The Clarions are coming.....

[danieldm]

Kalk-

In March of 2004 Craig told me all about their collecting expediton being headed for the Archipiélago de Revillagigedo. He told me all about being out there and having "navy" frogmen & special forces coming up around his boat. Basically he made it soude like he had been out there in person colecting at some time. For some reason I never connected it to the Mexican navy. He went as far as to tell me that their collection boat was run of because they were having war games out there, and that they had to go back a week or two later.

In the other thread Eric mentioned that I seem to oknow alot about the Clarions. I do...I was privy to a lot of stuff because Craig liked to brag. I just didn't know that much about the industry, or that they were illegal. In retrospect, man do I feel like an idiot.

 

[fishinchick]

Kalk, that link didn't work. Try again.

I was going to ask something but I can't remember where I read the article from so I'll just wait for a working link and be smug.

<--- me being smug.

 

[Kalkbreath]

http://www.ofish.org/data-area.asp?aid=9986&gid=4839

 

[dizzy]

"Anyway, thinking back, I did wonder if they were legal or not, but with all the hooplah and buzz that they were coming, I found it hard to believe that Craig would take such a risk. You should also know that I was the last to receive Clarions and I ended up getting the left-overs after Craig has already sold what he could. I was not really told too much before hand as I was not one of the company's that was pre-sold or given much advance notice. Only many emails from my international customers asking me about them because they had heard the fish were coming and like I had said over the years.....it's true when we seem them!"

Best regards

Eric

This almost sounds like Craig made you an offer you couldn't refuse. It almost seems like you were going to pass on them until the deal became so sweet, and the potential profits so high, that you decided to take the risk. I would think the first person to receive them would have a better claim to ignorance than the last one to purchase them, especially given the time line and all the internet blather. The fact is some of the other wholesalers also had an opportunity to buy some, but decided not to because they knew something was fishy. In the final analysis this is a Martha Stewart type incident. Your biggest mistake (here) was thinking you could fool industry insiders. You must be hanging out and partying with the MAMTI folks too much. Don't forget where you came from Bro.
Mitch

 

[JennM]

Eric said:

"Anyway, thinking back, I did wonder if they were legal or not, but with all the hooplah and buzz that they were coming, I found it hard to believe that Craig would take such a risk."

So just what was all the "buzz and hooplah"? Around these parts the buzz and hooplah was concern over the legality of importing these fish, and even specifically that they'd be brought in as Juv. Passers. Interesting that all that "buzz and hooplah" didn't seem to contain any doubt about the legitimacy of the paperwork on these? It was the first thing to set off an alarm bell here.

Hard to believe that a whole bunch of industry types would sit around buzzing and creating hooplah over a large shipment of some hard-to-get fish and not a one of them would consider that there was something shady going on. I was born at night - but not last night I don't think I'm alone either - and I'll be the first one to admit I know precious little about the importation process and all that, but even that raised a huge red flag with me at the time.

Eric also said:

Did I know the Clarions were coming in before hand? Yes.....I already told you that we were the last company to be sold Clarions. Everyone already had them and it was big news. We were the last ones. So yes, I knew they were available, but did not know they were illegal, nor do I believe anyone who did have them and listed them on their stocklist knew they were.....but actually, they weren't illegal.....only imported falsly on the import documents....so again....where did anyone do anything wrong.

I'd wait it out until I saw if there was fallout too, before I bought into it - let somebody else get busted As for where did anyone do anything wrong? Well apparently Craig Lightner did something wrong... and IMO if everyone he sold to had refused to purchase, his little plan would have backfired. He counted on many being greedy - and he gambled right - folks bought them. Score one for somebody being in tune with human nature.

You know - people make bad choices and mistakes all the time. However, I've learned (and my kids have learned) that the best way out of one of those mistakes or bad choices is to just fess up, apologize, make restitution and learn. That is what demonstrates character. Doesn't Dr. Laura call it the three "R's" or something? :lol: Repent, repair and don't repeat. We've all dissected this one right to death, for 2 years now, and I don't think anyone's opinion or impression has changed one iota from this time 2 years ago, yet the spin keeps going, as if we're all going to change our minds about thinking the worst of this situation and have an epiphany that nobody was at fault here except Craig - and he's being dealt with by the law. It's not even very good spin at that, since here we sit in our spare time, picking holes - and I'm very guilty of that Bad habit I need to work on I think...

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

It's not even very good spin at that, since here we sit in our spare time, picking holes - and I'm very guilty of that
Jenn

Jenn,
In fairness to Eric the spin may not be as bad as you suggest. He just happened to post it in a "No Spin Zone". I'm sure it would work fine at the Reef Check parties. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

:lol: I had no idea Bill's influence ran into RDO, well, other then the sump

 

[JennM]

"'Cause we're looking out for YOU"

Jenn

 

[danieldm]

Hard to believe that a whole bunch of industry types would sit around buzzing and creating hooplah over a large shipment of some hard-to-get fish and not a one of them would consider that there was something shady going on.

Dave stated that he knew they were illegal coming in and didn't touch them, and I'm sure others did as well. Funny thing is that Dave isn't even a customer/business associate of Craig's and he knew they were smuggled in. I know other people that Craig isn't in regular business with didn't get any (Quality, Aqua Marine, etc.). It's funny that the people that were closest to Craig, that had the most available info about his shady past were the ones with the Clarions.

I guess the old saying about laying with dogs holds true...but in this case you don't get fleas, you get Clarions.

 

[clarionreef]

That old article by Serafin [ a Mexico City importer ] was pretty much right on the mark...but totally weightless as far as government policy was concerned.
There have been dozens of meetings w/ Fisheries officials since and none referenced the article.
It was simply spun into PR by the people who wanted to believe that the National Park would relent based on market reason.

1st] its a national park where the fish came from ie. Socorro Island inside the Revillagegedo National Park.
2nd ] reason counts fo very little in the formulation of fishery policy in Mexico..and there sure were not ever issued exemptions to the total ban on commercial livestock extraction there.

Of course a lay article on a website ment nothing legal...nothing at all.
What counted was well placed bribe money plain and simple.
Steve
The collector of the fish was a collector of mine for 20 years in Loreto, Baja. He bought a car out of the episode and filled us in on the trip for hours.
We let him go in '99 for being incorrigible and in working with drug dealers.
He is lucky that he wasn't poaching in Komodo. They might have shot him!

 

[fishinchick]

I'll have to find it and I know it exists because I remember reading it; but I vaguely recall reading an article that said something about the Mexican Government being very angry at us for having those fish. In that article they were pissed that the 'collector' totally tore up the area that they were collected from and what we were going to do to fix the situation.

Did someone else read this or did I dream it? I can't find any refrence about it anywhere now but I can't imagine I would be clever enough to come up with something like that in my head.

Whatever it was, I knew they were illegal before they arrived because of that article and this thread. Not that it helps cuz I'm a nobody.

 

[Anonymous]

Not that it helps cuz I'm a nobody.

Hey...*I* think you're somebody!

Peace,

Chip

 

[Kalkbreath]

There is a Navel base in the natinal park?
They play war games in the national park?
The Clarions come up and feed out of your hands, What is there to tear up ?
Im missing something?

 

[clarionreef]

There is in fact a Navel base in the national park.
I've been there myself.
They intercept and deter drug dealers at sea and enforce the ban on commercial fishers who don't pay tribute.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

If the navy can cut bait clarions in their RR time, it seems fishing for Clarions in those waters isnt really really against the law.
I have this picture in my head of an American in the Navy jail for clarion fishing .........as the officers who arrested him, fish on the dock with the clarions they confiscated as bait?
Seems the law is a little as backwards.

Northern California's anglers can fish for leopard sharks and gut three them very day if they wish..
But put one in an aquarium and your a bad person doing time.

I watch the tourists trample the live coral in Bahai Honda national park , as they walk in the shallows .(you can actually hear the coral crunching as they walk)
Yet get caught with a small frag in your pocket and your causing irreparable harm to the ecosystem?

Yet these minor infractions are the issues we as an industry seem to gravitate to?
It seems we are more concerned about taking power away from each other
Then we are about inpowering each other to save our aquatic friends.

 

[IslandDiver]

Northern California's anglers can fish for leopard sharks and gut three them very day if they wish..
But put one in an aquarium and your a bad person doing time.

Actually, If I recall the DFG regs, you can have a leopard shark if it is over 36 inches. (Not very popular in most tanks) The intent was to stop those fisherman that were catching pregnant sharks and cutting the babies out of their bellies then dumping the carcasses overboard which washed up on shore and angered people. Similar to "finning" sharks.

On another note, Lightner wasn't importing his lepard sharks, he was catching them right off San Pedro with "fishing buddies" who had no idea what he was up to. His wife took the fall on that one.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Just because the party boats let the babies die inside the mother, its somehow less detrimental to the shark populations? Why is it all right to eat the adult sharks or to catch them for sport .......but not for husbandry?
Why not make the mother sharks off limits and the babies disposable?
Ninety percent of the shark babies will die from predators anyhow.
Its like making adult turtles all right to kill for sport, but take a baby seaturtle home to raise in an aquarium and your in jail?
If baby seaturtles were legal as pets the wild seaturtle population would increase ten fold in two years.
Take new born seaturtles home to raise and protect for one year .....then release them back into the wild.
There is a reason why so few babies reach adult hood and having human fosterparents would increase the percentage that make it to adult size.
Killing adult sharks on the end of a hook and placing people in jail for collecting babies is silly.
If someone collects and adult leopard shark (36"), trans ports it to an aquarium and lets the mother deliver its babies in captivity........would that count as captive raised pups? :wink:

 

[Vili_Shark]

I spoke with a couple of people who's been to Revillagigedos , and Im sure Mr.Robinson can write about his experience there.
I dont think there's much to "tore up the area" as it's kinda rocky area, but hey, why not??? it might help some of you guys to bash Eric a little more, now he might be responsible for tearing up the Revillagigedos!! go for it guys!

Marc Daniles you wrote:"It's funny that the people that were closest to Craig, that had the most available info about his shady past were the ones with the Clarions. "
Craig Lightner shady past??? didnt you mention you were his business partner at some point in the other thread? so you do business with the "shady past" guy? where does it put you then?
you wrote " I just didn't know that much about the industry, or that they were illegal"
So you were hangin out with Craig Lightner , you were going to SDC late at night (as you said), but you didnt know much about the industry...hmmmm....Im not blaming you for anything Marc Daniles, but it's just to show ya, that this under the belt critisism some of you guys are giving Eric , can go both ways, and that's without knowing any info about Marc Daniels' relationship with Craig Lightner.

Dizzy, JennM, Gresham go on with the bashing Eric competition , I starting to enjoy it especially with the :wink: :wink: it adds alot.
You just ignore one major fact, that he was invoiced as Clarions, and he issued invoices that PASSED F&WL as Clarions (for export).
Smuggled or not, this makes the deal legal.
But go on guys, dont let me interrupt ya!

Kalkbreath, what you say is right, and I know it makes no sense.
If you go to Thailand and try to take out Corals or Traidacna spp. you will be in a real trouble and a chance to visit the BKK "Hilton" (depends on the qtty).
But when you go south to the islands u can just break any coral head you want and put it as a decoration in your viranda, then go on in the water with the fishermans and consume as many Tridacnas as you can eat (raw), nobdoy will say anything, if you go to the market there's plenty of salt water fish, corals and clams (for aquariums) even though it's illegal to deal with them, it's still alright for the local market....but if they catch ya in the airport, you're in deep troubles.
Please dont start writing the "local can harvest" posts cause in many islands in south Thailand the only memories of Tridacnas are the ash trays, so obviously we're looking at over harvesting.

Same goes with Phillipines, go and buy as many Clams as you want in the local market dirt cheap, try to take them out?...you wont catch your flight.

 

[dizzy]

Vili Shark quote from another forum.
"Thats why I wrote "IF".
Anyway,I did my homework,I dont really care how the Clarion will come my way legalor not,since it is not an endangered species, and the ban of fishing Clarions is just a crazy goverement's worker idea,since they are in the 4 islands by the thousands if not more, so I dont really care.
The ban is not for Clarions, the ban is for fishing , still there are sports fishing boats all over the Revillagigedos( far enough from the navy).

Anyway, I should get myself a couple when these guys will be avileable next time,I wont do this effort for getting those kingis though. "





The attitude you express above is one of the problems with this industry. When the powers that be see quotes like that they feel little compassion for our hobby. If the hobby does get shut down we will have people like you to thank.

 

[Anonymous]

Just because the party boats let the babies die inside the mother, its somehow less detrimental to the shark populations? Why is it all right to eat the adult sharks or to catch them for sport .......but not for husbandry?
Why not make the mother sharks off limits and the babies disposable?
Ninety percent of the shark babies will die from predators anyhow.
Its like making adult turtles all right to kill for sport, but take a baby seaturtle home to raise in an aquarium and your in jail?
If baby seaturtles were legal as pets the wild seaturtle population would increase ten fold in two years.
Take new born seaturtles home to raise and protect for one year .....then release them back into the wild.
There is a reason why so few babies reach adult hood and having human fosterparents would increase the percentage that make it to adult size.
Killing adult sharks on the end of a hook and placing people in jail for collecting babies is silly.
If someone collects and adult leopard shark (36"), trans ports it to an aquarium and lets the mother deliver its babies in captivity........would that count as captive raised pups? :wink:

sharks have a very very slow reproductive rate, and find it much more difficult to 'recover' from population decimation-this is why collection/poaching is not only so strictly enforced against, and why they're still without a nearly strong enough law enforcement policy in effect to protect them


we have yet to find out the full ecological impact on the wholesale slaughter and decimation of the shark populations worldwide-i'm betting one of the consequences is an increase in fish diseases worldwide, as less and less apex predators are available to weed out the sick and infirm fish, leading to more and longer incubation periods of disases/parasites, just for starters.