Letter to Paul Holthus

[JennM]

I'd rather be sleeping in a nice bed, in a nice house, than be sleeping in a cardboard box in an alleyway outside..because I stood up for a certain code of ethics.

If it comes to a choice between making a living and making an ethical statement, then I'll be making a living.

I have no other option there. I have to support myself...and the marine business is a huge part in getting me the money I need to live. I can't afford to make decisions like you guys do, because it would cost me too much money.

Peace,

Chip

I guess everybody has a threshold, and a price.

There is always the option of not being in the business at all. There are other options to "making a living" that do not include selectively putting blinders on when somebody dangles a dollar... When that customer wants that Blueface, do you TELL him/her that odds are it's been juiced, and do they still want the fish? If you DO, and they still want it anyway, then the customer is as much to blame as the seller - but that doesn't let you off the hook

Chip, I'm not bashing you. I understand what you are saying, we all need to support ourselves and our families, but nothing worthwhile is easy. Until that way of thinking changes on a larger scale, reform isn't going to be a priority to anybody, because there is always a back door. If the majority of sellers hold the same attitude, then it will always be OK.

Just YESTERDAY I had a customer ask me about a Blue Face. Said he'd seen one someplace, could I get him one? I said, yes, but it might take some time. He knows why. He has been around the hobby for a long time. He could rush out and get one elsewhere, but he does not know how it was collected. He's willing to wait on one that we can be reasonably certain is caught without cyanide. No I have no guarantees, but given my current suppliers and my experiences with them, I am confident that the quality I can provide is well worth any wait.

With that, I can make an honest dollar and sleep at night.

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

Many folks behave differently in person, than they do online. Jenn

Ain't that the truth.

 

[mkirda]

I guess everybody has a threshold, and a price.

That is completely unfair, Jenn.

If you wanted to offer advice, you could, without the guilt trip. Actually, you did give a great example (Just YESTERDAY...). That would have been enough. Lead by example.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[JennM]

I am leading by example.

 

[clarionreef]

Jenn,
You go girl.
I'd rather see the actions of three people then the "support" of 20.
Just what is "support" if not followed by behavioral change or anything concrete? Claiming to 'SUPPORT" the net training movement while buying cyanide fish are mutually deleting.
Anyone can "support" this thing but very very really support it with their daily choices. Right now, buying only net caught fish is a radical act...hopefully soon it will not be.
Thank you Jenn for your bonafide support.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I guess everybody has a threshold, and a price.

I'm sorry that I do. I like doing something I enjoy, and working with these animals is something I'd be doing at home anyway, so why not get paid to do it? That's why I'm in the business. I enjoy it. I open my shipments each week and it's like Christmas morning for me. I love seeing different animals, and sharing the joy I get with my customers...people who have a similar passion for it.

There is always the option of not being in the business at all. There are other options to "making a living" that do not include selectively putting blinders on when somebody dangles a dollar... When that customer wants that Blueface, do you TELL him/her that odds are it's been juiced, and do they still want the fish? If you DO, and they still want it anyway, then the customer is as much to blame as the seller - but that doesn't let you off the hook

I was remiss in not clarifying this. This is exactly what I do. I educate my customers which species are cyanide-targets, and most of the time I ask them to reconsider their choices, offering different fish of similar coloration. If they are adamant, then I try my best to satisfy the non-cyanide choice. However, my ultimate goal is to satisfy every customer so I can maximize my profits.

Chip, I'm not bashing you. I understand what you are saying, we all need to support ourselves and our families, but nothing worthwhile is easy. Until that way of thinking changes on a larger scale, reform isn't going to be a priority to anybody, because there is always a back door. If the majority of sellers hold the same attitude, then it will always be OK.

I know you're not bashing me. I like you, Jenn, and I know you wouldn't do that. All I'm saying is that I'm in this hobby because I love it. I know more about this issue than anyone I work with, as well as any person that comes into my store or any other store in within 100 miles of me. I educate everyone as best I can, helping them to make choices that help the cause. When no other option is available, however, I have to make my customers happy.

One note I should add is that I work for the owners of the store, and I don't own the store myself.

Just YESTERDAY I had a customer ask me about a Blue Face. Said he'd seen one someplace, could I get him one? I said, yes, but it might take some time. He knows why. He has been around the hobby for a long time. He could rush out and get one elsewhere, but he does not know how it was collected. He's willing to wait on one that we can be reasonably certain is caught without cyanide. No I have no guarantees, but given my current suppliers and my experiences with them, I am confident that the quality I can provide is well worth any wait.

Yes, this is also what I attempt to do with each customer.

With that, I can make an honest dollar and sleep at night.

I can't sleep at night, but that's for reasons unrelated to this board and reefkeeping.

Peace,

Chip

 

[JennM]

Thanks, Chip - I'm glad you are hearing me as I intended. I also realize that you are not the owner, and therefore don't have as much discretion as I do, in the decisions that are made.

However, it CAN be done the right way. I too, can get a clean Blue Face - but I just might have to wait a bit for it - or I might get lucky and it's on the next stocklist from X or Y whom I buy from. If somebody is THAT impatient that they can't wait for the right specimen to come along, they are: A) in the wrong hobby, and B) all the education in the world was lost on them.

I still maintain that if more people really and TRULY put their money where their mouth is, and if people who have had their heads in the sand for all these years, would wake up and smell the toast burning -- reform would be much easier to achieve, because market pressure from within would necessitate the changes. It's amazing what people can do when the chips are down, and it does not always take an NGO to do it.

Jenn

 

[Nancy Swart]

Jenn,

Refresh my memory. Didn't you once tell us that without your husband's "real job income", you couldn't make a living from the shop alone? The point being you can afford to have higher ethics/morals than some others.

I'm NOT defending cyanide dealers but sometimes our actions are a result of desperation to support our families.

NS

 

[JennM]

Yes, Nancy, you are right. Without my husband paying the bills, I would not have been able to do this at all, no matter where I buy my fish, or how they are caught. After only 13 months in business, I'm turning the financial corner. (knock on wood...) I also didn't go up to my eyeballs in debt to do this. I started this place on a shoestring with about 1/3 of the money that Bob Fenner suggests on his website, that a place such as this one needs to do it right. I lucked in and bought used equipment and tightened my belt when I needed to, and I've pumped every dime back into operating costs and improvements (Just bought some sweet light fixtures for my SPS tank, instead of taking some pay...). My choice, and all done with a business plan and a budget that enabled me to do this. My finances are really nobody's business but my own, but I chose to get into the business, to try to do it right, and yeah - make some sacrifices. I don't know too many new startups in ANY industry that don't have the same money issues that I have. Do you? Please do not confuse the issue of doing business in the marine trade the right way, and any way, with how the finances work. It does not cost me any extra to buy fish from what I consider to be a clean wholesaler, or one that I consider not to be - in fact, it's a darned good business decision to buy from whence I do, because the mortality rate is much, much, much lower, so less of my money ends up in the trash can. I don't think it's a coincidence that my numbers are looking better when I'm not plucking dead bodies out of my system every day. If business people in this industry can't see beyond the money factor, they'd be wise to look at just the DOA/DAA financial reasons to change their ways.... Unless they bank on people buying the same fish 5 times because the first 4 died.... :roll:

I watched somebody else in this industry live out of the cash register during their shop's infancy, and he didn't last very long. I've seen folks in other lines of work make the same mistake - the video store that set up shop next to me when I opened went bust in December. If you fail to plan, you plan to fail. Setting up this business was a long term investment for me and for my family. Any business is, or at least it should be. It certainly wasn't a "get rich quick" scheme as I've seen some try to do in this industry. It is definitely my intention to turn a profit, there is nothing evil or wrong about that, but at the same time, if I can't do it the right way, I'd best just shut the doors now. There is no reason to believe that there is any sacrifice in profit by buying healthy, ethically captured fish. I can't figure out why there would even be a comparison drawn?

Jenn

 

[JennM]

Jenn,

I'm NOT defending cyanide dealers but sometimes our actions are a result of desperation to support our families.

NS

One more thing... on one hand I can't entirely disagree with your statement above. There are some parts of the world where the collectors are coerced and forced to use the juice (or at least to buy it), or their fish will not be bought by the exporters. This is a fact as it has been relayed to me and others here on this forum, by people who have experienced and witnessed it. It is not meant to be a condescention, but in places where fishing is the only way to make a living and support a family, I would concur that this statement is valid.

However, here, in North America, as marine retailers, we have choices. Nobody forces anybody to work in a LFS to support themselves. That's a career choice, and there are lots of other options available here. Nobody forces anybody in the business to buy bad fish over good fish. The excuse that "if I don't order the juiced fish for the customer, somebody else will" is a cop-out. You can't use the "everybody's doing it" way of thinking to salve a conscience. Ignorance only goes so far -- "I didn't know"... well here we do know. Educating hobbyists about the destruction that cyanide causes, and then turning around and knowingly ordering a fish that was probably caught inappropriately really sends a mixed message: "It's bad, it's wrong, but if you insist, I'll do it anyway."

No wonder the reform movement has spun its wheels for so many years.

Jenn

 

[MaryHM]

The excuse that "if I don't order the juiced fish for the customer, somebody else will" is a cop-out. You can't use the "everybody's doing it" way of thinking to salve a conscience. Ignorance only goes so far -- "I didn't know"... well here we do know. Educating hobbyists about the destruction that cyanide causes, and then turning around and knowingly ordering a fish that was probably caught inappropriately really sends a mixed message: "It's bad, it's wrong, but if you insist, I'll do it anyway."

AMEN and AMEN again!! It's this talk the talk but not walk the walk attitude that has allowed these problems to perpetuate and grow over the past 3-4 decades. If the people who know better can't take a stand for the betterment of the industry and the reefs, then who will??

 

[Nancy Swart]

Jenn & Mary,

With all due respect since I admire you both for what you're trying to do...do you really think every person running a LFS is as educated and informed as you both are about the cyanide issue??? Do many of them even know a reform movement is in the works???

The ETHICAL business decisions you've made are based on the information and education you've received AND from your participation here. The point being some of these dealers may not be intentionally "immoral" as you put it. I, for one, didn't realize cyanide was still a major issue until I started following this forum again. Heck...serious work on that problem was started in the late 80's early 90's so I thought it was a done deal.

Jenn, you did your homework and you make sure you stay informed. You are also very fortunate to have the time to follow all the boards on a daily basis. Good for you but please don't call the guy who may not know any better immoral.

As an example, some of our MASNA members don't have Internet access. Some are dealers. Do you think they'd be intentionally selling juiced fish if they had the opportunity/time to follow this forum daily or if there was an adequate supply of CLEAN fish???

My point is, don't be so quick to make generalized judgmental statements.

NS

 

[clarionreef]

self deleted

 

[JennM]

"Officer, I did not know the speed limit was 45, therefore I cannot be guilty of speeding at 65..."

I have a customer who sells paper, tape and plastic products. We moved his tank last weekend. He looked at my fish bags - "What are they, 2 mm? How many do you buy and how much do you pay?"

Larry knows everything there is to know about plastic bags, post-it notes and packing tape. His business is successful and he just built a new building to house it, because the mortgage on the building was less than the rent it would take for 3 units at his old location.

Yeah, I stay current because this IS my business. It is in the best interest of my business to inform myself. Ditto for anybody in the same shoes as me. I learned about the issues in the mid 80s from the owner of the store I used to (edit) shop (edit) at. If a dealer doesn't know what is going on, they are deliberately not seeing it. I'm not talking about the kid who scrubs tanks for minimum wage, I'm talking about the people who risk their money and their livelihood on this business - if they don't inform themselves about the reality of this business, they aren't doing themselves or their customers any justice.

I know lots of owner/operators who lurk on these forums. They just don't post. I don't know what they do with their knowledge - that is not for me to say. All I know is what I do in my own business.

I can't imagine why anybody with a stake in this industry wouldn't know or want to know what was going on. Business 101.

 

[Nancy Swart]

I know lots of owner/operators who lurk on these forums. They just don't post.

Could it be fear of being flamed for asking a simple question? Nah...

 

[JennM]

Perhaps. Could be a lot of reasons. One I spoke with just shook his head and said that he can't be bothered to respond, although he bothers enough to read.

I don't believe I've flamed anyone - most people here are civil most of the time, except when presented with blatently offensive ideas. There's a big difference between challenging somebody's post and flaming - but then sometimes the perspective that the reader takes is not always the perspective of the poster. Depends on where the reader sits in relation to the issue sometimes, I think. In this thread, I challenged Chip's rationalization based on what he said in his post, and according to his reply, he "heard" me in the context that I offered my response. I'm glad of that - and I counted on that because my reply might have been misconstrued by somebody who didn't know me, and my intentions.

I can't help but wonder, Nancy, given the amount of time and effort that you yourself have given to the education of hobbyists and the industry, why you are so fast to excuse ignorance and apathy? You've donated countless hours of your time and money to MASNA, to further education and enlightenment. Doesn't it bug the heck out of you that folks still stick their heads in the sand?

Respectfully, as always......

Jenn

 

[MaryHM]

Nancy,

Now hold on a minute. You are accusing me of saying all stores dealing with cyanide caught fish are immoral. I never said that. This is where trouble on these boards start- from people misinterpreting what others say. I specifically said that people who know there is a problem and choose to ignore it are the biggest part of the problem. In fact, I put KNOW in bold print. I will assume we're talking about this based on what Chip (Marillion) said. He stated that he knows about cyanide but will bring in a fish he knows is juiced anyway. I think that is a huge problem. Don't you? The problem of the uneducated masses is completely different than the problem of the people who know better but still support the cyanide trade.

Nancy, there aren't a lot of flames on this forum. In fact, I'd say we get less in here than in the general forum. There are a lot of very passionate people here who are very adamant about their opinions, but rarely is there a direct flame.

And lastly, as a former President of the only organization for the US hobbyists, how in the world could you think the cyanide problem was a done deal? You have been aware of my reefsource website for a few years at least and the information has been there. Do you think I've just been making all of this stuff up???

 

[mkirda]

how in the world could you think the cyanide problem was a done deal? You have been aware of my reefsource website for a few years at least and the information has been there. Do you think I've just been making all of this stuff up???

Mary,

Many people who have been in the hobby for a long time have assumed that the problem was solved. Heck, I was one of them until I happened onto this forum last fall... In deciding to look into it when I was in the Philippines, I had no idea, literally, how bad the problem really was. Granted, I am a self-confessed coral geek, and could really care less about fish, so it is quite possible I wasn't really paying attention until then. I hardly think that I am atypical here. It is just difficult to get this sort of information in front of people so that they will actually pay attention, especially when they are trying so hard to find that Southdown sand or arguing over MH light bulbs...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

<sigh>

Of course there are lots of people who have no clue. Hello!! I've only been out there beating my head against a wall for the past 4 years trying to reach them. My last comment to Nancy was how can the former President of the only hobby organization not know.

 

[Nancy Swart]

"Doesn't it bug the heck out of you that folks still stick their heads in the sand?"

Yes it does, Jenn. What has always bothered me the MOST is the phone calls and emails from newbies who can't keep anything alive but who refuse to buy a book because they won't spend the $50.00 or take the time to read it!!!

I always have to take a deep breath and count to ten before I can calmly continue talking with these people. I have a balistic, Type "A" personality so this takes an enormous amount of self-control. BUT by the end of our talk, 99% of the time I've talked them into buying a book.

Do you think it would be incentive for them to buy a book if I go balistic or treat them in a condescending manner?

This is the point I've been trying to make to Steve and others. People stop listening when all they hear is shouting or criticism or what is PERCEIVED in cyberland as such because we can't see their facial expressions.

I've continued to do this because of my passion for helping to educate newbies the same as you'll always continue to patiently answer your customers' questions. However, this is my last of 10 years as a volunteer. Somebody PLEASE tape a "Just Say No" sign on my forehead at our meeting in Louisville.

NS