Has anyone tried or heard of Eco Aqualizer??

[Anonymous]

That pretty well sums it up

 

[tazdevil]

Taz, you have to be careful when comparing the effect of a fixed magnet and MRI. I, too, have experience with magnet . But it is in the field of that was known by a less politically correct name, NMR (nuclear magnetic). People can come back and point out to you that MRI operates in the radio frequences, while a fixed magnet does not

Ok, MRI was ORIGINALLY CALLED NUCLEAR MAGNETIC RESONANCE. This was changed as "nuclear" caused confusion with regards to ionizing radiation.

Mri magnets are always on. We cannot turn them off and on, only the radiofrequencies are turned off and on. Major difference here-an MRI IS a fixed magnet, the only time they're turned off is during a "quench"-blowing off the helium, which usually means replacing the magnet as this will cause damage to the magnet bore in most instances.

Lifer-since you directly mentioned me, until you show me SCIENTIFIC evidence of this device working, and not anectdotal, or "I don't know how it works, it just does" answers, you haven't proven a thing. No device gets approval based on those types of responses.

 

[Anonymous]

Just a couple of things to add, as Matt has done a great job. And Matt, thanks for buying one and testing it for us.

.....at the end of the day, ECO-Aqualizer works, wether you guys think its impossible or not.

You have still yet to show us any data that supports your statement. All you have said so far boils down to 'Trust me, it works'.

Your comparison to alternate fuel vheicles seems odd, as water treatment plants do not have to 'change everything' to use a product like yours. They have to change very little; all they have to do is put a big version in line.

Everyone says our website is full of mumbo jumbo technospeak. We actually get a majority of customers that say it is not. Just because you know little about what is said does not make it wrong. And honestly, what would you expect our website to say??

"The stinky stuff goes in and good stuff comes out" ??????

Well, that is not what the site says. Basically it says, 'stinky stuff goes in, and the filters you already have on your system will then be able to remove the stinky stuff'. Then there is a lot of MJT to tell us how that happens.

Some of us liken your product to Marc Weiss, not in process but in advertising.

Are some of you critics out there really so cheap that you would not try something that costs as much as a nice coral that has a 6 month guarantee!?!? If you return it, we actually lose money! We pay return shipping and get charged 3% or so for transaction. ANYONE THAT IS INTERESTED IN TRYING ECO FOR THEMSELVES CAN GO TO OUR PRODUCT PAGE, ENTER "OCEANS11" IN THE DISCOUNT BOX, AND RECIEVE 20% OFF.

Yes, but not because I am cheap. There are billions of products that give the exact same guarantee that you are offering. Should I try every one because I don't think they work? Also, when I have tested them, trying to return it has been a PITA, even though there are assurances that it will be an easy return.
Again, send me one. I will try it. If it works, I will pay for the unit, shipping and the 3% for the transaction. No risk at all for you.

Some of you, in attempts to save your EGO, may order it, not use it or use it improperly or unfairly and return it saying that it does not work.

I think that is on the rude, insulting side of the discussion.

For the stuanch critics: If you purchase ECO and don't at least perform testing fairly, you are no better then me about providing info.

Did you really say that?

Some of you demand an explanation for the exact dynamics. We are not here to try to explain how the Earth was created. We will not pretend to fully understand something that the scientific community does not fully understand either. We are several hobbyists and a bio-chemist with great vision. I can tell you however that ECO affects aquarium inhabitants in a positive way. Why? We are working on that but we will not be the ones with those answers. Billy Bob pH.D., M.D., MSCI etc. etc. will when the political BS and EGO wars subside and magnetic flux properties can actually be worked out better.

That is straight up con speak.

People have been burned, ridiculed, de-liscenced, dis-credited, dragged through the streets and on for ideas and beliefs they had which where found to be true decades or centuries later.

And many more people have become rich selling products that have been found to be scams just years or months later.

And please, stop asking us to open our minds. None of us would be having this discussion with you if our minds weren't open.

 

[Lifer]

OK. In the heat of the battle I fell face first in dog dooky. . Actually, I laughed about it myself as well. I feel like I am drowning trying to respond back to every comment. When I read the joke about bi-polar, I took it serious without getting the joke. What I had mixed up in my head was the fact that Zinc, Bismuth, and Antimony are repeled by magnets. I was confusing Lithium for one of these metals and Zofolor should have been my clue. If you think that this mix-up means that everything that I have said so far is bunk, I think this is ridiculus and unfair.

Look, we may think one another are ridiculus for what we believe is going on here with ECO-Aqualizer, but I can assure you that I am not a novice reefer. I would not be afraid to go head to head with any of you here on reefkeeping knowledge. By saying this I do not mean that I think that I can keep a better tank or know more about aquarium functioning, but that (without boring you with what I know about the hobby and how long I have been in it) I am not far below anyone in here as far is this hobby is concerned.

If you say that because I walked right into that joke without looking that I am an idiot, then I call you unfair. You know nothing about me just the fact that you don't believe in the product I sell. And I know nothing about you guys (extreme critics) save that you like to get on the internet alot and be hateful. Maybe I am wrong for saying "hateful" but to say someone is an idiot for one dumb thing they said is I believe at least unfair.

Regarding this word battle. I am not done until you guys are done. I can not post evryday but I will stick with it. I am as well learning a lot from this conversation as anyone else who is reading it. I refuse to go to a mud slinging level (even though I probably did for the "hateful" comment). That is to say that I felt like my comment was fair for the comment that Micah00 made. I will not do it again.

To MattM, I do not believe what I stated are conspiracy theory. Unless you live in a hole, you see it is reality. If your world is so "kind and gentle" I would like your address because I would like to live in your reality.

I will tell you all that I am not here to sell my product. I am in a discussion with you guys to try to explain to the best of my knowledge what may be going on with my companies product. I am not asking anyone to jump on the bandwagon and I am not trying to get you to buy it because I say it works. If you do you do and if you don't you don't. That is not what I am here for. Honest. I am under the assumption that you guys would not buy it anyways.

 

[Lifer]

I am still asking our CEO what I can and can not divulge. Info is coming.

Righty says:

Your comparison to alternate fuel vheicles seems odd, as water treatment plants do not have to 'change everything' to use a product like yours. They have to change very little; all they have to do is put a big version in line.

I seriously doubt Righty that a large ECO is what municipalities would use. The reason ECO does what it does is that it is used to recirculate a given amount of water. A water treatment thing would be one pass and would require a totally different set-up. Treated water in an ECO run tank is being recirculated through it to be retreated again.

Righty, you ask for a free unit but the CEO is not interested. He does not think you will be subjective. This is not my decision

Righty says:
Also, when I have tested them, trying to return it has been a PITA, even though there are assurances that it will be an easy return.
Again, send me one. I will try it. If it works, I will pay for the unit, shipping and the 3% for the transaction. No risk at all for you.

Again, I assure you that our return policy is as easy as it gets. However, I do not care if anyone here (RDO) buys it or not. That is not why I am here.


I said:

Some of you, in attempts to save your EGO, may order it, not use it or use it improperly or unfairly and return it saying that it does not work.

Righty said:
I think that is on the rude, insulting side of the discussion.

I am sorry Righty but I think it is a possible occurrence.

I said:

For the stuanch critics: If you purchase ECO and don't at least perform testing fairly, you are no better then me about providing info.

Righty said:
Did you really say that?

Yes I did. I am not sure how you are reading it but what I am saying is the lack of info that you have implicated me with and I agree I have not given it to you yet because I am trying to find out who, what, when, where, how, why, and to what extent I can tell you. It will be here when I can get it.

I am sorry but I don't remember who said it but someone said to not insult their intelligence for claiming that we are likened to Galileo. Please don't feed words into my mouth. I did not say that we are Galileo like. I was simply using an example of what happens to people when they change the way people think. You may not think that we will, however I think we will when we get some numbers and testing out there which is being worked on as we speak in Europe and the States.

 

[Lifer]

Sam Gamble had this to say about pH and conductivity:

Conductivity is measured in electrical current within
the system or usually an aqueous solution. In the
past it was most formally used to measure the
reciprocal of resistance (ohms). As time and
experience has passed it has been equated to other
things. To a point it can be exchanged in some
applications with total dissolved salts and density.
Conversion factors have been used to convert the
electrical quantification to parts per million of
solute in solution.

As things dissolve partially or totally to ionic
constituents the electrical character of the solvent
(in our case, aquarium water) changes. With regard to
how and to what, conductivity makes no discrimination.
So to use conductivity change, shows the ability to
carry charge and that constituents have been changed.
In theory a decrease indicates a reduction in
dissolved salts and other charged bodies capable of
conduction. For example, as urine, feces, ammonium,
nitrates, decomposed matter in general accumulate the
conductivity rises as well. So we successfully use
conductivity to make judgments on culture in captive
systems.

In this particular investigation, the reduction of
conductivity could be interpreted to indicate
reduction of solutes. Which ones are not determined.
A downward shift in nitrate, or an increase in redox,
would be helpful to indicate which constituents have
been changed and/or driven off into the skimmer
process.

Oxygen is a heavy gas. In living closed systems we
want to see required amounts as dissolved oxygen or
dioxygen or also known as DO. As the oxygen is
separated from one compound it can be a charged
radical negative ion. Then that available oxygen will
try and associate with an available positive ion or
molecule. It could also be assumed if oxygen were
free of need to associate with positive ions the shift
to dioxygen is more possible. In the skimmer
experiment we will have to theorize the actual
mechanics. However, to follow the thoughts further we
have decreased conductivity which also suggests
reduction in ion capacity. This would all seem
positive for biotics.

Magnets applied to flowing water can do an array of
things depending on several variables. Magnetic field
strength is one example. In cases where applied
magnetic field is helping the solvent-to-solute
relationships that would be of benefit to aquariums,
we can make some beginning general statements.

Let me start with just a couple to get the concepts in
view. If the pH is goes up in the test then the loss
is hydrogen and if the pH is going down then the loss
is oxygen. Re-apply this to earlier statements about
DO and redox and the scenario begins to unfold. It is
not a matter of high or low pH but what the ion charge
is over time and the energy emitted.

 

[MattM]

O.K. I've been doing some additional research...

I found a US Dept. of Energy document titled "Non-chemical technologies for scale and hardness control." which says, in part:

The general operating principle for the magnetic technology is a result of the physics of interaction between a magnetic field and a moving electric charge, in this case in the form of an ion. When ions pass through the magnetic field, a force is exerted on each ion. The forces on ions of opposite charges are in opposite directions. The redirection of the particles tends to increase the frequency with which ions of opposite charge collide and combine to form a mineral precipitate, or insoluble compound.

It even included this diagram:

Then I noticed that the DOE article was posted on a water conditioning company website (http://clearwatermax.com/fta/). A Google search turned up 304 instances of this DOE report, with 302 of them being companies selling systems to do this.

The other two were as follows:

1) The DOE website, which lists it as a retired document - "The reports have been removed from print, the FEMP Web site, and are no longer available." (http://www.eere.energy.gov/femp/prodtech/retired_pubs.html) Appearently, the DOE is aware of these other websites citing this retired document because they go on to say:

There are private Web sites that have copied FEMP reports from the FEMP and national laboratory Web sites. If the Web site you are reading does not have a ".gov" address, then the document may not be an official publication.

Neither DOE nor the national laboratories imply endorsements of either the technology or the technology provider. Those who claim DOE, FEMP, or national laboratory endorsements are incorrect.

FYI, most of the companies that I found do imply or state outright that the technology is endorsed by the DOE.

2) The other website that references this document is a page entitled "Magnetic Schemes and Scams", authored by Stephen K. Lower,
a retired member of the faculty of the Dept of Chemistry, Simon Fraser University, Canada. (http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html).

It says, in part:

Most water-treatment engineers who have investigated magnetic water treatment (MWT) in industrial settings report negative results, and there are no confirmed reports of successful MWT installations in the reputable scientific and engineering literature.

The widespread circulation of scientifically untenable "explanations" describing how passage of water through a magnetic field causes oppositely-charged ions to coalesce does little to inspire confidence that the promoters of these devices know what they are talking about.

It goes on to say, regarding the DOE report:

This 1998 document which has been withdrawn from circulation was a Federal Technology Alert from the U.S. Department of Energy that presented a suspiciously uncritical case for both magnetic and electrostatic water treatment. It provided no references to support the claims made, and the explanations of how these devices are supposed to work were scientifically naive. The report was apparently compiled by the Battelle Research Institute, which may have farmed out some of the work to the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory.

Because this report is widely cited by the magnet merchants (and copies are still apparently in circulation; see here for one), it is worth commenting on. We are told that the magnetic field deflects the ions in the water, causing them to move in opposite directions normal to the direction of flow so that ions of opposite charge collide more frequently, increasing the chances that they will combine and precipitate out before they have a chance to form scale or do other bad things.

The science: Charged particles moving in a vacuum are indeed deflected by magnetic fields, but ions in solution are too massive (remember that they have a primary hydration shell of H2O molecules attached to them) and too locked into the "cage" created by the surrounding hydrogen bonded water to be able to undergo any significant deflection as they pass by the magnet. (If this effect were really operative, the efficacy of the process would be a function of flow rate, and no mention is made of this in the article!) It should also be pointed out that oppositely charged ions encounter each other all the time through random thermal motions, and even form ion-pair complexes such as CaCO3° which can exist indefinitely as stable entities without precipitating.

It should be pointed out, that if these magnetic devices do actually work, one of the things they would excel at is precipitating out calcium and magnesium from the water. 8O

 

[MattM]

P.S., Mr. Gamble's quote a couple posts back is perfectly reasonable and logical. Unfortunately, it says almost nothing about your product or how it functions.

 

[Lifer]

MattM. I may be misunderstanding it but are you saying that I said:

There are private Web sites that have copied FEMP reports from the FEMP and national laboratory Web sites. If the Web site you are reading does not have a ".gov" address, then the document may not be an official publication.

Neither DOE nor the national laboratories imply endorsements of either the technology or the technology provider. Those who claim DOE, FEMP, or national laboratory endorsements are incorrect.

Sorry if you are not it just appeared that way.

 

[Lifer]

I'm sorry. I read it closer. Okay.

 

[Lifer]

ECO-Aqualizer uses North end only. Not North and South.

 

[tazdevil]

Lifer posted from Sam Gable:

In this particular investigation, the reduction of
conductivity could be interpreted to indicate
reduction of solutes. Which ones are not determined.
A downward shift in nitrate, or an increase in redox,
would be helpful to indicate which constituents have
been changed and/or driven off into the skimmer
process.

Too much assumption there- the reduction of conductivity COULD be interpreted to indicate a reduction of solutes.- he's saying he doesn't know. That can be measured rather easily, even using a precipitate method of before and after water would show the difference if solutes did get filtered out.

In addition

Which ones are not determined

that can and should be determined to prove your product works.

ECO-Aqualizer uses North end only. Not North and South.

Exactly how are you preventing south-pole influence?

 

[Anonymous]

What I was trying to say was that assume the device does remove all the organic waste, there should not be an significant change in conductivity because majority of the ions (Cl- and Na+) are still in the solution. This was not addressed in Sam's reply.

 

[Lifer]

You guys are going to get me fired. :wink: :wink: The magnet is size of watch battery. One face +, other face -. South pole faces away from internal tube. That is why we say keep unit about six inches away from aquarium water contact because of South pole interference. Please respect that I am leaking info to you that CEO doesn't want me to. I know however that it is neccessary to a degree. I believe I can convince him of that. 8O I hope.

 

[Lifer]

MattM,
From the statement I made about our experiment, your question and correction are off stage. The statement Sam made was to address directly what I reported. Sure I could add many procedures. That is not the issue.

The issue is simply condctivity as measured. Sam gave only common examples of solutes possible. From our experiment and my statement, that's all that's accurately possible.

Future experiments can fine tune variables. That is what you suggest. You are correct. That particular experiment doesn't really address this by design. Might I ask you what experiment you would like to see and also what variables would be better addressed by which methods?

 

[Anonymous]

You guys are going to get me fired. :wink: :wink: The magnet is size of watch battery. One face +, other face -. South pole faces away from internal tube. That is why we say keep unit about six inches away from aquarium water contact because of South pole interference. Please respect that I am leaking info to you that CEO doesn't want me to. I know however that it is neccessary to a degree. I believe I can convince him of that. 8O I hope.

????

So all of the other magnets (most bigger than a watch battery, and safe to say at least some of them have the south pole facing or in contact with the water) we all have in and around our tanks would interfere with the operation of the ECO? This seems like a serious problem with the unit, that is not discussed in any of your literature.

Please tell me how these other south pole sources do not interfere with the operation of the ECO.

 

[Anonymous]

Righty, you ask for a free unit but the CEO is not interested. He does not think you will be subjective. This is not my decision

I am not suprised - and I think that says a lot about his confidence in his product. Also, I think you meant 'objective'.

Again, I assure you that our return policy is as easy as it gets.

All infomercials say that as well. Heck, AOL says that, every try to get them to discontinue service and stop charging you?

 

[MattM]

I've been reading more about magnetic water treatment, far infrared, etc. One site I recommend a thorough reading of is: http://www.chem1.com/CQ/

Both FIR and Magnets have been invoked in all sorts of products and treatments: magnetic gasoline improvement, magnetic water treatment, far-infrared dog beds, magnetic and FIR medical cures, etc., etc., etc.

In the reading I have done, all of the companies selling and promoting these products are fradulent, scams, and quackery. Several have been sued, prosecuted by the FTC or FDA, or suffered similar fates.

When I re-read the ECO-Aqualizer web site I see the same claims and explanations made by these other companies for the same "technology."

It is impossible not to conclude that we are simply seeing the same dubious psuedo-science applied to aquarium filtration.

ECO-Aqualizer uses North end only. Not North and South.

I don't suppose you even begin to realize how ridiculous that statement is?

It's "cargo cult" science.

The story goes that there are islands in the South Pacific that were air bases for a short time during World War II. The natives got lots of cool stuff from the men who arrived in big metal birds, but then they all left.

The natives want them to come back so they make areas like runways, they put fires along the sides of the runways, they make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two coconut halves on his head for headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas. And they wait for the big metal birds to land.

They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land.

They think they're doing it right, but from our vantage point we see that they have a total lack of understanding as to why the airplanes came in the first place. The gulf of understanding is so large, you can't even begin to explain it to them.

By saying you use only the north end only, not north and south, you are adjusting the coconut halves in order to make the airplanes land.

 

[Mogo]

On the front page of their website they mention DOC which is not dissolved organic carbons. DOC is Dissolved Organic Compounds.
There is another thing called TOC which is Total Organic Carbon. Any rate, I'm off to slap on a piece of red film on my bulb and call it science. Where the hell did I put those magnets? Then maybe I'll do a conductivity reading.

 

[tazdevil]

This is a quote from a retired chemist at Simon Frasier University.

Light-related nonsense
Far-infrared fantasies
A number of promoters have attempted to cash in on the fact that water has a rich absorption spectrum in the far-ir region . Far-ir absorption is generally related to motions of entire molecules or groups of molecules within liquids and solids, and is hardly unique to H2O (but they don't tell you that!)

Some devices purport to use this radiation to break up the "clusters" of water molecules that they [falsely] claim inhibit the uptake of individual H2O molecules by the body's cells (as if a few billion years of evolution haven't managed to solve that problem!). There are even devices on the market that purport to do the same for gasoline so as to improve fuel economy; these are mostly magnets that are placed on the fuel line, and are of course completely worthless scams.

Another wrinkle on far-ir comes from a Korean outfit (and is marketed in the U.S.), which flogs a magical fabric that you are supposed to wrap around your rheumatic joints:

"FAR-IR ... has a frequency that is close to the natural frequency of water. Since humans are composed of over 70 percent water, this invisible light is in harmony with the water found in bodily tissues." For good measure: "Bio-Energy fabric also contains a special ingredient that generates negative ions. These serve many purposes including acting as a deodorant as well as an antiseptic, both without chemicals.

Another Korean site offers the following mis-information about far-infrared radiation ("FIR"):

Scientific research has confirmed health benefits FIR has brought to mankind. The key to all this lies in the fact that FIR has a special effect on water molecules. It is able to activate water molecules and infuse it with a form of energy found to be vital for living thing such as humans, animals and plants. FIR activated water appears in smaller molecular clusters which explains why it is more easily absorbed and used by the body. FIR activated water will enhance the performance of the function of water such as (1) energises the body (2) improves supply oxygen and nutrients (3) enhances toxin and waste removal from cells (4) improves cell metabolism and (5) improves blood circulation.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Far-infrared pseudoscience can be found in all kinds of products that are marketed to the physics-ignorant public. One of the biggest and most successful U.S. hucksters of Japanese junk science sells a product that they say

absorbs energy from a variety of sources — sunlight, body or room temperature — and releases it as energy in the far-infrared part of the spectrum. Often called "the wavelength of life," far-infrared energy is part of all living things.

Very true, but what they don't tell you is that all materials do exactly the same thing!

There you go. Much information about magnetism and water there too-it's from the link provided by MattM.

Lifer, I'm just curious, as you had said earlier about throwing some "tesla's at water", do you know what a Tesla is?