Surge Device Thread

[Anonymous]

Matt,

is there a way you could utilize a check valve at the top of the column (outlet side to atmosphere) and use a powerhead to pump water in through a bulkhead in the container, as opposed to pumping air out? maybe i am half baked but it seems that this would work so long as you are building pressure within the container.

As soon as it starts to vent, the check slams shut and no more drop.

Apologies Pod, didn't see your correction.

 

[Anonymous]

Awww Chris, you are no fun


I have an idear for a surge device, it works like this, a bit of dynOmyte and a match!

 

[Anonymous]

hehe Gaellon, that's ok, just like those other surge device names, people think those people invented them, they just were the first ones to put them in a book they wrote

 

[Anonymous]

Matt, do some calculations, how much does a 4" column of water weigh? If its 2 foot high?
...

I know I'm a little late on this one but and again the actual weight of the water not the important variable. And I did read the later post of 43 pounds.

Regardless of the diameter if the tube,if the pump is capable of supplying a perfect vacum, the water could be lifted in the range of 30'.

the question is whether or not the pump is capable sucking out enough air fast enough. Any reasonable vacum should easily lift any diameter water column 2 feet. But larger diameters will take longer to go up the tube because more air has to be sucked out.

 

[Anonymous]

Any chance the venturi valve on a powerhead would suck all the air out? Might be a useful experiment to try, i know it can suck water out to lift a bit of water a little bit (case of an overflow tube), wonder if it could suck the air out to lift 10 pounds of water, or even if it can't suck all the air out, maybe see how much it can, and live with those results.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok just tried it with a venturi, and it will suck the air out, I used a glass jar that's 6 inches wide by 7 inches high which is about 70% of the weight worth of water of the 4" x 24" cylinder it went at a nice pace too (old aquaclear 302 powerhead). I just jammed a tube up under the glass and held it with my hands over the tank. It got heavy near the end and two thing I noticed before the water level went below that of glass jar, is it made a loud kaslurp sound (if you've ever turned off your return pump yet kept the venturi line active on your overflow box then you know what this sounds like when it sucks the air out while raising the water level to make a siphon then craps out because there's not enough water due to lack of incoming water) second and much more importantly the water only fell a couple inches before stopping (as the tank water level rose higher then the edge again), this may be the big thing to stop it from working correctly.

Now one idea I had to combat that last problem, since Matt's afraid of moving parts, is put some springs on the end of your tube, work it out so a full tube's weight stretches the springs just enough so the water level is below that of the edge of the tube to let it slosh out, then as the water leaves the tube there's less weight so the spring pulls the tube back up so that all the water inside can leave. Just a thought, and the springs would probably prematurely stretch, but might be worth a macgyverism

 

[Anonymous]

Actually, I won't tell you. This could be fun. Several people have given you all the pieces in this thread that come together to make the device work correctly. I'll let you figure out which ones go together.

Or you could just tell me. :?

 

[Anonymous]

Well all I could find on the one pictured was this.

Water is sucked up into vertical storage tanks and then dropped, somewhat like a toilet flushing, to form a downward surge. The released water compresses and rebounds off the bottom of the pool, surging upwards and forwards. When coupled with the abrupt bottom contours of the pool, this surge forms a jacking 6-foot wave with groundswell-like strength. Surfable waves up to 8 feet and a 10-foot closeout are possible, although surfing quality suffers beyond the optimum 6-foot size.

And some talk about vacuum and pneumatic technologies. I'd like to build something that fits on my 40 gallon tank. Guess I'll just have to wait until Chris enlightens us all.

 

[Anonymous]

Well all I could find on the one pictured was this.

Water is sucked up into vertical storage tanks and then dropped, somewhat like a toilet flushing, to form a downward surge. The released water compresses and rebounds off the bottom of the pool, surging upwards and forwards. When coupled with the abrupt bottom contours of the pool, this surge forms a jacking 6-foot wave with groundswell-like strength. Surfable waves up to 8 feet and a 10-foot closeout are possible, although surfing quality suffers beyond the optimum 6-foot size.

And some talk about vacuum and pneumatic technologies. I'd like to build something that fits on my 40 gallon tank. Guess I'll just have to wait until Chris enlightens us all.

Put together some of the ideas given in this thread.

 

[Anonymous]

And it will require moving parts.

 

[Anonymous]

Well I imagine what they're doing is sucking water up then opening a closed valve at the top of the chamber to release it all. I can't think of a way to have a valve do that repeatedly and have it cheap and saltwater safe. The pressure relief valves I found that were all plastic were well over $200 a piece.

I still think this can be accomplished without moving parts.

 

[Anonymous]

Matt. Good luck taking credit for it.

S'been done. Sorry. Let me know if you want to know how to do it right.

Tongue in cheek, as you like to say. But check out what I found whilst doing some web searching...

http://www.acterna.com/global/News_And_ ... 800_1.html

"INDIANAPOLIS, IN (June 28, 2000) – The new company formed by the merger of Wavetek Wandel Goltermann (WWG) and TTC today announced that it has reached a definitive agreement to acquire Cheetah Technologies through Dynatech Corporation, the new company's parent organization."

Hehe...this made me laugh. What a weird coincidence. My last name is certainly not a common one. My family's the only one in the phone book in Sacramento. A company called Wavetek (I think it's a different company though) makes wave makers for surf parks.

 

[Anonymous]

http://science.howstuffworks.com/wave-pool5.htm

Interesting link.

So Chris, why couldn't it work the way I desrcibed it without moving parts? Large volume of water is sucked up, and released by a "valve". Except in this case the "valve" opening is just a reverse carlson device firing. It would quickly lower the tank level, and let air into the other device's outlet. Seems like it should work.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Matt


did you think of the fact that a vacuum actually puts the air somewhere when it sucks it out?

what if you have the air from the vacuum go to your reverse carlson?

That should ensure that they fire the same time as when you suck it out of one it goes to the other.


I do think it will ruin your shop vac though...

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not going to use a vacuum. An airline connected to the intake (not like a venturi) of a pump should work just fine. You're right if I did use one it would be hard not to have water getting sucked into it.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not going to use a vacuum. An airline connected to the intake (not like a venturi) of a pump should work just fine. You're right if I did use one it would be hard not to have water getting sucked into it.

well then how about an airline connected to the outlet of the pump going to your reverse carlson?

run both for half the price....

 

[RobertoVespucci]

So, galleon, you spilling yet?

 

[Anonymous]

Is the idea to suck the air outta the pipe/container, the water rise there and lower in the tank, then uncover the bottom of the pipe breaking the suction?

That could work. possibily. But getting a clean "break" to empty the container could be the detail problems. And the noise of the air pump also. But that could be hidden away.

 

[Anonymous]

Is the idea to suck the air outta the pipe/container, the water rise there and lower in the tank, then uncover the bottom of the pipe breaking the suction?

Exactly. But it doesn't work for obvious reasons once you set it up. As it starts to dump, the water level rises again and cuts it off.

That could work. possibily. But getting a clean "break" to empty the container could be the detail problems. And the noise of the air pump also. But that could be hidden away.

I've mentioned three times now that you could use an airline connected to the intake of a powerhead to accomplish the suction. It is orders of magnitude quieter than any other surge device.

I believe that the easiest way to get the dump, though, is to install a motorized ball valve or solenoid or something at the top of the container to allow air to enter quickly. I've tried it by simply plugging up a hole with my thumb and then releasing it, and it works. The issue is getting something motorized to do that.

 

[Anonymous]

hmmmmm thinking :lol: