Calling beaslbob!! need help?

[Anonymous]

I think it is amazing those are the only options even considered

q Please explain that statement.

With Bob, aka the mad scientist, who knows

 

[Anonymous]

Beaslbob:

I think it is amazing those are the only options even considered

Please explain that statement.

Just my reaction. Guess it was based on running planted Fw tanks since the late 70's, a simple UGF FW system for 6 continuous years, and my current 55g with in tank refug. Obviously all those systems had the plant life lit with the display period. And have and are still thriving.

but then that is not refugium operation where you can actually consider 24/7 and reverse display lighting. So that does have other possibilities.

I was just amazed that same as display lighting was not considered.

 

[bradl.]

Polcat stated he would be running a 10 gallon display and 7 gallon refugium so I thought it was obvious that it would be lit seperately.Lighting"same as display"has been associated with ph swings but I guess to follow your technique this shall be the way he follows.

 

[Anonymous]

Polcat stated he would be running a 10 gallon display and 7 gallon refugium so I thought it was obvious that it would be lit seperately.Lighting"same as display"has been associated with ph swings but I guess to follow your technique this shall be the way he follows.

According to Bob, he needs the pH swing to dissolve the oyster shells.

 

[Anonymous]

Polcat stated he would be running a 10 gallon display and 7 gallon refugium so I thought it was obvious that it would be lit seperately.Lighting"same as display"has been associated with ph swings but I guess to follow your technique this shall be the way he follows.

Yes and the point is so what?

If the ph swing in and of itself bad?

For instance, I never measured ph in my fw and the fo salt tanks. then in my current 55g after about 3-4 months operation, I hit a wall. Any new fish like a tang or angel would slowly deterioriate, develop white spots, start breathing heavily then die over a three week period. Looking for a reason, I measured ph. it was down to light brown almost yellow on the aquarium pharm**** test kit. (7.4 or lower) and that was just before lights out.

A few months before I had added a cleaner crew and the turbos had done a very effective job of removing the algae in on the rocks. Ph would return to 8.2 with baking soda then a week later be down again.

One week after adding macros to the display, ph was at 8.4 and has stayed there for two years. Again just before lights out. And a yellow tang has been in there for two years and tripled in size.

My analysis is carbon dioxide had not been removed from the system, resulting in the ph drop. The ph drop was the symptom not the cause.

So with plant life consuming co2 with lights on, the ph will still drop with lights out. but in a 24 hour period the tank will be a net consumer of co2 and all the co2 from the fish will be removed from the system.

I speculate that the oyster shells will start a slow dissolving as ph drops. Providing the system calcium carbonate and limiting the ph drop. More calcium consumption during the day just means more oyster shell dissolving at night. And a huge amount of shells will protect the much smaller amount of corals from dissolving at night and provide them calcium for daytime growth.

 

[Anonymous]

Polcat stated he would be running a 10 gallon display and 7 gallon refugium so I thought it was obvious that it would be lit seperately.Lighting"same as display"has been associated with ph swings but I guess to follow your technique this shall be the way he follows.

Yes and the point is so what?

If the ph swing in and of itself bad?

If it is too big, yes.

For instance, I never measured ph in my fw and the fo salt tanks.

Then why mention them?

then in my current 55g after about 3-4 months operation, I hit a wall. Any new fish like a tang or angel would slowly deterioriate, develop white spots, start breathing heavily then die over a three week period. Looking for a reason, I measured ph. it was down to light brown almost yellow on the aquarium pharm**** test kit. (7.4 or lower) and that was just before lights out.

Seems like you answered your own question about pH swings being bad in and of themselves.

I speculate that the oyster shells will start a slow dissolving as ph drops.

According the Randy Holmes-Farley, someone you quote often, the pH needs to be in the mid 7's for this to start happening. If your plants are keeping the pH like you say, then you aren't getting any dissolving and if the pH is going that far down you should get dying fish - according to your reasoning above.

Providing the system calcium carbonate and limiting the ph drop.

Again if the pH drop is limited, no significant dissolution.

More calcium consumption during the day just means more oyster shell dissolving at night.

How so?

And a huge amount of shells will protect the much smaller amount of corals from dissolving at night and provide them calcium for daytime growth.

Whats huge? How does the chemistry in the tank know to dissolve only the oyster shells?

 

[Anonymous]

PS

The advice about chlorine and tap water has been to let it sand for 24 hours. Advocating adding fresh, chlorinated water to a reef tank can be dangerous.

 

[Anonymous]

PS

The advice about chlorine and tap water has been to let it sand for 24 hours. Advocating adding fresh, chlorinated water to a reef tank can be dangerous.

Unless your water company uses Chloramine and then it should be aerated for at least a week.

 

[Anonymous]

PS

The advice about chlorine and tap water has been to let it sand for 24 hours. Advocating adding fresh, chlorinated water to a reef tank can be dangerous.

Unless your water company uses Chloramine and then it should be aerated for at least a week.

Good clarification!

 

[Anonymous]

Polcat:

Just go ahead and have a successful system.

My water company does use chloramine. And anyone reading my posts in this thread and Righty's response can judge for themselves.

Bob

 

[Anonymous]

And anyone reading my posts in this thread and Righty's response can judge for themselves.

Bob

Judge what Bob?

Care to answer any of my questions or respond to any of my points? Or do you just want to let your refusal to clarify and justify your claims speak for itself?

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, Have a successful tank Polcat..steer away from Bobs methods...

 

[Anonymous]

Righty

Your response was a reponse to my posts. I was simply trying to avoid a 14 page tit for tat.

but you did raise a few questions so I will try to answer them:

:
For instance, I never measured ph in my fw and the fo salt tanks.

Then why mention them?

Because IME with sufficient plant life successful tanks to not require measuring ph.

More calcium consumption during the day just means more oyster shell dissolving at night.

How so?

Because the ph drop is a function of calcium in the system. Less calcium then more dissolving as carbon dioxide drops the ph. The dissolving limits the ph drop. Just that with more daytime calcium consumption the more shells are dissolved at night.

And a huge amount of shells will protect the much smaller amount of corals from dissolving at night and provide them calcium for daytime growth.

Whats huge? How does the chemistry in the tank know to dissolve only the oyster shells?

I give up how huge? My 55g has about 5 pounds of oyster shells and a few oz of sps's. calcium is ~400ppm alk 2.0 meg/l ph 8.4 just before lights out. And has been ot those values for amost a year now. The montopora digita has several frags growing with nice extension and good growth.

Sure sps's calcium carbonate does dissolve as does all the calcium carbonate in the system. So 5 pounds of oyster shells and a few oz of sps contribute calcium carbonate at night. The overwhelming vast majority of the calcium carbonate dissolved, therefore comes from the shells. Then during the day, the sps resumes calcification using the calcium carbonate from the 5 pounds of oyster shells and ozs from the sps. Therefore, the sps consumes more calcium carbonate then it has dissolved at night. The net effect is the oyster shell's calcium carbonate is used by the sps for growth.

All of which in intertwined. So if calcium consumption in increased during the day, there is more dissolving of the shells at night.

 

[Anonymous]

Righty

Your response was a reponse to my posts. I was simply trying to avoid a 14 page tit for tat.

The devil is in the details!

but you did raise a few questions so I will try to answer them:

Thanks!

:
Because IME with sufficient plant life successful tanks to not require measuring ph.

Any tank is like that. Once you are past the cycle your animals are a better indicator of problems than a test kit. Plants have little to do with it. I have no fuge and no macros in my sump and I don't measure pH often either.

Because the ph drop is a function of calcium in the system. Less calcium then more dissolving as carbon dioxide drops the ph. The dissolving limits the ph drop. Just that with more daytime calcium consumption the more shells are dissolved at night.

Randy says you won't get significant dissolution until the mid 7's on the pH scale. Are you hitting that at night?

And a huge amount of shells will protect the much smaller amount of corals from dissolving at night and provide them calcium for daytime growth.

Whats huge? How does the chemistry in the tank know to dissolve only the oyster shells?

I give up how huge?

That was my question.

My 55g has about 5 pounds of oyster shells and a few oz of sps's. calcium is ~400ppm alk 2.0 meg/l ph 8.4 just before lights out. And has been ot those values for amost a year now.

So 5 lbs/50 gallons?
Have you tested the ca of your tapwater? Have you removed the oyster shells to see if ca drops?

The montopora digita has several frags growing with nice extension and good growth.

How do you define good growth?

Sure sps's calcium carbonate does dissolve as does all the calcium carbonate in the system. So 5 pounds of oyster shells and a few oz of sps contribute calcium carbonate at night. The overwhelming vast majority of the calcium carbonate dissolved, therefore comes from the shells. Then during the day, the sps resumes calcification using the calcium carbonate from the 5 pounds of oyster shells and ozs from the sps. Therefore, the sps consumes more calcium carbonate then it has dissolved at night. The net effect is the oyster shell's calcium carbonate is used by the sps for growth.

That is very different from what you said earlier.
I still don't buy that you are hitting a low enough pH to dissolve any kind of ca media.

 

[polcat]

I still don't buy that you are hitting a low enough pH to dissolve any kind of ca media.

I don't think it's a question of IF it dissolves more like how MUCH dissolves. Bob Ferner indicates that calcium reactor media will impart some calcium carbonate with tank water passing through it at a ph of 8. Guess I'll find out soon enough, I have 50# of oyster shells left over from an agrocrete project. :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Polcat: yep. I think you are on the right track.

Righty.

It might help if you could search for my thread on ReefCentral in Dr. Holmes-Farley's forum. He did state that the oyster shells would start dissolving at a ph of 7.9 or so. I would do it myself but they won't let me search.

my calcium had dropped to 250-300ppm over a year or so. It rose to and has stayed at 400ppm even with a higher calcium load. And another tank stayed at 250-300ppm. Same water, same evaporation is both tanks. I did recently measure calcium in both. 55g tested at 1500ppm and the other at 400ppm. reference test was 435ppm which should have been 400ppm. Had used kalk paste to fight aptaisa. And had used a don't you do this thing to add magnesium. So I'll have to let things settle down a bit. :lol:

Another local club member added crushed coral with good flow and his calcium bumped up to 500ppm.

I feel fairly confident polcat will notice excellent calcium readings.

The only majic formula is to have enough calcium carbonate source in the system to limit the coral calcium loss to much below the coral calcium growth. 5# in my 55g is just what I am using. I notice growth on my digitata. Also have small 1/8-1/4" spots of nice pink corraline on rocks. So it seems to be working.

but if you just throw in some shells without the constant flow, then that is not what I am doing. It is not a DSB with aragonite sand type operation.

 

[Anonymous]

Polcat: yep. I think you are on the right track.

Righty.

It might help if you could search for my thread on ReefCentral in Dr. Holmes-Farley's forum. He did state that the oyster shells would start dissolving at a ph of 7.9 or so. I would do it myself but they won't let me search.

Don't need to, I asked him directly. No significant dissolution till the mid 7's.

Would you be so kind as to answer the questions I asked in my last post?

 

[Anonymous]

Righty - Keep in mind that Beaslbob's ALK is quite low. 2.0Meq/l if I remember correctly. This number could make a difference in the good Dr's answer.

I'm not saying that *POOF* at 7.9 Calcium screams up to 400ppm, just that it could start dissolving at such a low bicarbonate level.

What I don't understand is how corals could possibly build skeleton with so little Carbonate available.

 

[Anonymous]

Polcat: yep. I think you are on the right track.

Righty.

It might help if you could search for my thread on ReefCentral in Dr. Holmes-Farley's forum. He did state that the oyster shells would start dissolving at a ph of 7.9 or so. I would do it myself but they won't let me search.

Don't need to, I asked him directly. No significant dissolution till the mid 7's.

And just what exactly is signigicant. After all significant in an anerobic DSB or signigicant from a Ca reactor to get sps growth my be totally different from significant enough to limit the ph drop and produce sps growth in my aerobic environment. Again Dr. holmes farly did state that the shells would start to dissolve at a ph of 7.9 in the thread I can not refer too because I can not search RC. If you could then you could see is words there.

Would you be so kind as to answer the questions I asked in my last post?

Ok will try again

Randy says you won't get significant dissolution until the mid 7's on the pH scale. Are you hitting that at night?

one test just before light on brown (~7.8) an aquarium pharm**** test kit. Just as I have stated before.

So 5 lbs/50 gallons?

sufficient to limit the coral loss at night to some value less than the coral growth during the daytime.

Have you tested the ca of your tapwater?

nope

Have you removed the oyster shells to see if ca drops

nope and not necessary

How do you define good growth?

any growth is good. Haven't actually measured it but it seems to be ~1/4-1/2 inch per month.

 

[Anonymous]

Have you tested the ca of your tapwater?

nope

why?

Have you removed the oyster shells to see if ca drops

nope and not necessary

Again why?

sufficient to limit the coral loss at night to some value less than the coral growth during the daytime.

I dont understand that statement..limit coral loss at night? Dont you want to limit coral loss period?