Vendor Issues
- Thread starter Josh
- Start date
- Status
The signature appears to have been a link; the link is written out in the signature, though the image itself is missing. So the signature wasn't removed, but the image the link leads to seems to have been. Who has access to that link at photobucket? Probably the owner of the image.
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Well said.
With MR members trying to piece this story together, it's impossible to make an informed decision on what was right and wrong. If you open this thread, then ALL the facts should be laid upon the table AND Ronen should be allowed to voice his side for public viewing. Is this not a form of censorship? You open this up for discussion and lock out one of the key players?
Well welcome to reality people with authority/money rule. That's just the way life is. I dont want to mention any particular examples but we know of a few. Not everything in life is fair. Does it suck yes it does but it seems like there is nothing we can do.
Do mods have too much power??? Yes they do. They delete something you said and then you think to yourself if you are stupid or not and wonder if you ever posted something or not. Do mods tell you why they deleted it? Never. Its it fair? Nope. Too much power? Yes.
Do mods have too much power??? Yes they do. They delete something you said and then you think to yourself if you are stupid or not and wonder if you ever posted something or not. Do mods tell you why they deleted it? Never. Its it fair? Nope. Too much power? Yes.
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- Location
- Marine Park
This is kind of getting off track:
Josh, your site has turned into a flea market. Vendors should not be mods. The "Mod" title comes with a badge that says : "I know what I'm talking about, I have more experience than other people here. You can trust what I say" Now what happens when the person wearing that badge recommends a skimmer for you to purchase and happens to be able to get you a great deal on it?
On one hand that is fantastic and one of the things that makes this site great, on the other it is immoral. Which one of those depends on whom you are in the transaction. If I was the newbie buyer it would be great, if I were a vendor on this site I'd be pretty pissed off.
The other HUGE problem comes when someone places items for sale in a thread and another user contacts each person posting "Ooh I want one" stating to these users: "I have that cheaper if you want it"
Again both good and bad. When this happened to me, as a user I was like "Wow this guy's cool" However, if I were the person selling it, or another vendor I'd have been furious.
Josh your job needs to involve policing this site and more importantly protecting your wallet. I imagine that vendors play a big role in financing this site. If I were a vendor and heard that you were allowing other vendors to PM my customers with messages like "I can get that cheaper" you'd be cutting me a refund check. By not preventing it from happening, or creating harsh consequences for that action you are by default allowing it to happen.
Also it sucks that the vendors have taken over the For Sale Forum. Anyone breaking down their tank or selling a stray pump is bumped right off the main page. It's become a flea market. Every "Which ....... should I get" becomes a feeding ground for vendors selling their goods. WTF? What happened? It makes the "100s of other reef sites" very appealing and that is a d@mn shame! Most of the people I've come to be friends with dont' spend much time on here and THAT is a d@mn shame! Your pool of educated and successful reefers is dwindling leaving newbies to advise other newbies on good practices in reefing.
Josh, your site has turned into a flea market. Vendors should not be mods. The "Mod" title comes with a badge that says : "I know what I'm talking about, I have more experience than other people here. You can trust what I say" Now what happens when the person wearing that badge recommends a skimmer for you to purchase and happens to be able to get you a great deal on it?
On one hand that is fantastic and one of the things that makes this site great, on the other it is immoral. Which one of those depends on whom you are in the transaction. If I was the newbie buyer it would be great, if I were a vendor on this site I'd be pretty pissed off.
The other HUGE problem comes when someone places items for sale in a thread and another user contacts each person posting "Ooh I want one" stating to these users: "I have that cheaper if you want it"
Again both good and bad. When this happened to me, as a user I was like "Wow this guy's cool" However, if I were the person selling it, or another vendor I'd have been furious.
Josh your job needs to involve policing this site and more importantly protecting your wallet. I imagine that vendors play a big role in financing this site. If I were a vendor and heard that you were allowing other vendors to PM my customers with messages like "I can get that cheaper" you'd be cutting me a refund check. By not preventing it from happening, or creating harsh consequences for that action you are by default allowing it to happen.
Also it sucks that the vendors have taken over the For Sale Forum. Anyone breaking down their tank or selling a stray pump is bumped right off the main page. It's become a flea market. Every "Which ....... should I get" becomes a feeding ground for vendors selling their goods. WTF? What happened? It makes the "100s of other reef sites" very appealing and that is a d@mn shame! Most of the people I've come to be friends with dont' spend much time on here and THAT is a d@mn shame! Your pool of educated and successful reefers is dwindling leaving newbies to advise other newbies on good practices in reefing.
- Location
- Brooklyn, NY
So let me see, moderators are being taken to task for actually moderating. Wait they are being taken to task for not moderating enough. Or is it fairly enough whatever that means. Oh may be it is that their moderating decisions aren’t viewed as wise ones by those who were moderated. But it is the actions of those who object to the moderating that caused the moderators to feel the need to moderate. But if they ignored those feelings then they’d be taken to task by others for not moderating again…..Does your head hurt??? Mine does.
I’ve been asked several times if I would consider becoming a moderator and have declined for “instinctive” rather than specific reasons. It is now clear to me that instincts are very powerful and I could not be paid enough to even consider it. It is a thankless job, and I’m grateful to those who even try.
If it were up to me (and it most assuredly isn’t) the Vendors and the Members Marketplace would be buried in the bowels of the site. MR has become a Shopping Mall subject to the harsh and sometimes nasty discourse of the profit motive. I personally find it most distasteful. Let me be clear, I have no problem with the Vendors on MR, in the main I think they do a good job and provide great benefit to the membership. I do however find the predominance of commerce over content to be most troubling. After all, isn’t the roots of this current pissing match about perceptions of how level the playing field is for vendors?
A few not particularly well thought through suggestions:
1) Remove all vendor related references from sig. lines etc.
2) All Vendors should purchase banners that link to websites where they are free to conduct business as they please. If MR feels a vendor is not meeting our standards they should not be allowed to purchase one.
3) Vendor forums will be used exclusively to answer questions about products/livestock/ inquiries etc. and NOT used for solicitation and advertising.
4) To increase benefit to the membership a system can be developed where vendors on some sort of rotating basis ( monthly?) can offer and advertise specials.
5) Spend less time/resources/front page space on helping people buy and sell stuff and more on helping them figure out what to do with the stuff they buy and sell.
I’m sure the vendors ( and many many members who view MR as a marketplace) will not like this and it may cut into their sales a bit, but it would allow vendors to participate in the content forums in a less conflicted manner, contributing their knowledge and personalities to the community, while still affording the membership access to the quality services and prices they have come to expect from our vendors. In this scenario, the issue of a Vendor/Mod is largely moot.
Randy
I’ve been asked several times if I would consider becoming a moderator and have declined for “instinctive” rather than specific reasons. It is now clear to me that instincts are very powerful and I could not be paid enough to even consider it. It is a thankless job, and I’m grateful to those who even try.
If it were up to me (and it most assuredly isn’t) the Vendors and the Members Marketplace would be buried in the bowels of the site. MR has become a Shopping Mall subject to the harsh and sometimes nasty discourse of the profit motive. I personally find it most distasteful. Let me be clear, I have no problem with the Vendors on MR, in the main I think they do a good job and provide great benefit to the membership. I do however find the predominance of commerce over content to be most troubling. After all, isn’t the roots of this current pissing match about perceptions of how level the playing field is for vendors?
A few not particularly well thought through suggestions:
1) Remove all vendor related references from sig. lines etc.
2) All Vendors should purchase banners that link to websites where they are free to conduct business as they please. If MR feels a vendor is not meeting our standards they should not be allowed to purchase one.
3) Vendor forums will be used exclusively to answer questions about products/livestock/ inquiries etc. and NOT used for solicitation and advertising.
4) To increase benefit to the membership a system can be developed where vendors on some sort of rotating basis ( monthly?) can offer and advertise specials.
5) Spend less time/resources/front page space on helping people buy and sell stuff and more on helping them figure out what to do with the stuff they buy and sell.
I’m sure the vendors ( and many many members who view MR as a marketplace) will not like this and it may cut into their sales a bit, but it would allow vendors to participate in the content forums in a less conflicted manner, contributing their knowledge and personalities to the community, while still affording the membership access to the quality services and prices they have come to expect from our vendors. In this scenario, the issue of a Vendor/Mod is largely moot.
Randy
- Location
- Union Square, NY
Thank you Randy, very well put.
- Location
- Marine Park
Well said.
the way this hole thing was handled by the powers to be here at MR is very one sided and unfair to Ronen. he has always made sure he gave the members here at MR more then fair prices and healthy livestock to the members. i have never seen any bad feedback about Ronen at all. we are lucky to have a vendor like him here at MR. at this time i ask that the ones that banned Ronen from this site to cool off, and re think how they went about this in the wrong way and hash things out with him. let him back and put it behind us all and move on. also i will not donate any more money to this site until things start to move back in the right direction as should the rest of the members here.
- Location
- Greenpoint Brooklyn, NY
wow, i must have been living under a rock.
well i guess this is a free country and everyone can choose which sites they will frequent and which they will avoid.
Personally, i am happy i got to enjoy MR when i first started using it because as most of the old timers can attest to, its nothing like it used to be.
the family atmosphere is gone and it is a shame.
well i guess this is a free country and everyone can choose which sites they will frequent and which they will avoid.
Personally, i am happy i got to enjoy MR when i first started using it because as most of the old timers can attest to, its nothing like it used to be.
the family atmosphere is gone and it is a shame.
Randy, well said!!
Ronen, be cool and stay cool!! You have plenty of loyal customers and I am sure you will be posting on this board soon enough.
Jim, I think you have shown you can be a mod and a vendor at the same time. But being a mod may restrict the great potential you have with the new setup and providing us with the great service. I rather get good fish from you than asking you how to clean a tank with 13 gallons of vinegar :lol2:.
Josh, thank you for having this site available to us and I think being a mod is a thankless job. Most of the time one of the party in a dispute will not be happy with the result, right or wrong. I second Randy's idea of allowing vendors to only post links to their sale, this place has become a flea market. Have another drink and give Ronen a chance to better explain him self, maybe he will buy you a drink or two while he sips of gingerale:lol2:.
Back to reefing!! Time for few water changes and plucking algae!!
Ronen, be cool and stay cool!! You have plenty of loyal customers and I am sure you will be posting on this board soon enough.
Jim, I think you have shown you can be a mod and a vendor at the same time. But being a mod may restrict the great potential you have with the new setup and providing us with the great service. I rather get good fish from you than asking you how to clean a tank with 13 gallons of vinegar :lol2:.
Josh, thank you for having this site available to us and I think being a mod is a thankless job. Most of the time one of the party in a dispute will not be happy with the result, right or wrong. I second Randy's idea of allowing vendors to only post links to their sale, this place has become a flea market. Have another drink and give Ronen a chance to better explain him self, maybe he will buy you a drink or two while he sips of gingerale:lol2:.
Back to reefing!! Time for few water changes and plucking algae!!
and again you all missed the point
ronen made a complaint about a member and a a mod and the only thing that happened was that he go suspended
nothing else happened to the mod or the member
this is what this thread is about
the only sad thing is that josh does not seem to understand this yet
please tell us josh HOW ARE YOU HANDLING THIS
WHAT ARE YOY GOING TO IN THE FUTURE TO PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.
you have not handled this in any sort of proffesional way
the only thing you acomplished is just publicly showing us how things don't get taken care of
you've avoided the whole topic
ronen made a complaint about a member and a a mod and the only thing that happened was that he go suspended
nothing else happened to the mod or the member
this is what this thread is about
the only sad thing is that josh does not seem to understand this yet
please tell us josh HOW ARE YOU HANDLING THIS
WHAT ARE YOY GOING TO IN THE FUTURE TO PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.
you have not handled this in any sort of proffesional way
the only thing you acomplished is just publicly showing us how things don't get taken care of
you've avoided the whole topic
- Location
- poughquag, ny
vendor's
pratt very well put and i totally agree. as a business person myself, id be pissed if i was advertising something and someone else seen who was interested and pm'ed them to under cut my price. that's a snake in the grass and if they will do it to one they wil do it to all. i wouldnt blame ronen for not wanting to come back and as stated thing's wouldn't be the same for him after this. but out of curiousity. was this member caught doing this ? and if so is he still a member ? as for being a mod i will say this. no matter what decision they make there will be no way of making all parties happier. with growth come's problem's and being a newer member here i've seen thing's coming to a head. not sure if there is a complaint board for issue's. and being this is a member board, why not put a little of the power in the member's hand's.
To Josh. all i can say is ty for the site. ive learnt a ton from the time i have been here. i keep seeing it said that run this like is a business. not sure what was your purpose when you started this site { to make money, or to have a learning site of information } but rule's are rule's those set should be enforced across the board. and not in favor of favorite member's. just my 2 cent's
pratt very well put and i totally agree. as a business person myself, id be pissed if i was advertising something and someone else seen who was interested and pm'ed them to under cut my price. that's a snake in the grass and if they will do it to one they wil do it to all. i wouldnt blame ronen for not wanting to come back and as stated thing's wouldn't be the same for him after this. but out of curiousity. was this member caught doing this ? and if so is he still a member ? as for being a mod i will say this. no matter what decision they make there will be no way of making all parties happier. with growth come's problem's and being a newer member here i've seen thing's coming to a head. not sure if there is a complaint board for issue's. and being this is a member board, why not put a little of the power in the member's hand's.
To Josh. all i can say is ty for the site. ive learnt a ton from the time i have been here. i keep seeing it said that run this like is a business. not sure what was your purpose when you started this site { to make money, or to have a learning site of information } but rule's are rule's those set should be enforced across the board. and not in favor of favorite member's. just my 2 cent's
- Location
- The Big City
All of the things that have been posted in the thread have been discussed by the Moderator recently.
-From taking vendors completely off the board to burring them in their own forum, so their posts aren't seen on the main page. Also how after a vendor has posted something another vendor makes a post just so he can try and grab attention from the other vendor.
-We've discuss making vendors only being able to post what they have for sale in their own forum, and then doing business by PM or email.
-Also instead of giving each vendor a forum just giving them a link, which would take them to their own website, just like RC does.
-Giving each vendor a separate user id for selling and posting, and also taking away all footers adverting their companies.
-Also laying out the rules for vendors and holding every vendor up to them, something that probably hasn't been done.
All of these things have been discussed and it look like some were going to be put in place.
A big problem that I have, and some other mod also have, is that MR has turned into Craig list. This was something that was addressed too. Some people had no problem getting rid of the vendor completely while others didn't have a problem with them on being on the board, and in the end do they supply a value to MR. The big problem, which is something I haven't been personally happy with for quite sometime now, is that selling has taken away all the content on the board.
Finally, we did speak about Jim being a Mod and a vendor on the board and how some people did have a problem with it, even if it never was said out loud. Even if Jim didn't do anything wrong the perception, of him being a vendor and mod, was a problem and in my book shouldn't have been allowed, especially when you're taking money from vendors to be on the board. One solution was to create two separate user ID, one for selling and one for posting. Also hopefully with some of the proposed changes it would have eased some of the problems with Jimmy being a vendor and a mod.
There is money to be by vendors on MR and unfortunately when there is money involved things can and usually do get out of hand.
-From taking vendors completely off the board to burring them in their own forum, so their posts aren't seen on the main page. Also how after a vendor has posted something another vendor makes a post just so he can try and grab attention from the other vendor.
-We've discuss making vendors only being able to post what they have for sale in their own forum, and then doing business by PM or email.
-Also instead of giving each vendor a forum just giving them a link, which would take them to their own website, just like RC does.
-Giving each vendor a separate user id for selling and posting, and also taking away all footers adverting their companies.
-Also laying out the rules for vendors and holding every vendor up to them, something that probably hasn't been done.
All of these things have been discussed and it look like some were going to be put in place.
A big problem that I have, and some other mod also have, is that MR has turned into Craig list. This was something that was addressed too. Some people had no problem getting rid of the vendor completely while others didn't have a problem with them on being on the board, and in the end do they supply a value to MR. The big problem, which is something I haven't been personally happy with for quite sometime now, is that selling has taken away all the content on the board.
Finally, we did speak about Jim being a Mod and a vendor on the board and how some people did have a problem with it, even if it never was said out loud. Even if Jim didn't do anything wrong the perception, of him being a vendor and mod, was a problem and in my book shouldn't have been allowed, especially when you're taking money from vendors to be on the board. One solution was to create two separate user ID, one for selling and one for posting. Also hopefully with some of the proposed changes it would have eased some of the problems with Jimmy being a vendor and a mod.
There is money to be by vendors on MR and unfortunately when there is money involved things can and usually do get out of hand.
Joe,
That was not the purpose of the thread. Josh explained the reason he posted this. I dont think the outcome of the posting is not exactly what I thought he expected either. But to say the least, I think some positive thoughts have come out of it either way. I like some of the suggestions brought up here and it sounds like the membership does too. I think that the MODS and Josh will be getting a chance to figure out what the best direction the site should be going in without changing the way we treat each other here.
I am a friend of Ronen's and I have talked to him about the situation. Yes he is a good person, yes he does help the community with great products at great prices. But.. he can also be a pain in the ass
I told him so, so dont get bent out of shape. He knew what was going to happen when this was coming to a head so dont think that this was a sudden "get Ronen" thing.
The MODS were in constant contact with him trying to resolve the issues presented before them. They (I) understood Ronens frustration about the undercutting of his products by certain individual here on the site (which I thing is crappy). Things got out of hand, words were exchanged before clearer heads prevailed and this was the outcome.
I also want to address this problem too... No we are not children here but that does not mean you have to use profanity to get your point across to someone. Dont PM or email me with alot of profane language and expect anything from me (this is a personal peeve with me). The same way you expect someone to treat you is the same way you should treat others. Yes we all use some kind of language around our friends that other might be construed to be rude, but in communication with individuals in a serious manner, use the correct language in order to be taken seriously and prevent the afformentioned problems.
I introduced alot of people to this site WAY... before I was made a MOD. Things HAVE changed here since that time. It was more of a family/friendly atmosphere then. But we used to have only MAX 100 members. We weren't open to the outside world then. Most of the members at that time had either come to my home or I to thiers. Things change. More members means more problems. The in-fighting and bickering needs to stop. Oh yeah, I always let you know why and what I edited from your post while giving you multiple warnings... that some people have told me were threats or that I was abusing my moderator power. But what does it really take before some people learn to be civil. What should I say to members before they realize they are in shaky waters ??? I have made mistakes and I have appologized when I was wrong. No we are not GODS just MODS !
Everyone is talking about the House and Russ situation... Ok heres my take so far and this might change but I doubt it. First of all RUSS is not a MOD even though his business partner is and has no influence over the site. PERIOD. House (Jimbo) is a MOD and was one way before he became a vendor. Jim has been with the site since inception. He does not run the site and has to abide by the same rules as the rest of us here INCLUDING the MODS. He does not make policy! Every MOD can see what all the other MODS do on the site including deleting, editing and whatever else happens on the board. I have edited Jim, Deanos and Rich just to name a few. I have been overridden on a few occasions by the staff and Josh too. So there is no reason to think that being a MOD/Vendor has any advantages over any other person on the board. As for conflict of interest, for me the only way for it to be a conflict of interest for Jim to be a MOD is if he had more power over what he moderated. That would be a conflict. He has none and never will have none since Josh and Trana are the only site administrators for the site.
More membership does bring in alot of situations that might need to be addressed faster and that groundwork has to be made first. This is still a fairly new site and the system that has been put in place were FRIENDLY RULES that we made up based upon the situations on hand at that time. We have never banned anyone from the site before but Ronen just happened to be first.. He might not be the last. I am sure Ronen isn't going anywhere. He has made alot of new friends here that will last through this ordeal.
I would hope that through all of this no one will try throwing gasoline on the flames before things really can be changed so that this does not happen in the future or that it will be handeled better. Dont blame Josh for doing what he thought was the best thing for the community and the site at the time.
This is a donation ran and operated site (thats what was truly implied by not for profit) which most of the membership does not do The banner ads contribute to the operation of the site. Any extra usually goes towards the frag swaps which arent cheap and any extra things Josh hooks us up with. This is a love thing with Josh so lets start showing him some.
Everything will work out as everyone gets a chance to input thier thoughts as to how to make this the best Reefing site online...
Best wishes and Happy Father's Day to everyone,
Kasei
Moderator (and no it does not say it under my name) sheesh
That was not the purpose of the thread. Josh explained the reason he posted this. I dont think the outcome of the posting is not exactly what I thought he expected either. But to say the least, I think some positive thoughts have come out of it either way. I like some of the suggestions brought up here and it sounds like the membership does too. I think that the MODS and Josh will be getting a chance to figure out what the best direction the site should be going in without changing the way we treat each other here.
I am a friend of Ronen's and I have talked to him about the situation. Yes he is a good person, yes he does help the community with great products at great prices. But.. he can also be a pain in the ass
I told him so, so dont get bent out of shape. He knew what was going to happen when this was coming to a head so dont think that this was a sudden "get Ronen" thing.The MODS were in constant contact with him trying to resolve the issues presented before them. They (I) understood Ronens frustration about the undercutting of his products by certain individual here on the site (which I thing is crappy). Things got out of hand, words were exchanged before clearer heads prevailed and this was the outcome.
I also want to address this problem too... No we are not children here but that does not mean you have to use profanity to get your point across to someone. Dont PM or email me with alot of profane language and expect anything from me (this is a personal peeve with me). The same way you expect someone to treat you is the same way you should treat others. Yes we all use some kind of language around our friends that other might be construed to be rude, but in communication with individuals in a serious manner, use the correct language in order to be taken seriously and prevent the afformentioned problems.
I introduced alot of people to this site WAY... before I was made a MOD. Things HAVE changed here since that time. It was more of a family/friendly atmosphere then. But we used to have only MAX 100 members. We weren't open to the outside world then. Most of the members at that time had either come to my home or I to thiers. Things change. More members means more problems. The in-fighting and bickering needs to stop. Oh yeah, I always let you know why and what I edited from your post while giving you multiple warnings...
that some people have told me were threats or that I was abusing my moderator power. But what does it really take before some people learn to be civil. What should I say to members before they realize they are in shaky waters ??? I have made mistakes and I have appologized when I was wrong. No we are not GODS just MODS ! Everyone is talking about the House and Russ situation... Ok heres my take so far and this might change but I doubt it. First of all RUSS is not a MOD even though his business partner is and has no influence over the site. PERIOD. House (Jimbo) is a MOD and was one way before he became a vendor. Jim has been with the site since inception. He does not run the site and has to abide by the same rules as the rest of us here INCLUDING the MODS. He does not make policy! Every MOD can see what all the other MODS do on the site including deleting, editing and whatever else happens on the board. I have edited Jim, Deanos and Rich just to name a few. I have been overridden on a few occasions by the staff and Josh too. So there is no reason to think that being a MOD/Vendor has any advantages over any other person on the board. As for conflict of interest, for me the only way for it to be a conflict of interest for Jim to be a MOD is if he had more power over what he moderated. That would be a conflict. He has none and never will have none since Josh and Trana are the only site administrators for the site.
More membership does bring in alot of situations that might need to be addressed faster and that groundwork has to be made first. This is still a fairly new site and the system that has been put in place were FRIENDLY RULES that we made up based upon the situations on hand at that time. We have never banned anyone from the site before but Ronen just happened to be first.. He might not be the last. I am sure Ronen isn't going anywhere. He has made alot of new friends here that will last through this ordeal.
I would hope that through all of this no one will try throwing gasoline on the flames before things really can be changed so that this does not happen in the future or that it will be handeled better. Dont blame Josh for doing what he thought was the best thing for the community and the site at the time.
This is a donation ran and operated site (thats what was truly implied by not for profit) which most of the membership does not do
The banner ads contribute to the operation of the site. Any extra usually goes towards the frag swaps which arent cheap and any extra things Josh hooks us up with. This is a love thing with Josh so lets start showing him some.Everything will work out as everyone gets a chance to input thier thoughts as to how to make this the best Reefing site online...
Best wishes and Happy Father's Day to everyone,
Kasei
Moderator (and no it does not say it under my name) sheesh
- Location
- Brooklyn, NY
i feel my post should be deleted after read and that this thread closes with psuedo's post being the last...very well expressed and a fitting end to all of this....
ty K
ty K
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