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zbt

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Just my opinion again, JennM--I think if you set up some stunning display tanks with metal halides and tons of SPS corals and made a great display and then also carried a bunch of SPS, not just 2 colonies, then you would have a huge customer base for these corals. I guess its the chicken and egg question, but if you don't have the higher end equipment in stock you will not sell it. You can not sell out of an empty wagon!! Word gets around with hobbyists pretty fast and if they knew you carried the high end equipment and SPS corals they would come, why do you think they go online to get the stuff, the average LFS does not carry it. By high end, I mean a good selection, IN STOCK, of calcium reactors, metal halide fixtures and lamps, top quality skimmers and good pumps, etc. It is not good enough to me able to order it for someone, if they have to wait for you to order it then they will go online and get it faster and cheaper. I think it is all about: 1.)displaying something the hobbyist can aspire to create themselves--a really great SPS tank that appeals to the higher end hobbysist that is willing to spend the bucks and they do exist, 2.) have the stock for the buyer to get right then-- walk them through the set up and then when the tank is really ready they will come in and buy tons--its an impulse buy when the tank is ready they will come in and buy 2,3 or more corals at a time, and 3.) know what you are talking about--get educated on the high end SPS and the equipment and you would squash the market for that hobbyist to go online. If you don't have the SPS display and don't carry the lights and other equipment instock then you never even give a chance to appeal to a more high end hobbysist (= more income for you because they are bigger spenders in the long run, ask anyone that has a >75 gallon SPS tank and they will tell you they have $5000-$25,000 invested in their tanks--are they spending that with you or online??????). The reason that customer went on line is that he must not have been totally comfortable with your advise, maybe because he saw you did not really have experience with metal halides and the type of animals he was interestd in keeping, won't cut it with just a couple in stock in one small tank, you need big displays and a much bigger stock.

Again, this is just my opinion and experience based on years of driving around to many LFS--sometimes driving hours to get to a good store, I'm not picking on you JennM but you have perfectly illustrated why hobbysists go online, the LFS does not offer what they want. Offer mostly softies and a few other corals and fish only and that is what you appeal to--the El Cheapo hobbyists, SPS fanatics spend tons of $$ and will not go to your store because the word is out that you don't carry what they want, "I can get it" or "I can order it for them" is not good enough. I'll repeat again, you can't sell out of an empty wagon!! I go to one store that is a 3 hour drive one way and on Saturday they open their doors after having gotten a shipment of 25-50 or so Acros the night before and within literally 30-45 minutes they are sold out, no exagerration!! High end hobbyists like myself flock to the place but maybe pick up small incidentals at the local store that has one or 2 half dead Acros in stock and only stock PC lights--nobody flocking to this local place and the owner says he won't carry more because there is no demand---sound familiar?? What is that saying---build it and they will come, same holds true for corals and high end equipment---stock it and they will come, a couple of well placed ads in the Sunday paper and a few happy fanatics and the word will spread like wildfire. You've got to spend money it to make money--invest in your business more!
 

dizzy

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zbt,
You make some good points. I agree with you there is quite a bit stores can do to stop etail from stealing sales. It is easy to compete with etailers that sell cherry items high, easy that is if you can get the good stuff yourself. What you may not realize is that some of this stuff is limited in supply. The stores that spend the most money generally get the best pick. I don't see many wholesalers with large selections of sps coral colonies on their offering sheets. Perhaps it is good that not all stores are gifted at selling sps corals, or else we might have very serious supply and demand issues. Sometimes I wonder if too much growth in this hobby might turn out to be a bad thing. If you go back to post numero uno you will see there several other issues we need to discuss on how the internet is affecting our industry. I personally agree with zbt and Jenn that good stores do good business, and I don't think we all need to jump on the etail bandwagon. Why ship out the best stuff you get in when people will drive miles to buy it? Once they made the long trip they feel justified in spending quite a bit.

How many store owners tell their customers to go to these sites because they are a good source of information? What can we do to get more retailers to recommend sites like rdo?
 
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Anonymous

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jennm wrote:

but I haven't been able to find any qualified help at a reasonable wage.


i was wondering what 'qualified', and 'reasonable' are, according to you, jenn, and the other lfs owners here

i've yet to see an lfs offer a 'reasonable' wage for qualified (read knowledgable, and experienced) personnel, and i've seen most lfs's get exactly the qualifications they're wiilling to 'pay for', i.e., minimal :wink:
 

clarionreef

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Dizzy,
What ZBT did not mention is the retailer in question tranships in direct and has bag sales and low-balls these cites items out as if they were drygoods...quickly.
Devaluing and degrading cites corals in the flea-market style marketplace is common here in the SF Bay area also. The reasoning behind the low-ball approach is if it were not done this way...the corals would die as the skill involved in transhipping for the coral bazaar are not the skills it takes to keep corals for long.
Keeping corals well when not 'flea marketing' them involves more expense and expertise. The corals then tend not to be so cheap.
Ironically, the less skilled outfits often sell the most coral...simply because low metabolism coral lends itself to this kind of "dry goods" style marketing.
Market fever in deepwater Bali coral intensifies now as the corals become fewer and fewer. Its a slash and burn fishery that only finds a 'bit of class' in the end users fancy reef tank. It won't last long...but he doesn't know it nor care much about it.
There is an amazing lack of interest in the actual mechanics [and busting up of century old mother coral stands] of the coral trade. There is an expose there waiting to be written every bit as compelling as the cyanide story.
This defense of low ball coral rush fever is sad...and attracts the attention of non aquarium people who also care about the reefs...and want to close it down.
Those of us with the perspective of history on this know exactly where is going. The corals most coveted tend to grow slower, much slower then their extraction. They don't recover nearly as fast as fish do.
The 80's and 90's were the good ol days when supply was universal for all who wanted it. Now, its already a scramble with accelerated efforts to come up with what once took a fraction of the time and work.
All the coral geeks out there should bow down tonite and pray to Allah for Muslim Indonesias tolerance of this short term , unsustainable plunder to give you your red scolymias and green frogspawns. [ and the corrupt way in which CITES quotas are fabricated and allocated].
But hey...this is America , right? We'll buy anything, vanishing or not as long as its cheap enough. Buy em all!!! We'll sort it out later!
Steve
 

Kalkbreath

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Steve ,there is no busting up of centuy old mother coral from Bali. These coral are small intact corals...........The reason so few are comming in to the USA is not a shortage on the reefs .......its that there are so few CITES availibly from Bali ...{bout sixty a week for Acros}
 

zbt

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cotez marine,
Actually the retailer in question buys from one of you folks in LA--does not transship, and his prices are not low ball at all, in fact higher than the same corals can be bought online, just that he has a very nice set up, lots of cherry corals, he is very knowledgable and readily shares this info with hobbyists, and it is the only store anywhere in the general area that really caters to high end clients, aka SPS fanatics, so he attracts tons of SPS fanatics. Not only do these hobbyist buy out the SPS, again--not at cheap prices, but they also buy other livestock such as clams and dry goods too. This is not one of those sell out of the box type stores, just wanted to clarify that. I just wish there were more stores like this and closer to me! With all due respect, sounds like you need to take a break from the business for a while, you sound a bit bitter and burned out, just my humble opinion and no offense intended.

The LFS will never be able to compete with the low ball etailer, and why do it anyway and make only a few percent on your sales, why not go high end and make more profit per item and cater to a more sophisticated client that is more loyal because he has thousands invested into his tank already and will not likely tear it down on a whime.
 

zbt

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kalk,
Not sure your info is correct on Bali corals, the store I mentioned got 60 cultured bali Acros 2 weeks ago in one shipment and I doubt he is the only store in the US or world that is getting Bali corals, these were the cultured ones so I don't know if that is included in your CITES number. The owner told me that there is a limitless supply of these corals at this time, I though he was just boasting, but then I saw them with my own eyes, no mistaking them, they are Bali cultured corals--sure aren't the Fiji ones. Just FYI, FWIW.
 

dizzy

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zbt,
What part of the country are you in? About what size are these cultured colonies? How much are they selling for? How about posting a pix of a couple for us to see.
Mucho gracias,
Mitch
 
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Steve ,there is no busting up of centuy old mother coral from Bali.

Kalk, sure is easy for you to say that when you haven't been to Bali. Steve was just there diving with the villagers. You say, he SAW!!

cotez marine,
Actually the retailer in question buys from one of you folks in LA

ZBT, San Jose (SF Bay area = San Frnasisco bay area) is about 8 hours from Los Angeles.

Not sure your info is correct on Bali corals, the store I mentioned got 60 cultured bali Acros 2 weeks ago in one shipment and I doubt he is the only store in the US or world that is getting Bali corals, these were the cultured ones

Sounds like his "wholesaler" is fibbing on the origin then :D .

The owner told me that there is a limitless supply of these corals at this time, I though he was just boasting, but then I saw them with my own eyes, no mistaking them, they are Bali cultured corals--sure aren't the Fiji ones. Just FYI, FWIW.

Nothings limitless, especially coral!!! How do you, the hobbyist, know the origin of a coral or fish other then the "owner" telling you? Just curious.
 

zbt

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I guess everyone could be not telling the truth about the origin of the Bali corals, they do not look like the Fiji cultured--which he also gets, totally different species. I, the poor hapless hobbyist, suppose I have no clue compared to you guru industry types. Anyway, they are Bali corals, he gets those from a supplier in the Chicago area and the Fiji corals from the big guy in LA, you know who---I've seen the boxes they come in. He sells the Bali cultured, that are about 3-4 or so inches tall on manmade rock plugs like the Fiji ones but with the peg broken off, for around $150 each, seen them online, same species, for $100-$130. I'm sure the limitless comment by him was a bit of an exaggeration, but he gets 50-60 a week from what I saw and said right now they are plentiful. If I am not in line when he opens Saturday morning then they are pretty much gone within less than an hour. Anyhow, I have said my peace and don't have much more to offer on the subject, I think I need to step back into the lurking mode and let you guys do your jobs, just wish more LFS would get with it and do a better job at offering more than just some cheap Indo softies and the ocassional couple of half dead Acros. Also wish you folks in this forum would talk amoung yourselves more on this type of topic and give MAC and cyanide a rest for a little while. Peace be with you all, and good luck with your businesses--hope you are all successful in your own way/niche!
 

clarionreef

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Ahh,
The luxury of blissful detachment and pure mindless consumerism.
I envy your position of detachment.
It appears that everyone has set you straight before I could get back to a computer so I'd just like to thank you for setting Kalk straight about his info... cough....gossip...flow.
As far as taking your advice to refrain from trying to make anything better and more lasting in the world, I must decline. Just because you care for nothing beyond the self, doesn't mean everyone else does.
As I just dove Bali and saw one coral crater graveyard after another from selective busting and breaking of coral for the trade... I especially have a problem with the "don't worry, be selfish counsel you offer."
The coral question is a time bomb and the tightening of CITIES quotas [ lax as they are...] proves it.
Fragging and farming are the only future this trade has...pure and simple.
Steve
 

zbt

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cortez,
Thanks for the parting swipe. I'm just a hobbyist, your in the trade man, so do something about your passions and don't put me down as some detached boob. I buy a few corals now and then and was just telling you folks my experiences and opinions, I have little impact on the situation and don't give me some BS like if every hobbysist says the same then nothing changes. You guys are in the trade and run it, so stop your petty bickering in this forum and band together to do something real. Geez, go take a break cortez and don't put me down. Don't like the hobby/industry for what it is doing to reefs, then get out of the trade or do something real instead of trying to make me look like an idiot. You guys are a riot, you ARE the hobby, you control what comes in and what is sold and all you do is whine and blame the hobbyist--boy that gets a lot accomplished. Hope you felt better and saved the reef by calling me names cortez, your a real industry leader I can see that.
 

clarionreef

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ZBT,
We 'industry types' are in no way united. The reform wing is very small and not in much position to do much good when the hobbyists and their dealers care so little...beyond the buy and sell ethic.
I took offense to you lecturing me to care less, do less and give it all a break...especially the very issues that have been given a break for 30 years or so.
If the efforts to reform the trade bother you you don't have to access 'Industry behind the hobby' posts.
If the pleas to be more responsible are minimized as bickering and characterized as pointless, it is a serious insult to people of conscience.
I don't go over to the coral departments and lecture them on caring more. Don't come here and lecture us on caring less.
All of us who take so much off the reef should give something back I think. But then again, thats just an offbeat, minority opinion. I could be wrong.
I'm sure you care enough about coral reefs to want them to continue. Passion for the end product should eventually spill over to the mother reef I would hope. Hobbyists should be our very most concerned people about the state of the reefs...or at least one would think.
To find that this is not the case is sobering and gives pause for thought.
Steve
 
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I guess everyone could be not telling the truth about the origin of the Bali corals, they do not look like the Fiji cultured--which he also gets, totally different species. I, the poor hapless hobbyist, suppose I have no clue compared to you guru industry types. Anyway, they are Bali corals, he gets those from a supplier in the Chicago area and the Fiji corals from the big guy in LA, you know who---I've seen the boxes they come in. He sells the Bali cultured, that are about 3-4 or so inches tall on manmade rock plugs like the Fiji ones but with the peg broken off, for around $150 each, seen them online, same species, for $100-$130

Ah, makes sense.

get out of the trade or do something real

Wow, and you wonder why Steve is mad? Please define "something real", this really intrigues me.
 

jamesw

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I think the bali corals are coming from a farm or farms there that some frenchmen set up. Fabrice perhaps?

Cheers
James
 

Kalkbreath

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jamesw":18qblkmf said:
I think the bali corals are coming from a farm or farms there that some frenchmen set up. Fabrice perhaps?

Cheers
James
Actually the man is Swiss....He has around 50,000 corals ready now .BUT , there has been a problem with his being able to ship them out . For the last several months these cultured corals have been sent as Cites corals because he could not get a special export permit. One of the reasons more Bali corals are hitting the market this month, is that it is the new CITES quarter......They are permitted to export X number per quarter and seem to use up the quota during the first part of the quota. The live rock out of Bali is also some oft the most coveted in the business........But Airfreight is extremely tight out of Bali.....so the coral and fish get first dibs. I know because I sell many boxes of both every week.........This is a sample of what he is growing......Montipora Capricorn, deep water Acros and Awesome soft corals. ...............................With so many cultured coral coming out of Bali, Steve, is going to have an increasingly difficult time making up stories about the trade harming the reefs of Bali. I have seen hundreds of boxes this year and not one acro colony which was a broken Fragment.ONLY INTACT SMALL COLONIES.... With the exception of montipora Capricornus.......
 

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Anonymous

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Steve did mention that in the areas that have been converted in the last few years, are now full of perfect aquarium sized corals (regrowth) growing all over the dead skeletons. Kalk, cyanide is rampant in Indo, whether you believe it or not.
 
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Anonymous

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Man, I had to come back and look at that pic again. and ask, hundreads of boxes this year? You personally have seen hundreads of boxes of Bali this last month (year) alone?
 
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Anonymous

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I know because I sell many boxes of both every week.........This is a sample of what he is growing......Montipora Capricorn, deep water Acros and Awesome soft corals. ...............................With so many cultured coral coming out of Bali, Steve, is going to have an increasingly difficult time making up stories about the trade harming the reefs of Bali. I have seen hundreds of boxes this year and not one acro colony which was a broken Fragment.ONLY INTACT SMALL COLONIES.... With the exception of montipora Capricornus.......

How much is "many", 25 :roll: ?
 

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