Letter to Paul Holthus

[Nancy Swart]

Mixing cyanide caught with MAC certified does not make a person lacking in moral character, Steve. No matter how hard you once again try to get me to understand what you REALLY meant, you're still publicly stabbing your own members in the back in my eyes.

Nuf said...I'll probably get censored again if I continue.

NS

 

[flameangel1]

James, ,

It is easy for you to say "Yes" but that goes against conventional "business rules" which would demand that you fight to keep your competitive edge.

It may go against business rules, as you say-but- For Mary, Steve, myself (probably more out there also )- ETHICS are more important than money !!!!!
One needs to be able to sleep at night ..

 

[Anonymous]

Mixing cyanide caught with MAC certified does not make a person lacking in moral character, Steve. No matter how hard you once again try to get me to understand what you REALLY meant, you're still publicly stabbing your own members in the back in my eyes.

Nuf said...I'll probably get censored again if I continue.

NS

Nancy- i do wish you'ld explain your point of view, especially that sentence. (no- this is not meant as a critique or attack on your opinion)

but- if the act of 'just mixing' stuff doesn't say anything to you about character, consider this:

cyanide, even if the fish survives it's exposure- KILLS THE REEFS!

doesn't that make anyone who traffics in cyanide caught anything,knowingly, mixing or no mixing, a worthles scumbag(sorry-i had to use a strong term here),if they're contributing to the raping of the corals to make their living?

are you saying that a slash and burn farmer is equally moral to one who practices sustainable renewable crop growing/cultivation practices?

i'm abit confused, and curious to hear your tack on this

and -nothing personal :wink:

 

[flameangel1]

Nancy,,

Going balistic every time we ask a question

Please understand that some of us have been involved in this whole cyanide mess and what goes on in this industry, for many, many, many years.
We get extremely frustrated when we are expected to have patience and "be nice" when it is what we have been hearing for so many years, but little has changed !!!!
The same questions- same "be nice" attitudes and I understand completely how Steve feels and actually, I applaud his patience !!!!!!!!
What I am hearing/reading on this forum, is what John Tullock heard and read ,about 15 years ago !!!!!!! I remember listening to him talk just like Steve is now !!! He got burned out and I wonder that Steve hasnt yet also. So please understand how frustrated he feels ..

 

[Nancy Swart]

Vitz,

I am totally against cyanide. My point was that you can have poor business ethics but that doesn't necessarily make you immoral. OK so it's a matter of semantics but this is the Internet remember.

If these people are mixing the fish, then their certificates should be pulled. But from what I understand, this isn't happening and this is what Mary's been trying to tell us. In addition, the initial reference was to MAC "dealers". Some of these are also AMDA certified shops so what does this say about being an AMDA certified dealer?

Judy, frustration over answering the same questions over and over and over is part of the job description of being a Moderator, prolific public poster, or head of a NPO. When burnout, total frustration or lack of patience occurs, one needs to chill, take a break, and come back.

Would you like a teacher in your kid's school to react this way when the same questions are asked over and over?

NS

 

[MaryHM]

If these people are mixing the fish, then their certificates should be pulled. But from what I understand, this isn't happening and this is what Mary's been trying to tell us

Nancy,
I only know of one certified Philippine exporter that refuses to mix fish. The others do. And any certified importer or retailer can/is doing it as well. This is allowed under the MAC standards. MAC certified companies can have both MAC certified and uncertified fish. In fact, MAC acknowledges that because of the infintesimal fish supply that it is a necessary part of doing business to mix fish. This is why the fish supply should have been MAC's #1 priority before they ever certified a soul.

 

[MaryHM]

And one more thing, I think we can all agree that being an AMDA store doesn't mean diddly-do. Anyone with $50 can be an AMDA member.

 

[flameangel1]

.

Would you like a teacher in your kid's school to react this way when the same questions are asked over and over?

It is hardly the same comparison here. Steve, Mary, John T, myself, many , and many others, are Very passionate about seeing this whole cyanide/Mac certification, etc.etc.etc mess cleaned up. OVER YEARS !!!!!!! Some have been working on this EVERY DAY for those years also !!!
And yet they still keep TRYING to fix things. We have all heard the "patience and it will get better soon" crap for just soooooo long.
And if we just have "patience and be nice" , it will NEVER get better soon!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Anonymous]

does anyone here remember the late Don Dewey's (fama editor) editorials about cyanide, his intent to publish a 'blacklist' of exporters, and the resulting death threats he recieved, and wrote about, in the early '80's?

 

[flameangel1]

Vitz,,
I dont remember that , but thank you for posting about it. It may help others who are reading this forum, to KNOW that this "fight" has been going on for soooo long.
I know many on here do not realize this and have only just become aware of the problems.

 

[naesco]

Cyanide Detection Testing.
So, after all those years of hard work, why have you failed?

 

[flameangel1]

naesco,
There is far more to this cyanide problem , than just the test.
Too few people who really are passionate about it, nowhere near enough money to work with, nowhere near enough industry/hobby support, too many "pencil pushers" who do not even know what they are writing about--the list goes on and on and the destruction of miles of coral reef goes on and on also.



,

 

[Anonymous]

Cyanide Detection Testing.
So, after all those years of hard work, why have you failed?

naesco- do you really have a grasp of the scope and extent of the problem?

politics,mafia, corruption, greed, are all playing an integral part, here.

how simple an issue do you think it is?

how easy do you really think it is to fix?

i've stopped commenting on the subject, for the most part, because i've realized what a heroic and time consuming effort all these fine people have made/are making, while i'm just putzing along as an lfs employee

i'm truly humbled by the cojones these folks have, and your apparently naivete based cheerleading is, quite frankly, beginning to get on my nerves :x


i have'nt done anything to help contribute to the solution, really- aside from the teeny tiny miniscule role of hobbyist educator/fishroom caregiver-

but at least i don't keep harping on such an oversimplification of the issues, while tooting someone else's (as yet unproven, as well) horn. :wink:

now let's hear another 'yay mac and the imminent cdt' cheer one more time, eh?

nothing personal-but it's getting almost as old as the cyanide problem

oops sorry-that's impossible-the cyanide issue is around 30 yrs. old, AT LEAST-my guess is probably 40+yrs old, or longer

holy crap! that makes it as old as me :wink: (or older)

do you think it's so easy to truly fix, when one needs to find political, socioeconomic, and other solutions to a very deep and complex problem?

wake up!!!!

just my absolutely personal $0.02

 

[Anonymous]

Why is it that everytime someone posts a view that desents from the 'holy and approved ones' here in the industry forum they are accused of being pro-cyanide?

I don't know of anyone that frequents this forum that doesn't agree that cyanide is bad and that its use is must be stopped.

 

[JennM]

Holy crap has this thread gone crazy!

To answer a question posed after my last post - why don't I name names and "out" the wholesaler(s)? HELLO..... I don't have untold thousands to defend myself in a defamation law suit. After all, 'everybody' sells 'only' net-caught fish, right? My opinion on dyed glassfish notwithstanding, I don't believe there is a law against it - so who am I to judge? I take the measures I can with my buying dollar - but I'm not going to ruin myself by inviting litigation.

Nancy Wrote:

My point was that you can have poor business ethics but that doesn't necessarily make you immoral.

Nothing personal, Nancy, but I've read this sentence about 10 times and I'm still shaking my head... So I can knowingly screw my customers but that doesn't mean I'm doing anything wrong? Come on -- that's a direct contradiction, not a semantics issue.

There are so many posts in this thread I want to reply to, but I don't think I have it in me to revisit each post.

I agree with Mary that a MAC certification appears to be validation for SOP in the industry.... I haven't seen any changes from the big boys - but then I don't buy from them anymore either.

What "edge" will wholesalers like Steve and Mary have, if all fish are net-caught? Well I can pick up the phone and TALK to Mary, or Steve and discuss my order. With *** and *** I have to speak to a sales rep. Some of the reps are great folks - don't get me wrong, but as the OWNER of my company, I like to speak with the owner of the company I'm dealing with - I feel there is much better communication, more personal service, and I'm not just an account with a sales amount in the last year, to determine how far down the food chain I will be when the good stuff is being distributed. I actually had my account with a large LA wholesaler, transferred to a "new" guy when the "old" guy was fired, and the new guy didn't know fish or corals at all - he was "just" a salesman. I ordered a Yellow-Eye tang (aka Kole tang) I got a Yellow Tang. He asked me what kind of coral a Candy Coral was, hard or soft? That's when I asked for and got a new rep, but alas, that rep, whom I am fairly well aquainted with, and respect, has yet to receive an order from me..... sorry, that just put me off. I LIKE getting the service I get with the small mom & pop outfits. That will not change even if every fish that is imported is caught with nets.

NGO versus Business - this keeps coming up. NGO feeds from the public teat - since I am a taxpayer, and the NGO eats up some of my hard earned tax dollars, I, and every taxpayer has a right to scrutinize. Businesses are privately owned and operated and unless somebody has iron-clad proof that a business or its operator is doing something illegal, one has to be very careful about what is said, or risk being sued.

Sometimes I get the feeling that the bickering on here stems less from opinions pro and con- MAC and more from personal pissing contests, but hey - that's just my opinion about that......

So many hobbyists are short sighted. At last night's reef club meeting, there was discussion about a local school who was soliciting donations from the club for their reef tank - and the net fund also was mentioned (we do not have any money designated for charities yet, so the discussion was informational only). The club VP actually said that he thought that a school tank in a suburb WAY south of the city would have MORE inpact on the hobby than a donation to the netting fund!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I politely interjected that a donation to the netting fund would have a huge impact not JUST locally, but it would have a wider local effect than a fish tank in a classroom where no club member goes to school...... makes me realize that we have a long way to go to make the average hobbyist understand what the issues really are, and what can be done.

I keep seeing posts about needing more funding for this, more funding for that -- I donated to Mary's net fund because I believe that the money will make a difference - to the DIVERS, not to pay the salary some spin doctor in a suit who lives in the 'burbs and who draws a salary to make us all feel warm and fuzzy. Throwing money at a problem won't fix it. Directing the money to those who can make the changes will go a hell of a lot farther than creating a sea of paperwork and red tape. To quote the Nike commercial, "Just DO IT".

I could go on and on (or did I go on and on?) but I've got work to do...

It's now June 11. 4 days til the MAC CDT should be implemented. I can't wait

Jenn

 

[mkirda]

Why is it that everytime someone posts a view that desents from the 'holy and approved ones' here in the industry forum they are accused of being pro-cyanide?

I don't know of anyone that frequents this forum that doesn't agree that cyanide is bad and that its use is must be stopped.

Sardonic,

Go meet Kalkbreath sometime...

Anyone who is pro-status quo is in essence, pro-business as usual. IOW, Pro-cyanide. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Sometimes I get the feeling that the bickering on here stems less from opinions pro and con- MAC and more from personal pissing contests, but hey - that's just my opinion about that......

I've said the same in many off-line discussions.

So many hobbyists are short sighted.

So many people in general are short sighted.

I keep seeing posts about needing more funding for this, more funding for that -- I donated to Mary's net fund because I believe that the money will make a difference - to the DIVERS, not to pay the salary some spin doctor in a suit who lives in the 'burbs and who draws a salary to make us all feel warm and fuzzy. Throwing money at a problem won't fix it. Directing the money to those who can make the changes will go a hell of a lot farther than creating a sea of paperwork and red tape. To quote the Nike commercial, "Just DO IT".

Jenn,

I both agree and disagree.

There do exist NGOs that do fight the good fight, and spend the larger portion of their revenues in the field rather than in administration. The trick is finding them, and funding them, rather than the top-heavy, fuzzy-feeling ones...

There are ways of helping. Right now, AMDA is asking for cash for nets and trainings. AMDA will help supply the parts for barrier nets, which is a different sort of material than what Mary's net fund drive was for. Steve has made it his mission that 100% of the money donated to AMDA for their netting drive be spent on materials and trainings, with zero going for administration. You cannot ask for a better funding ratio than this...

There will likely be other opportunities as well. I'm trying to look into this myself right now.
You can rest assured that I will inform this forum on what I find.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

It may go against business rules, as you say-but- For Mary, Steve, myself (probably more out there also )- ETHICS are more important than money !!!!!
One needs to be able to sleep at night ..

I'm against cyanide and all that, but I just wanted to comment on the last sentence there...

I'd rather be sleeping in a nice bed, in a nice house, than be sleeping in a cardboard box in an alleyway outside..because I stood up for a certain code of ethics.

If it comes to a choice between making a living and making an ethical statement, then I'll be making a living.

I have no other option there. I have to support myself...and the marine business is a huge part in getting me the money I need to live. I can't afford to make decisions like you guys do, because it would cost me too much money.

All I do is what I can...I carry ORA's fish, I try and order fish from known cyanide-free zones like Australia and the Red Sea, and I educate my customers about cyanide fishing and what it does. I teach how to frag corals and how to be a responsible reef-keeper while creating a low-impact on the reefs of the world. However, if a customer wants a Blueface Angel, I will not turn him away. I'll try and get one for him as soon as I can before he goes someplace else.

Peace,

Chip

 

[JennM]

Mike Kirda said:

Go meet Kalkbreath sometime...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

He was very quiet when I met him. Didn't have much to say at all. He's just down the road from me.

Many folks behave differently in person, than they do online.

Jenn

 

[MaryHM]

Forgive me for straying back to the topic....

Attention Paying Customer Kylen

Have you received a response yet from Mr. Holthus?