Bye Bye Skimmer, Hello Canister Filter

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Read up, great article! http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

Hey Reefingkeeping.com is no way near the knowledge of MR and the authors are not as good as members here plus the pics are all photocoped and the charted data is all wrong-Vodka dosing never work even for the very tiny bit!!! :tongue1::tongue1::tongue1:

I am just messing around, guys.

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Do you have any requests for pics of my tank? I was just going to take some pics of my rocks to show some of the algae on them.

I was also going to take some pics of my canister when I cleaned it out the first time.

Here are some pic from right after I set up the 55G.

http://johnstires.com/fixing-an-aquarium-leak/302

There are also some pics of my 33G that had the leak. This move was done March 29th. I haven't done a water change since and the algae problem has still been improving.

As for what i keep, I have a pretty basic setup or run of the mill softies, xenia, zoos, LPS and SPS. Fish include 2 clowns, 2 sharknose gobies, a cardinalfish, and a pink spotted goby. I just pulled out 2 yellow clown gobies who were irritating my sps. Those guys were a bad bad impulse buy from Petco. I rarely make a move like that without researching something, but they were paired really cute and in the only healthy tank in Petco. Anyways, they were annexed to my 5G nano. that is skimmerless and I do nothing to it exept transfer water between it and my 55G.

After things settle from my move i plan to get some more fish for the 55G

Now i see what you will still be keeping about the change.

Once again, your blog has taste.

 

[waltercat]

Interesting article, thanks for sharing.

 

[HHaase]

My main tank is filled with biological filtration, I'm not sure this would be the case.

Different situation though, not all biological filtration is the same.

The canister is a constant flow aerobic situation, which heavily favors the nitrite to nitrate conversion. When you pull the water through the media it utilizes the surface area much more efficiently and has a much higher bacterial concentration. It's the same situation that you see occur with a sponge filter, fluidized sand or an undergravel filter. The water movement, combined with the available surface area, and trapping detrius as food is tremendously effective at breeding and retaining bacteria.

Your sand bed and rock don't have anywhere near the water flow going through them except at their surface. They also don't have the density of detrius to feed the bacteria that a canister traps. So their aerobic colonies are going to be less densely populater and less well fed. What the live rock and deep sand are there for is to fuel anaerobic bacteria, which converts the nitrates to nitrogen gas. But anaerobic bacteria isn't anywhere near as effective at converting the ammonia and nitrites.

So the canister is going to be processing the majority of your aerobic bio-load, and when you lose that bacteria you are going to spike ammonia and nitrites initially. I've run canisters for a long time in freshwater, and every time I was too aggressive in cleaning it I always saw ammonia spikes. It recovers quickly, but then you're back to fueling the nitrate conversion again.

There's really no way around it with a canister filter. If you're going to use it for mechanical filtration effetively, you're going to be generating a lot of nitrates. Pull that mechanical media out, and you're also eliminating most of the bio-filtration. This leave the canister only performing water movement and chemical filtration, both of which are more effectively done with other methods.

-Hans

 

[ReeferMadness99]

Canister filtration is essentially suppose to be for freshwater and saltwater FO systems where nitrate levels can be higher. Bioballs and ceramic media is grounds for breeding bacteria because the are detritus traps. Aerobic Bacteria reproduce from ammonia and nitrites and that is what canister filters provide them. Unfortunately, it will provide it for your tank too and that is not what coral reefs want. IMO, the best way to go is no sand, heavy flow, keeping all detritus in the water column and lifted out by a protein skimmer. You are basically harvesting detritus for your water column with a canister. Think about it, you can't clean out your media every hour, every day or maybe every week. There will always be decay sitting in there. The skimmer pulls the organic matter out of the water. Thats why reefs work better with them. Good luck in your trials!

 

[waltercat]

But if I remove all the waste from the canister filter when i clean it then there is no large bioload to have to break down.

 

[CHEMCHEF]

I think that is part of the problem. It sounds like everyone is saying. It will basicly be Re-Cycling every time you change or clean media. But I'm no Syentyst. Obviously.:lol::chefico:

 

[ReeferMadness99]

The thing to keep in mind is your tank is always naturally going to be at equilibrium. It is producing enough ammonia to support the bacteria pop, and nitrites, and the end product is nitrate. If you clean the canister too much, you will be constantly throwing that equilibrium into flux. Constantly putting your system back to recycling. I've had it happen. You get ammonia spikes, bacterial blooms, I lost 15 out of 19 African cichlids because I was too diligent in cleaning. A canister filter is meant to house bacteria hence it needs to have detritus breaking down in it to feed them. That is why most advice is to get rid of bioballs and ceramic media from reef tanks. You don't want bacterial breeding grounds that require ammonia and nitrite and produces nitrates.

Plus, my point is you can't clean it fast enough to keep it completely waste clean. Its a never ending flow of nitrates coming from it. I think you will see your algae blooms worsen if anything.

 

[HHaase]

But if I remove all the waste from the canister filter when i clean it then there is no large bioload to have to break down.

You will be removing the particulate matter big enough for the media to catch, but only the stuff that actually gets to the filter. A lot will not be caught in there. Whatever settles inside the tank won't be caught in the filter. Neither will stuff too small for the filter to catch, nor will any liquid contaminants such as the uric acid that fish release or the toxins that coral release. (Uric acid is almost pure ammonia, as is the pee from most animals.)

And when you do clean out the canister, you're going to be removing all the bacteria from it as well. So up goes your ammonia levels until the bacteria recovers.

-Hans

 

[isakofyork001]

We've been running a cascade 1200 canister on a 75 gallon reef (soft corals only) for about two years, last year we added a refugium under the tank as well. In the canister we run activated charcoal, lots and lots of 100 micron filter pads which I buy in sheets and cut to size, and we have the ability to add any other filter media to the canister (such as phosban or any other). We are hardly "regular" about changing our filter media, unless you consider regular as about once every four to five months. Our soft corals and anemones do fantastic, especially when you consider that our water comes straight from the bathtub faucet (NO RO or RO/DI). I do have some algae growth on the glass and to keep it clear I scrape the glass every other day or so (not sure how often everyone else does that. Regular water changes of about 10 gallons every few weeks keep all the nitrates and phosphates in check.

 

[ReeferMadness99]

Nice tank. But from what I can see, your entire right side is covered in algae. You ask how often I have to scrape my glass for algae? Never. There is no algae growth at all in my tank. That is the way a reef tank is suppose to be. The only reason why you would have algae is because of nutrients (nitrates & phosphates) in the water. Your getting nitrates from Canister and Phosphates from your Bathtub. Thats why your have algae growth. Also, unfortunately, I don't think SPS will grow very well in that environment.

 

[CHEMCHEF]

Do you mean to tell us. That you dont own a mag float to clean your glass. If this is true, you have Magic Glass. I, and every single person I know cleans algae from the glass. I personally clean my glass every other day!! I dont think that is out of the ordinary at all.
I also think that the algae you are seeing is on his glass. not in the on the rock or sand. Maybe I am Wrong But that is the way it looks in the pic.

Nice tank. But from what I can see, your entire right side is covered in algae. You ask how often I have to scrape my glass for algae? Never. There is no algae growth at all in my tank. That is the way a reef tank is suppose to be. The only reason why you would have algae is because of nutrients (nitrates & phosphates) in the water. Your getting nitrates from Canister and Phosphates from your Bathtub. Thats why your have algae growth. Also, unfortunately, I don't think SPS will grow very well in that environment.

 

[ReeferMadness99]

I have to clean detritus and debris from my glass everyday. I never have to scrape any green hair algae, bubble algae, etc... The algae in the pic looks distictively bright green.

Plus, I run my 250W HQI from 10am to 9pm everyday.

Vodka dose Chef...its calling...

 

[Deanos]

:lol2:

 

[lindsay]

Hi all great thread,i ran a 125 gallon sps system in the shop some 4 years back that did have a sump but no skimmer and a small amount of carbon.The fish stocking levels were very low at only 7 fish ,ie 4 small fish a copperband and two tangs.This tank had 10 to 15% water changes done weekly and all ran great for longer than a year and a half.However the tank was also fed phyto grown by a person who had phd,s in algae,s and supplied a bad batch of phyto to us.The result of this was a few losses and 6 to 8 weeks of unhappy recovering acros ,montys and other sps.The thing is accidents happen but i cant help but think that had we had a skimmer on the tank at the time of adding the phyto things may not have been so bad ,we added a skimmer to the system the day after the phyto upset the system.For me a skimmer is also a good insurance policy against accidents like the one we had.

 

[NYreefNoob]

reefer i think you need to go and read and really understand what carbon dosing is and does before you recommend other's to do it. not grinding you about it, but this is a very accurate system in dosing and ect. vodka does not kill algea, it starves it out. it does alot more as well, i quit vodka dosing and went with the brightwell aquatics biofuel, it's a wider source of carbon.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/

 

[CHEMCHEF]

I'm a little afraid to dose vodka. I Currently run an Aquac urchin skimmer. I have read, and read, and, read some more about V- dosing. Everthing I read Says that you should be running a really good skimmer. The urchin work by injection, not drawing air. (Big bubbles as opposed to Small or Tiny bubbles). I dont think it qualifies as a really good skimmer. It skims very wet. So right now I am going to err on the side of caution.
Plus NYreefnoob Has SCARED me to death, in numerous threads, that I have not read enough LOL.

I have to clean detritus and debris from my glass everyday. I never have to scrape any green hair algae, bubble algae, etc... The algae in the pic looks distictively bright green.

Plus, I run my 250W HQI from 10am to 9pm everyday.

Vodka dose Chef...its calling...

 

[NYreefNoob]

not trying to scare anyone, but this isn't like ey i am going to try a new light or new skimmer, ect, this can crash your system and i spent 6 mnths reading and talking with guys on rc, including one of the authors on the link i provided, i dose aa's nightly and a different mix and types to keep my sps colors glowing, my tank maintanence is on top also as well as all my equip, skimmer way bigger then i need ect. ive got way too much $$ in my little box to see it gone in a day

 

[SevTT]

I second most of what Tosiek said except I think the filter sock does not apply to your case since it looks as if you are running sumpless and I wonder how one would implement a filter sock in display tank.

Hrm. Stick it in a canister filter without the media? Might require some minor replumbing...

 

[ReeferMadness99]

NY reef noob before I retort to your criticism of my posts, please refer to the post #60 I made on page 6 of this thread...feel dumb yet? I mean, did you even read my posts? I never said anything about Vodka killing algae. Matter of fact, I posted the same exact article you just did earlier. Please don't insinuate the incompetence of others when you clearly have not closely paid attention to what they said. I stated that introducing an organic carbon promotes a controlled bacterial bloom which uses nitrates and phosphates for cellular reproduction hence dropping your Nitrates and Phosphates to near 0 readings. That in turn is why there is no algae. I mean really, are you skimming through every other paragraph in my posts or something?

I also clearly warned that you must have a finely tuned and efficiently running skimmer to remove this bacteria. Plus I even gave the suggestive advice NOT to dose at critical mass and to cut back on the dosage amounts. Smaller doses will eventually give you the same result but create less of a melt down risk.

Please don't make it sound like I'm telling people to do reckless things without knowing what I'm talking about. Its quite insulting.