaine. In your logic if we cure our drug problems these people will starve also.

I whole heartedly can be a hobbyist and conservationist and have no conflicts as long as I support the industries that are furthering our Hobby.

I am not alone many of the people who did collecting in the Florida Keys see captive propagation as our future.

If you have never dived a large reef you would have a hard time walking away without wanting to do everything to preserve it.

You have your point of view and I have mine. I think there is room for both.

Before I am thrown to the lions for supporting this ban, lrt me say it again I do not but more will be coming if WE do not change.

Next time a newbie asks for advice on live rock I hope it is you Mary that suggests aquacultered

[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]

 

[MontanaRocknReefer]

To Everyone! I sit here reading this post and all the replys and I shake my head in amazement and we really all mean well in what we have to say.
I think of all the inhabitants on the GBR and other reefs of the world, and over a coarse of millions of years through adapting and changing with an envirnoment they have no control over, manage to survive and many ways become experts at surviving and carrying on their species. These inhabitants didn't put restrictions or bans upon themselves and WHY NOT?
Because they lacked what we are suppose to have which makes us a higher life form and that is BRAINS and God gave us all the power of free WILL to do what we wish.
So why in hell can't we get it right and enjoy this hobby? Well unfortunately we have Greed, lack of knowledge, lack of patience, power struggles and many other factors that are based on each individual's beliefs.
I really do love this hobby and I hope through my trials and mistakes and better knowledge of the reef and its inhabitants I will become a better person, aquarist and an ambassador of the reefs of the wild.
Sometimes I look at my yellow damsel and think; What if he had a brain and free will. He would be looking at me and wondering if he/she will be able to save me and trying to understand what my needs and wants would be so I could survive. I doubt he/she would put a ban/restrictions on me.
Maybe there is something to be learned from our inhabitants in our aquariums and on the wild reefs and we just do not see it!!
Sorry this is so long but I am just a mill worker in the middle of nowhere in Montana. Johnny

 

[DBW]

OK, finally I have a bit more time on my hands to come back here and make a more thorough post.

Let me first give you the back ground on why I made that statement. I had just spent most of my day trying to gather together information to assist in our campaign against what Senator Hill is proposing. Someone informed me that there was a thread on the topic happening on here, so I dropped in to see what people were saying. I was surprised to read some of the comments, which is why I made the statement I did. I suspect that several of the statements have been made due to lack of information. And I am sorry that I did not have the time to put in a more articulated post to fill in all of the gaps. At the time there was a more serious issue of arming the people involved here in the campaign than arguing/informing people on the other side of the world.

naesco and danmhippo, the statement was not to do with anything you had posted. So sorry if you interpreted it as that. My statement does not say .... "agree with me or get out of the hobby or off the board as I am an administrator". It is as I said, a statement of surprize that the opinions quoted below re the topic would be seen on a board like this. You are quite happy to have what ever opinion you want, I never tell some one other wise (within the bounds of common sense of course).

Troy (Green Lantern) got it right though. Reading statements such as "I never realized there are still coral harvesting in Australia. Thats sounds reasona ble to protect this beautiful creature. Nobody wants another Philipines" and "it doesnt matter if its sustainable...it doesnt matter how well managed it is. it shouldnt happen. period. especially in australia where it is such a unique and diverse ecosystem. and for us to think that its ok until it reaches a breaking point is ludicrous. the whole sustainable harvest bullsh!t is flawed IMHO", well after how close I have been to the issue myself in the last week or so I simply threw my arms up in dispare.

I simply do not see what is wrong with sustainable harvesting, and why people have such a problem with it. We have to manage resources, there is no way that you will be able to lock up vast areas for the world for conservation in a "no touch" zone, so why not use them in a responsible way, that minimises the impact on the ecosystem, but also supplies something that we need? What people should be aiming for most of these regions is the middle ground between total lock and total clearance. Sure some total lock up is good, and it should happen more.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

I feel for you all in Austrailia but these restrictions were going to start somewhere, maybe if you start advocating for people to buy more responsibly instead of making excuses for peoples unresponsible buying habits, ie, the cheapest live rock or ohh this is much more preaty. This is the end result, Bans and restrictions.

Fishaholic, do you realise that this is not a restriction? In effect, if this goes through then that is the end of the reef keeping hobby in Australia. There is already restrictions in place here in Australia. They are not perfect, but they are currently the model for the rest of the world. I will get into this a bit later ....

I will just post this so I don't loose it, and post another one with some more information on what is exactly happening here in Australia at the moment. Hopeful then to give people the information they need to make an eductated decision.

 

[jdeets]

GavAn--I second 2poor2reef's comment as well with respect to your restraint. I was having a bad night last night when I posted that, and I appreciate your civil response.

I interpret the comment not to mean that Fishaholic actually supports the ban, but more to the effect that Fishaholic feels it is deserved. Those are two different things. But I think that's probably already been clarified by Fishaholic.

 

[Green Lantern]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by naesco:
<STRONG>Gary the comment by DBW was hurting.

I appreciate anyone's opinion but the nature of the comment of DBW (agree with me or get out of the hobby or off the board as I am an administrator)is to be ignored (hopefully)or condemned.
I along with damnhippo and others are waiting for HIS clarification and hopefully his apology.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Am I missing something here? You've paraphrased for DBW and yet I don't read the same things you seem to have. If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance.

 

[naesco]

DWB
Thank you for your most recent post. I understand the pressure you were under. Best of luck in your presentation.
For my part, I promise never to take things personal again.
Thank you

 

[Anonymous]

Reports mentioned below (performed by those involved in management of the GBR and who advise Sen. Hill) all state that the coral fishery is sustainable.

Thanks, Dallas. Just what I was after.

 

[GavAn]

A couple of points of clarification:

1) Fishaholic. I agree with probably 95% of what you say. What I don't agree with is that you seem to be saying that the proposed ban is based on a rational dissection of the facts on the Senator's part and a decision made on those facts. It is not. While these type of knee jerk, "I'll give the public what I think they want rather than putting in the hard yards to find out what is appropriate" decsisons on the part of politican may occasionally get the right end the result, they are far too hit and miss to be of any value and more often than not,as IMO in this case, are more damaging than good. What I fear is that our Senator will now say "hey I did nothing to stop global warming or uranimum mining in a world heritahe park or improve land runnoff and other serious issues but I did save the GBR so there is no need to worry, just vote me in and I will do beeter next time". Meanwhile there is more global warming, more reef degradtion through land run off pollution and numerous other important factors and there is no hobby left in this country. I am not saying that I would not still fight such things but I think that the number of people by my side would progressively diminish. If the senator was mounting valid arguements about the hobby having detrimental effects on the GBR, that would be a totally different matter. That's about all I am going to say on the matter. I am not going to argue about propogation being the way to go because I agree with you.

2) As far as the collectors here go, we are not talking about impoverished people. They are doing a job that they love and who would not love such a job when they don't have a guilt trip to carry. The main collector that I get my stuff off directly is doing a PhD in coral biology part time. He could obviously do other things but is doing something that he enjoys. I like the fact that I can deal directly with a collector because I can express any displeasure that I have with the way he operates. I am not saying that all the collectors here are all knights in shining armour for the reef but they are not doing what they do out og deperation. Just wanted to clear that up.

Gavan