The Clarions are coming.....

[Vili_Shark]

hahahahaha...Dizzy, you sure make me laugh man!!!

So you think the hobby might shut down cause of quotes from the forums?

Or you might think the hobby might shut down cause Clarion Angels? (which are NOT endangered indeed).

I guess if you really care about the hobby shutting down, at least partly, go to Indonesia and Phillipines.
And dont play like if you care for the hobby, all those posts were for bashing Eric and not for the hobby's sake so please dont give me this attitude.

 

[dizzy]

Read this report: http://www.icriforum.org/docs/Aqua-MCS-report.pdf

Here is a quote from around page 21 that is relevant to this topic. " An example where an endemic species suffered from over-collecting for the aquarium trade was in
the Revillagigedo Archipelago off Mexico’s Pacific coast. In the early 1990s the clarion angelfish,
Holacanthus clarionensis, was subjected to heavy, mostly ‘pirate’ collecting, from people coming
over from the USA in ‘sport fishing boats’. At least 1,000 individuals were being taken by each boat,
and fish numbers had decreased by up to 95% in some areas (Almenara-Roldan & Ketchum, 1994)."



The keeping of marine fish is more of a priviledge than a right. The greed and stupidity of a few could cost us all to lose that priviledge.
Mitch

 

[clarionreef]

Here is a quote from around page 21 that is relevant to this topic. " An example where an endemic species suffered from over-collecting for the aquarium trade was in
the Revillagigedo Archipelago off Mexico’s Pacific coast. In the early 1990s the clarion angelfish,
Holacanthus clarionensis, was subjected to heavy, mostly ‘pirate’ collecting, from people coming
over from the USA in ‘sport fishing boats’. At least 1,000 individuals were being taken by each boat, ...and fish numbers had decreased by up to 95% in some areas (Almenara-Roldan & Ketchum, 1994)."

Mitch,
It was sad to see Liz Wood refer to such off-based, anecdotal stuff as the report by guys who never did the work.
Roldan and ketcham never did a before and after analysis at all and simply produced an opinion from afar based on what they imagined the effect to be from collecting 1,000 fish per trip.
The damage was localized and was all from crowbars used by some of the knuckleheads busting pocillapora to get out the clarions.
Thankfully, the trips were few and far between by these guys and the areas not collected in were easily 95% of the one islands they went to....out of 3.
But, the alarmist style of the culled info...looked well alarming didn't it?
Steve

 

[dizzy]

Steve,
I realize this stuff does get overblown. There is no doubt about it. The point is that these incidents provide ammunition to the forces that would like to see the trade shutdown. And while some of us here can recognize the problems in the Woods Report, the overwhelming majority of those who read it will not. We (the trade) need to cover our ass by not partaking of forbidden fruits. Look what a mess Eve got us into.

 

[clarionreef]

I thought that Eves greatest legacy was the fig leaf...
But since Elizabeth has now dulled her reputation and senses farming out her credentials to the MAC benefit package...it fits.
Steve
a great deal of that report was a limited input book report and a compilation of selected gossip....not scientific in the least.

 

[Vili_Shark]

Dizzy,
Frankly speaking, Clarions got nothing to do to shutting down the industry.
If there are talks about shutting or better say slowing down, it is cause of over harvesting corals.
It is a main concern in both Europe and America and greatly discussed, so far I dont see they're doing anything.

If you're talking about how the forces who likes to see the trade shut down, they can have much better reasons for "busting" the industry, just few that pops into my mind without really putting any effort:
1. tons of corals shipped every week without a cites (not to america)
2. the cyanide in Indonesia and Phillipines that KILLS reefs.
3.Thousands of tons of Live and dry rocks shipped out of Fiji and Indonesia.

All the above have much greater impact on nature and on industry than your 500 Clarions fished in a place that did not have people fish(besides the local navy) in it for a couple of years earlier and none since...
The only fishing around these islands is made by Tuna sport fishing (and maybe commercial) which is not allowed and is happening in this very moment , as far as the Mexicans are concerened there is no difference between Tuna and Clarion.

 

[danieldm]

Vili_Shark-

I have been pretty up front in regards to my relationship with Craig. I have been a hobbyists for 10+ years, with much of that at the extreme advanced end of the hobby. I had a small web site that I was using to sale my corals...I had mroe than I could give away. Craig contacted me 12/2003 about doing a full blown mail order site. My background is in business, especially the technical realms. I helped him setup a mail order companys and it went from there. The second I found that Craig was involved in illegal operations, I pulled the plug on the company and cut of all contact with him. End or story.

You just ignore one major fact, that he was invoiced as Clarions, and he issued invoices that PASSED F&WL as Clarions (for export).
Smuggled or not, this makes the deal legal.

My understanding is that it was all the export Clarion certificates that made the F&WL curious since they never saw any come in. From the various posts in this thread, I think that most everyone's opinion in thsi thread is that Eric knew these were coming in, and/or at least knew that they had been smuggled in. In my opinion, and I want to make it perfectly clear that I have no evidence and that this is only my opinion, let's say that the F&WL had enough for a case against Eric. They most likley didn't pursue anything since he cooperated with them.

 

[Vili_Shark]

Hello Marc,
I have nothing personal against you, and I was not following the threads here, I read the two Clarions threads in one time about 10 days ago (+ earlier in 2004) and maybe cause I read it this way it looked like people here wants to "field court" Eric.
Things like "were you or were you not on Sunday night in your warehouse" , I mean we're talking 2 years ago, and getting down to FBI details.
Give the guy a break! especially when other people who have nothing to do with it, starting to post things like" yeah Eric you should have known".
Everybody're becoming judges and private investigators.

I mean if this guy was selling smuggled Clarions , would he declare them as Clarions in export papers and let F&WL sign and chop it?
He might as well put Passer Angel on the invoice and that's it, he's clean.
But it was invoiced Clarion to Eric so he invoiced it Clarion for export, all's Kosher.
Personally I dont think the Clarions export papers brought up the F&WL attention, I mean they were signing these papers every couple of days as quite a few Clarions found their way to Asia , if they had anything to say they could just not sign in and open the boxes, I think that some "good souls" who probably didnt get the Clarions for selling and report it to F&WL, the later is based on nothing just a guess from my side , but since I know for a fact that F&WL signed and chopped Clarion invoices on quite a few shipments so it makes sense.

 

[dizzy]

but since I know for a fact that F&WL signed and chopped Clarion invoices on quite a few shipments so it makes sense.

So just how many of the "questionable clarions" did you end up buying Vili? You know you sound a little like Hulk Hogan suggesting that Barry Bonds didn't cheat.

 

[Vili_Shark]

Unfortunately none.

But hey Dizzy, how come it got something to do with industry concern or nature concern?
For a second I thought you mean what you say about it all, but poooff it's gone.

Why cant you get it in your mind that whoever got the Clarions DID not offend the law, F&WL could have track down most of the Clarions to the end customers in and out of America and take them from their owners if they wanted to in case it was illegal, did they do it?
I dont think so.

Industry concern or nature concern got nothing to do with you, your primary target was Eric, now it shows for sure, I was mentioning some BIG issues about the industry and you didnt refer even one of them, just jumped back on the Clarions again, but hey, if Eric will have to do with any of the three issues I brought up, I bet you'll be #1 in sending post bashing Eric and it'll be a top concern for you.

I had a reason to see the invoices for Asia which had nothing to do with the Clarion investigation.

And about Barry Bonds, hahaha only in America, as well as people like you who obviously have motives against Eric and keep positng them without anybody stopping them.

 

[Vili_Shark]

Hey Dizzy
Are you the owner of Fishey Business?

 

[dizzy]

Yeah Vili, I own Fishey Business. I saw the Clarions show up on price lists some time ago. I didn't buy any because I felt something wasn't right. And you got it all wrong bro. I happen to like Eric. He's a very friendly and outgoing guy. I still buy the occasional order from SDC. But the fact is just because you like someone doesn't mean you cover for them under all circumstances. I don't think this whole Clarion thing is some huge crime against nature. You're right about other problems being worse. I don't think Eric runs a crooked operation either, and I'm not out to get him. In fact it pains me to say something negative about one of my suppliers. But I do think he should have stayed the hell away from the Clarions. And I think he had to know they were dirty. So how about we just let it drop.
Mitch

 

[danieldm]

Vili Shark-

I certainly have nothing against you either, and everyone has an opinion. Do I think that Eric Cohen is any different than other wholesale owners and industry insiders...certainly not. I know they are a lot of people that would do anything to make a dollar.

But this is at issue...Eric sits on the board of an ecologically minded organization that is supposed to be doing good and protecting our resources. He may be involved with other such organizations as well. I also hear rumor that he wants to run for president of the AMDA.

I think sitting on such a board, and aspiring to be a leader in other industry related areas, demands that the person is held to a higher standard than others within their chosen field. If Eric wants to promote industry change, and promote sustainable resources, and have the industry adhere to things like CITES quotas, and area collection laws, and on and on and on. Then he had better be walking the walk as well as talking the talk. He isn't.

Someone who took Clarions knowing that there was a decent chance that they were collected illegally and smuggled into the Country has no business, NONE WHAT SO EVER, sitting on the board of Reef Check, or running for president of the AMDA.

The very day that Eric comes out and says.."you know what. I am being evasive and trying to put a positive spin on a bad situation. I never should have gotten myself or my company into such a predicament. These are the new processes & procedures that SDC is incorporating in order to assure that this type of thing does not happen again. Along those lines, these are the ethics that I am suggesting that we as an industry adopt going forward and we will be the first to sign on". (or something similar)

That day, I will fully support Eric Cohen. If he desires to be more than an owner, and step up to industry leader, then he dam well needs to start acting the role.

 

[Vili_Shark]

Marc,
Putting it this way I partly agree with your last post.
I bet that next time somebody will offer Clarions, Eric will do better work on chcking if they are legit.

Dizzy,
Again, if the Industry Image + saving the reef is in your mind, that Clarion shipment is truely nothing compare to the 3 issues I brought up.
By the way, did you check where do you get your Red Sea Angels from?
Did you know that few months back many were illegal to export and still were exported? (Saudi)
Did it concern you then?
Dizzy, your avatar might contain illegal fish.

I can go on and on and on about it.

 

[dizzy]

Vili,
I got my pair of Regals back in 03. I think it's time to let the Clarion matter drop. They got the right guy behind bars. Let is go.

 

[clarionreef]

Villi,
Good points;
1. tons of corals shipped every week without a cites (not to America)
2. the cyanide in Indonesia and Phillipines that KILLS reefs.
3.Thousands of tons of Live and dry rocks shipped out of Fiji and Indonesia.

Far, far more significant and the players far more culpable in the demise of the industrys image and chances to survive without increasingly severe repression, regulation, over-regulation, bogus science woven in with legitamite science and phoney environmentalism mixed in with the genuine.
Steve
Villi,
Don't you think that the penny wise pound foolish rule applies because its easier to rally people to simple, symbolic, knee-jerk causes rather then the more complicated.

 

[clarionreef]

Mitch,
Be careful about the "slippery slope" of seeking out reputable dealers;
We are like a cocaine trade... with some of us nicer then the rest....
but still...the crimes done in our name and against our name....
witting or unwitting still implicate us to varying degrees.
This trade comes to us from historical dictatorships where unethical and unsustainable practices have been the norm for the entire duration of this hobby.
What I hate about it the most is how easily the environmental sector has generally sided with our trades darker side and against our industries better side.
My profound and well thought out anger against this syndrome arises from the knowledge that the sell out has derailed the sustainability movement for 20 years now and lost us critical time to get it right.
The buy-out of the environmental movement thru the control of the coveted funding agencies insures that this movement will remain primarily focused on generating tax exempt shelters for billionaires instead of saving coral reefs.
Clearly, if saving coral reefs were the issue, we would discard failed remedies and strategies as the crisis in the oceans mount.

Steve