Letter to Paul Holthus

[mkirda]

<sigh>

Of course there are lots of people who have no clue. Hello!! I've only been out there beating my head against a wall for the past 4 years trying to reach them. My last comment to Nancy was how can the former President of the only hobby organization not know.

Mary,

Why would it surprise you? You know that every single exporter claims that all of their fish are net-caught.
Can you blame people for taking them at their word?
If it were the US, those companies would have been put out of business (most likely) by the US government.
It is difficult those who have not travelled in the third world to understand that the rest of the planet is not really like the US...

Hopefully the article I am working on about the collectors in Coron will have enough of an impact that people will at least think a bit before buying their next fish.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

Mike, are you even listening to me?? SHEESH. Nancy is the former president of MASNA. She's not talking to exporters/wholesalers who are telling her all their fish are net caught. If nothing else, she's known about me and what I do for at least 3 years. She also has stated that she has been a "staunch MAC supporter since the beginning". How do you staunchly support something but don't even know what they are trying to do? Why would MAC be trying to eradicate cyanide use if it was a non-issue? I'm trying to get answers from Nancy Swart to these questions, Mike. I'm not addressing the general public here.

I am now slowly rocking myself back and forth in a fetal postion, saying "Yes. It's all worth it. It mustbe all worth it." 8O

 

[Nancy Swart]

Mary,

I'm sorry you interpreted what I said about generalized judgmental statements as being directed toward you personally. It wasn't my intention but I apologize anyway. I was trying to use that same collective "you" Mike referred to. My mistake was in addressing the message to you and Jenn. I should've addressed it to all.

Yes, I was aware of cyanide but had no idea of the enormous scope or details of the problem until I came back to this forum.

Yes, I've been to your website several times over the years but what always hit my tired old eyeballs first was a glaring MAC-related headline. Since I already knew what you thought about MAC, I rarely took the time to read the articles. I don't have the time or the patience to read every page on every hobby-related site.

I guess I was just too ignorant to be MASNA Prez, eh?

NS

 

[Nancy Swart]

How do you staunchly support something but don't even know what they are trying to do?

I was hearing the POSITIVE side of what they're trying to do from John Brandt and was trying to give MAC time to fix the problems. Knowing that a major personality conflict existed between you and Paul made it difficult to stay objective.

While I now have a better understanding of your concerns, I still would like to give MAC more time to fix the flaws since I think we finally have their attention. Does this now make me a bad guy?

NS

 

[JennM]

While I now have a better understanding of your concerns, I still would like to give MAC more time to fix the flaws since I think we finally have their attention. Does this now make me a bad guy?

NS

While this comment was more or less directed toward Mary (but not solely to her I'm guessing...) I'd like to offer my opinion on this.

No, it doesn't make you a "bad guy". Perhaps you are just more patient than I am. However the lack of planning and and accountability to the issues that are currently facing MAC and their way of dealing (or not dealing) with them doesn't instill much faith, from where I stand, anyway. In short, I'm not holding my breath. Neither are many others.

The CDT was supposed to be in place on May 30. That was pushed back to June 15. I can understand that - stuff happens. However that test should have been in place BEFORE certifications began, OR MAC should have qualified its certifications as "pilot" certifications or something to that effect. They did not. They are selling the real deal without having the correct checks and balances in place. The average hobbyist who is blissfully unaware that cyanide is a problem is going to be even less cogniscent that certified organisms don't have any testing behind them to prove that they are any better than non-certified ones.

The start of this thread was a letter to Paul Holthus asking for some accountability. To date the questions have not been answered, and were even dismissed by John as not coming from a 'paying customer' (I'd like to believe that was simply John's personal opinion and not MAC's opinion, although MAC has not addressed the questions yet, so it gives one pause to wonder just what the entity's position on all this is...). The questions were then repeated by a certified "paying customer" of MAC, and they still have not been answered. Any answer - even one that said they don't have the answers, would have been better than nothing.... but the silence is deafening.

How much more time does MAC need? Now the issue of misrepresentation is rearing its head as anticipated, and still nothing is being done about that. That's an easy one to fix, we've even offered some suggestions here, but nothing is done.

Instead of standing around waiting for somebody else to fix the industry, some of us are taking upon ourselves, what we can to fix our own little piece of it.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Chip (Marillion) said. He stated that he knows about cyanide but will bring in a fish he knows is juiced anyway. I think that is a huge problem. Don't you?

Not when it's two or three fish a year, Mary. And that's *if* they're juiced, which no-one knows for certain because there's no cyanide test in place. Plus, when you paraphrase it like that, it makes me sound far far worse than I stated my situation was.

Plus, isn't it possible to get a fish from Indonesia or the Philippines that's *not* juiced?

I am not the problem. 98% of the stores out there are far worse than I am...

Peace,

Chip

 

[dizzy]

Instead of standing around waiting for somebody else to fix the industry, some of us are taking upon ourselves, what we can to fix our own little piece of it.
Jenn

That's right Jenn and I hope you got the AMDA mailing address off the sticky John posted.

 

[JennM]

That's right Jenn and I hope you got the AMDA mailing address off the sticky John posted.

Why? I gave at the office.



Jenn

 

[MaryHM]

I'm taking a deep breath. I don't know what's going on in here today, but it's sheer insanity.

How do you staunchly support something but don't even know what they are trying to do?


I was hearing the POSITIVE side of what they're trying to do from John Brandt and was trying to give MAC time to fix the problems.

Nancy, MAC has been griping about the cyanide problem and how it needs to be fixed. If you say you staunchly supported them, didn't you know that one of their main goals was to fix the cyanide problem? Why would they be doing this if the problem had already been fixed??

Knowing that a major personality conflict existed between you and Paul made it difficult to stay objective.

My god. Do you really think I'm so mentally unstable that I would spend thousands upon countless thousands of hours attacking MAC because of some personality conflict with Paul?? You mean to tell me that because Paul and I aren't best friends that nothing I had to say could possibly be taken seriously, have any merit, or even warrant a read through?? If am am that ridiculous, petty, and mentally sick, then why you have supported my work on other projects is beyond me. If I thought someone was that insane, I wouldn't touch anything they did with a ten foot pole.

Now I'll turn my wrath on Chip :twisted:

Not when it's two or three fish a year, Mary.

You know what? If every store in the country says "Hey, it's only two or three fish a year" that adds up to a lot of fish. And I highly doubt you are only bringing in 2 or 3 cyanide target species per year.

Plus, isn't it possible to get a fish from Indonesia or the Philippines that's *not* juiced?

Sure. Stick with gobies and blennys. But if you're talking cyanide target species (let's use your Blue Face Angel example), then not really. From the Philippines, yes. In extremely limited amounts from the 2-3 net caught only exporters. Not enough that they're going to show up on any old importer's stocklist. From Indonesia, nope. That country is way worse off than the Philippines when it comes to cyanide use. To my knowledge there isn't even one net caught only exporter there.

I am not the problem.

No, Chip. You are not the problem. But you readily admitted that you are part of the problem. It's not like I'm outting you here. You're the one who said you'll sell what you have to sell to make a living.

 

[naesco]

Cyanide Detection Testing.
So, after all those years of hard work, why have you failed?

naesco- do you really have a grasp of the scope and extent of the problem?

politics,mafia, corruption, greed, are all playing an integral part, here.

how simple an issue do you think it is?

how easy do you really think it is to fix?

i've stopped commenting on the subject, for the most part, because i've realized what a heroic and time consuming effort all these fine people have made/are making, while i'm just putzing along as an lfs employee

i'm truly humbled by the cojones these folks have, and your apparently naivete based cheerleading is, quite frankly, beginning to get on my nerves :x


i have'nt done anything to help contribute to the solution, really- aside from the teeny tiny miniscule role of hobbyist educator/fishroom caregiver-

but at least i don't keep harping on such an oversimplification of the issues, while tooting someone else's (as yet unproven, as well) horn. :wink:

now let's hear another 'yay mac and the imminent cdt' cheer one more time, eh?

nothing personal-but it's getting almost as old as the cyanide problem

oops sorry-that's impossible-the cyanide issue is around 30 yrs. old, AT LEAST-my guess is probably 40+yrs old, or longer

holy crap! that makes it as old as me :wink: (or older)

do you think it's so easy to truly fix, when one needs to find political, socioeconomic, and other solutions to a very deep and complex problem?

wake up!!!!

just my absolutely personal $0.02

So you have tried and you have failed, huh. Why not give MAC a chance, huh?

You have read MAC`s committment to the CDT which I understand will be implemented shortly, huh. There you go both words in on sentence.
I support MAC because they are the only viable organization to see the CDT to implementation. Is there someone else that I don`t know about, huh?

If I am wrong and MAC does not carry through on their promise I will post that I have been naive, wrong, oversimplifying issues and apologise for annoying you.

 

[Anonymous]

Now I'll turn my wrath on Chip :twisted:

Go right ahead, Mary. I handled my ex-fiancee...I can handle you.

You know what? If every store in the country says "Hey, it's only two or three fish a year" that adds up to a lot of fish. And I highly doubt you are only bringing in 2 or 3 cyanide target species per year.

I'm not every store in the country. I'm my own entity, and what I said applies to me only. How can you say that 100% of your fish are cyanide-free? Ultimately, there's no way of knowing...too much trust in people is involved, and people can't be trusted. Period.

Sure. Stick with gobies and blennys. But if you're talking cyanide target species (let's use your Blue Face Angel example), then not really. From the Philippines, yes. In extremely limited amounts from the 2-3 net caught only exporters. Not enough that they're going to show up on any old importer's stocklist. From Indonesia, nope. That country is way worse off than the Philippines when it comes to cyanide use. To my knowledge there isn't even one net caught only exporter there.

Well, that's fine. You know of these things far more than I do. When there's a choice, I pick the road less likely to be caught with cyanide. Most retailers don't know nor care, I'm sure.

No, Chip. You are not the problem. But you readily admitted that you are part of the problem. It's not like I'm outting you here. You're the one who said you'll sell what you have to sell to make a living.

Yup, and I said that I was sorry that I had a limit to what action I could take. I'm sorry, but I have to work quite a bit to improve my life to a point where I overcome the guilt I have for messing up my past opportunities. Without a college degree, it's difficult to make a good living in my area. I need to take advantage of the knowledge I have, so I'm doing that.

I admit that I'm part of the problem, but it's an infantessimal part, and I do a whole hell of a lot more than 90% of the stores out there.

As I stated, I do what I can, but I can't do it all like you and the rest of the folks in here. That's what my point was. At least I'm here...

Peace,

Chip

 

[MaryHM]

How can you say that 100% of your fish are cyanide-free?

Never said that! But I have said that I do absolutely everything possible to make sure that I'm not getting a cyanide caught fish. I don't stock fish based on what my customers want (you've seen my lists). I base it on what I feel I can get that is net caught. Do you have any idea how tempting it is to buy cheap little baby clown triggers?? I have never had a clown trigger under 5" in my shop. EVER. It's a personal decision.

 

[flameangel1]

Jenn,

Nobody forces anybody to work in a LFS to support themselves. That's a career choice, and there are lots of other options available here. Nobody forces anybody in the business to buy bad fish over good fish. The excuse that "if I don't order the juiced fish for the customer, somebody else will" is a cop-out.

Glad someone finally said this here !!!!!
And you made some very good points about if we are in this industry, we SHOULD know what is going on in it . Both dealers and hobbyists!!!
I don't understand why anyone would not take the time to learn what they are interested in doing, anyway.

Mary, calm down !!! You know banging your head against that brick wall may stop hurting someday-right ???

Chip- nothing personal here, but "a little wrong is still wrong". right???

Naesco,
I wish life was as simple and straight forward as you see things.
Fixing things in a 1-2-3 -fashion would be easy--unfortunately when the reality is 123, it is not so easy!!!

 

[Anonymous]

Never said that! But I have said that I do absolutely everything possible to make sure that I'm not getting a cyanide caught fish. I don't stock fish based on what my customers want (you've seen my lists). I base it on what I feel I can get that is net caught. Do you have any idea how tempting it is to buy cheap little baby clown triggers?? I have never had a clown trigger under 5" in my shop. EVER. It's a personal decision.

I know that, and I respect you greatly for it. However, I am not in the same position you are...I simply cannot afford to lose the business by being 100% reformist in what I do. I have to answer to my bosses with good profits, and I have delivered without compromising greatly on the cyanide issue. They personally don't give a crap about it...they're struggling to make it in an area where there's not a lot of money to be had, and they could care less about what happens in other countries.

I do what I can to not only circumvent their attitude toward things, but to also try and grow my part of the business where it brings in the most money for the store. It's a difficult thing to do, but I'm proud of what I've accomplished with the little control I have.

Peace,

Chip

 

[kylen]

Mary,

No reply yet, but should have full or partial very soon :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Chip- nothing personal here, but "a little wrong is still wrong". right???

I never said I was right in bringing in even one cyanide-caught fish. I stated that I had shortcomings, but could not overcome each one.

I know it's wrong, flameangel, but I simply cannot eliminate that part 100% in the part of the business I'm responsibe for.

Peace,

Chip

 

[kylen]

...they're struggling to make it in an area where there's not a lot of money to be had, and they could care less about what happens in other countries. ...

That pretty much sums up the retail side, IMO. No offence to the LFS. Buy cheap to sell cheap.

 

[JennM]

They personally don't give a crap about it...they're struggling to make it in an area where there's not a lot of money to be had, and they could care less about what happens in other countries.

Peace,

Chip

Isn't it sad? I know that this isn't Chip's fault - but I couldn't stand it if my employer didn't know and didn't care (and again, that's not a shot against Chip).

By virtue of the fact that they profit from these other countries, they'd be smart to know what was going on and what is wrong in the industry....

Unbelievable

What's really sad is I know they aren't the only ones -- But seriously, I wonder if the majorty of owner/operators don't know, or just don't want to know?

Jenn

 

[dr_micah]

Suppose i were a healthy, daring, intelligent, and reliable individual, who wanted to become a specimen collector. i'm curious how i would get accepted into a training program, without relocated more than 1000 miles. I'm asking this here because i have this fantasy of being a collector "superhero" who not only uses nets proffesionally but fights the good fight against entities like mac and all those who contribute to the destruction of our precious reefs. 8)

 

[JennM]

Suppose i were a healthy, daring, intelligent, and reliable individual, who wanted to become a specimen collector. i'm curious how i would get accepted into a training program, without relocated more than 1000 miles. I'm asking this here because i have this fantasy of being a collector "superhero" who not only uses nets proffesionally but fights the good fight against entities like mac and all those who contribute to the destruction of our precious reefs. 8)

I cannot answer your question but I would like to point something out - MAC is not an evil entity that contributes to the destruction of the reefs - quite the contrary. They are ATTEMPTING to set up sustainable and humane collection practices. Where I, and others take issue is their way of going about setting it up, what they are presently selling as "certification" and the lack of checks and balances. I think their idea is a good one, I just don't see it working as it should just yet.

Perhaps Steve can answer the questions about training programs...

Jenn