Surge Device Thread

[Anonymous]

Well, a 24 inch column of water in a 4" pipe weighs 43 lbs

so the first test is to see if your shop vac can lift even 10 lbs much less 43 lbs

???

pi r^2 * h = volume 3.14 * 2" * 2" * 24" / 231 = 1.3 gallons of water which is 10.8 pounds not 43... me thinks you did 3.14 *4" * 4"

 

[RobertoVespucci]

So, again, what's the benefit here over the reverse carlson?

 

[Anonymous]

So, again, what's the benefit here over the reverse carlson?

Easy. Reverse Carlson is a negative pressure. It's like trying to use the intake of a water pump to accomplish water movement. Not very effective over long distances. I was really not very impressed by the water movement in that guy's tank either. This would be a positive pressure of water.

FWIW, using the same principle as the reverse Carlson with my little beer stein, it hardly makes any movement in my 10 gallon tank :?

 

[Anonymous]

...oh yeah, it wouldn't take up any space in the tank either.

 

[RobertoVespucci]

Ok. I don't think you're going to extricate yourself from moving parts, though.

 

[Anonymous]

So the vacuum issue is moot. Even relatively small pumps can suck up enough air to cause the water to rise.

The issue that I don't know how to get around is that when the water gets high enough in the device, the water in the tank drops, and air bubbles get in. It doesn't fully surge, just sort of gurgles. I think maybe I'll need to drill a hole in the outlet or something to get it to work.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, a 24 inch column of water in a 4" pipe weighs 43 lbs

so the first test is to see if your shop vac can lift even 10 lbs much less 43 lbs

???

pi r^2 * h = volume 3.14 * 2" * 2" * 24" / 231 = 1.3 gallons of water which is 10.8 pounds not 43... me thinks you did 3.14 *4" * 4"

Actually, I did it a far more complicated way

I googled "volume of cylinder"

typed in 4" outer diameter, 0" inner diameter, 24" length and it spit out something like 1206 which since I used inches should be in cubic inches right?

Then I googled "weight of water" which came up with Cubic inch = 0.036127 lbs

so then I just multiplied the two to get 43 lbs


Now, is my answer right?

I dunno, it sounded good though!
:lol:

 

[Anonymous]

So the vacuum issue is moot. Even relatively small pumps can suck up enough air to cause the water to rise.

The issue that I don't know how to get around is that when the water gets high enough in the device, the water in the tank drops, and air bubbles get in. It doesn't fully surge, just sort of gurgles. I think maybe I'll need to drill a hole in the outlet or something to get it to work.

Okay, here is an idear to get past that

have your cylinder just like you are planning, then have a vent line that goes from the top of your cylinder down the outside of the cylinder to the level that you want the tank to be at when it fires. It needs to be a fairly big vent I think, something like 1/2 inch pvc because as soon as the level gets there and the thing fires the vent will get covered up.

That should place the air right at the top

actually I don't think that will work either--I think the vacuum will find a gracefull but noisey balance between the vent and the main cylinder and just sit there

 

[Anonymous]

typed in 4" outer diameter, 0" inner diameter, 24" length and it spit out something like 1206 which since I used inches should be in cubic inches right?

Well think of a retangular shape that's 4"x4"x24" which a cylinder will be smaller than.

 

[Anonymous]

So the vacuum issue is moot. Even relatively small pumps can suck up enough air to cause the water to rise.

The issue that I don't know how to get around is that when the water gets high enough in the device, the water in the tank drops, and air bubbles get in. It doesn't fully surge, just sort of gurgles. I think maybe I'll need to drill a hole in the outlet or something to get it to work.

Okay, here is an idear to get past that

have your cylinder just like you are planning, then have a vent line that goes from the top of your cylinder down the outside of the cylinder to the level that you want the tank to be at when it fires. It needs to be a fairly big vent I think, something like 1/2 inch pvc because as soon as the level gets there and the thing fires the vent will get covered up.

That should place the air right at the top

actually I don't think that will work either--I think the vacuum will find a gracefull but noisey balance between the vent and the main cylinder and just sit there

That vent will just suck up water like the main cylinder. I thought of the same thing.

I think what needs to be done is to mess around with the air suction rate, and drill some small holes in the outlet just above the water line. If a Carlson surge device can work this can too.

(Another complication--this will be in a tank with an overflow and sump. The dropping water level in the tank will quickly be replaced by water from the sump.)

 

[Anonymous]

Hmm. I'm dumb. How can I make the water level in a tank drop nearly instantly to make this thing work? Wow. Duh. How did this whole idea start? The reverse carlson device.

If I put a reverse carlson and this thing in the tank--bam. Should work when the reverse carlson fires.

 

[Anonymous]

Whaaaa?

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I'll explain. This thing (let's call it the "wandell device") will be sitting above the tank, filled with water. There will also be a reverse carlson device in the tank. When the reverse carlson fires, the water level in the tank quickly drops, allowing air to quickly enter the outlet of the "wandell device", and the water will come surging out. Should work.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I'll explain. This thing (let's call it the "wandell device") will be sitting above the tank, filled with water. There will also be a reverse carlson device in the tank. When the reverse carlson fires, the water level in the tank quickly drops, allowing air to quickly enter the outlet of the "wandell device", and the water will come surging out. Should work.

Hey, is that sort of like using C4 as shaped explosive charges to start a nuclear reaction?

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I'll explain. This thing (let's call it the "wandell device") will be sitting above the tank, filled with water. There will also be a reverse carlson device in the tank. When the reverse carlson fires, the water level in the tank quickly drops, allowing air to quickly enter the outlet of the "wandell device", and the water will come surging out. Should work.

Hey, is that sort of like using C4 as shaped explosive charges to start a nuclear reaction?

Yes, exactly like that.

 

[Anonymous]

Matt. Good luck taking credit for it.

S'been done. Sorry. Let me know if you want to know how to do it right.

 

[Anonymous]

In fact, it's how this wave is made hundreds of times, day after day:

It does work incredibly well.

 

[Anonymous]

Matt,

is there a way you could utilize a check valve at the top of the column (outlet side to atmosphere) and use a powerhead to pump water in through a bulkhead in the container, as opposed to pumping air out? maybe i am half baked but it seems that this would work so long as you are building pressure within the container.

As soon as it starts to vent, the check slams shut and no more drop.

 

[Anonymous]

Also, the noise doesn't actually come from the water dumping. The actual surge is much less noisy than a Borneman or Carlson surge device. The issue is the vacuum. But it could be contained in a box or something. Hell you could use a little handheld dustbuster to do this. Or a better method of sucking air could be thought up.

It already has, and has been around for centuries.

 

[Anonymous]

Actually, I won't tell you. This could be fun. Several people have given you all the pieces in this thread that come together to make the device work correctly. I'll let you figure out which ones go together.