Etail/AMDA

[aquatic ian]

apologies for the off topic drift

Mitch,
As the cyanide trade used to be an exclusively Indo pacific one...Americans, Germans and Australians are now in it as well. It will be interesting to see how they go-along with the way things have been done for so many years.
So far, it appears that they rival their Asian competitors in not caring how the fish are collected. I am not surprised at the Yanks and the Germans in ownership but the Aussies aiding and abetting...they know better.
To deepen their complicity in this once Asian anamolie, many of them own their own import facility in the US, Oz and Germany...and ship to themselves. Plausible deniability is slipping away.
Steve
PS. We are now evolving a rainbow coalition of exporters whos smallest concern is the way the fish are collected. If the trade gets shut down, this is how and why it will.

ah steve if only it were so simple , australians of late have a terrible , and shameful world record .....

we have egg on our face for going into iraq, without the un
we mandortory detain children in prison because their parents have broken imigration laws .
we put up with cheap imports that damage what would have otherwise been viable local buisiness and farms .

aussies should know better ?
we can compete with the best of them !

 

[naesco]

Steve , Rover

If the intent of the proposed changes is to merely oust wholesalers than all you will have accomplished is decreased your membership.

If the intent of the proposed changes is to make AMDA into something thandon't dismiss my and others suggestions as 'musings' (which I consider an insult) when what is being put forward is sound business strategy.

 

[clarionreef]

Ian,
By the 'Aussies should know better', I ment that they have had a tradition of net collecting for decades monitored by the GBRMPA. [ Great Barrier Reef Marine PARK Authority ].
If after all that experience and familiarity with the netting materials and methodology...they still support and accept cyanide fisherman to fill their tanks... then shame on them. Several Aussies who know how to collect [ ie Peter Boserio] are 'working it' in Cebu as we speak...not to mention the Bali-Aussie connection thru Ed Jones outfit.
These guys know 20 times more about net collecting then MACs whole staff. They are on trial.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

You are correct Naesco, I didn't intend to dismiss your points as "musings". However, we all need to be careful that during a free and open exchange of ideas, who we are representing is made perfectly clear.

 

[dizzy]

After a brief cooling down period let's get back to the problem of facilitiy etailers. Certainly I think most of us would agree not all of them are bad. Little guys trying to carve out their piece of the American Dream, what's wrong with that? The problem is that these guys have the potential to start nationwide price wars. A web site on a bb reaches a lot of people daily. Garage guys who were trying to get a decent markup soon realize the hobbyists are flocking to the sites with the cheaper pricing. They are more or less forced into matching the prices if they want to compete, at least on the bread and butter items. Even the hobbyists that don't want to take the risk of reshipping animals see the pricing and then begin to expect the same from the brick and mortars who have much higher overhead. You couple that with all the people going to these so called education sites and blasting the lfs for being ripoffs and bafoons and you can begin to understand the problem. The real cause for concern is that it gets worse instead of better, once everyone with a garage and a computer thinks they can be a virtual retailer. We are just seeing the tip of the iceberg in this respect.

I'm just curious if Jenn and Jeff think it is fine for all the wholesalers to begin setting up their own sites to compete with the retailers they sell too. (Or the ones they don't) What's good for the goose is good for the gander we always say here in Dixie. This thread was started to question AMDA's fairness on how it accepts members. If that same standard is applied to you guys then you have just agreed to completely dissolve the wholesale distribution chain and it's very loose rules. If we as retailers don't begin to establish some sort of unified ground rules as to what we will tolerate, then I guess we deserve to cut out of the picture. AMDA can't let certain members break the rules just because we like them personally. We have to establish certain guidlines and then we will apply them all equally under the law. I dare say we have shown a great deal of courage in tackling this difficult issue for the good of our fellow retailers. We have shown even more courage by being willing to discuss and debate these issues. I'm proud to serve on a BOD with people of courage.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

Whats AMDA's stance on retailers transhipping?

 

[MaryHM]

The problem is that these guys have the potential to start nationwide price wars

Facility etailers probably wouldn't be the ones starting nationwide price wars. Drop shippers and jobbers would because they don't have to stock animals and they don't have to factor in that overhead. We have all 3 types of etailers operating now and I really haven't seen any "price wars" occur. You see that more with drygoods than livestock.

Garage guys who were trying to get a decent markup soon realize the hobbyists are flocking to the sites with the cheaper pricing. They are more or less forced into matching the prices if they want to compete, at least on the bread and butter items.

I think we've already established that "garage guys" aren't included under the definition of facility etailer.

I'm just curious if Jenn and Jeff think it is fine for all the wholesalers to begin setting up their own sites to compete with the retailers they sell too. (Or the ones they don't)

My question for you is this. If a retail store is not purchasing from my wholesale company, then why should I protect them by not selling to their customers? Why should I protect someone's profit margin who isn't concerned about mine? Support me, and I'll support you. Don't support me, and I could really care less about whether I'm dipping into your customer base. Retailers also circumvent the traditional overseas supplier-wholesaler-retailer chain by purchasing via transship. Is AMDA going to disallow transshipping members in order to protect the wholesalers or is AMDA just out for the retailers?

 

[MaryHM]

LOL Gresham- great minds.....

 

[clarionreef]

Right Mitch,
Despite the best intentions of the current crop of dealers... the summer approaches and we find that prices dip to around landed cost for these newbies to remain in the game. Most don't, but the damage is done as the eye for an eye price wars go forth.
Price wars on limited wildstock is not intelligent.
If however...it really became the law of the jungle and everyone joins the imagined gold rush, then why won't real importers just take over completely and sell direct to the hobbyists themselves? Why should I for example sell to an etailer when I could become that very etailer and with my imported costs so much cheaper then he could get it for?
For example, I have nice green bubble corals today...Why not get that hobbyist price instead of letting an internet outfit get it?
Another phoneline, another checkbook and business liscence and viola...another etailer is born that can go even cheaper still.
And then Quality Marine or SDC does the same and outlowballs me...then its a price war of the primary importers and not the next level up.
So then I ship from my own collecting stations still cheaper to fight with Quality and SDC...and they do the same w/ theirs.
Finally, my own divers open up a website and flog red zooanthids and bluespot jawfish via FEDEX at the Mexican border...before returning.
OOOPs, This will probably happen...and...
Western civilization goes to hell in a shopping basket.
Steve

 

[MaryHM]

Despite the best intentions of the current crop of dealers... the summer approaches and we find that prices dip to around landed cost for these newbies to remain in the game. Most don't, but the damage is done as the eye for an eye price wars go forth.

What companies are involved in these price wars? I've haven't noticed any, but I don't view etailer sites that often.

And then Quality Marine or SDC does the same and outlowballs me...then its a price war of the primary importers and not the next level up.
So then I ship from my own collecting stations still cheaper to fight with Quality and SDC...and they do the same w/ theirs.
Finally, my own divers open up a website and flog red zooanthids and bluespot jawfish via FEDEX at the Mexican border...before returning.
OOOPs, This will probably happen...and...
Western civilization goes to hell in a shopping basket.

If this is going to happen, it's going to happen. AMDA cannot demand that every wholesaler only sell to B&Ms. It's impossible. Because where there's a market, there's a supplier. Say you get the "Big 5" wholesalers to quit selling to etailers. I can guarantee you that some other company will open up to sell only to etailers or direct to hobbyists (as Mitch said is happening now). It's not going to stop. AMDA has no power to stop it. It's capitalism in all its glory. Of course we can debate the issues of the impacts on wild stocks, etc... but the bottom line is that etail is here to stay, and creating a level playing field containing B&M's and drop shipping etailers will never happen. AMDA may be able to get better pricing by creating a buyer's co-op type situation with some wholesalers. But isn't that what you guys are complaining about now- the low pricing?

So I guess I have a NEW QUESTION for the NEW AMDA.
What exactly does AMDA wish to accomplish with this new stance?

 

[Fish World1]

I'm just curious if Jenn and Jeff think it is fine for all the wholesalers to begin setting up their own sites to compete with the retailers they sell too. (Or the ones they don't) What's good for the goose is good for the gander we always say here in Dixie. This thread was started to question AMDA's fairness on how it accepts members. If that same standard is applied to you guys then you have just agreed to completely dissolve the wholesale distribution chain and it's very loose rules. If we as retailers don't begin to establish some sort of unified ground rules as to what we will tolerate, then I guess we deserve to cut out of the picture. AMDA can't let certain members break the rules just because we like them personally. We have to establish certain guidlines and then we will apply them all equally under the law. I dare say we have shown a great deal of courage in tackling this difficult issue for the good of our fellow retailers. We have shown even more courage by being willing to discuss and debate these issues. I'm proud to serve on a BOD with people of courage.
Mitch

From what I've seen most, NOT all of the wholesalers sell to the public at wholesale prices. I had a friend of mine that came back from IMAC last year with a card from one of the big wholesalers. They told them if they ever wanted to do a group order just give them a call. No need for a business license. I guess I would rather see a website like Mary's with prices that I can compete with once you add the shipping and the box charges in.

I agree you can't let members break the rules that you set. That is why I'm not joining AMDA at this time. I may try to e-tail a few select things in the future, I might not. I respect your stance on e-tailing and it does take courage to come on a BB and post the things you did.

As Jenn pointed out I have a bigger problem with the drygoods than I do with livestock. It's hard to compete when they sell it cheaper than you can buy it.

 

[clarionreef]

Mary,
Pointing out thats its a brutal, unfair ' fish eat fish' world is nothing new.
Uniting to becoming more effective in promoting an agenda of civilized industry reform is my interest here as a citizen of the trade. [As a private businessperson...my kneejerk, er...primal inclination is somewhat different.]
If its the law of the jungle and survival of the fittest, then I could easily out lowball the 15 dollar bicolor angels or the 30 dollar flame angels that you're not seeing. The idea is to avoid the law of the jungle mentality as it would absolutely guarantee that nothing for the general good of the trade will ever happen. Then the tragedy of the commons intensifies and the dogs of war are unleashed.
No net training, no resource assessments and no defense of a trade that seems to enjoy a bit of a break these past few months.
Steve
No wait...NEWSFLASH. The trade is about to see the Christmas Islands close up for a moratorium as the flame angel crowbar wars on their reefs have ruined too much habitat. Finally, fisheries there is stepping in. Its about time guys!
But why care right?

 

[Anonymous]

As Jenn pointed out I have a bigger problem with the drygoods than I do with livestock. It's hard to compete when they sell it cheaper than you can buy it.

We intend to address the dry goods issues as well.

If this is going to happen, it's going to happen. AMDA cannot demand that every wholesaler only sell to B&Ms. It's impossible. Because where there's a market, there's a supplier. Say you get the "Big 5" wholesalers to quit selling to etailers. I can guarantee you that some other company will open up to sell only to etailers or direct to hobbyists (as Mitch said is happening now). It's not going to stop. AMDA has no power to stop it. It's capitalism in all its glory. Of course we can debate the issues of the impacts on wild stocks, etc... but the bottom line is that etail is here to stay, and creating a level playing field containing B&M's and drop shipping etailers will never happen. AMDA may be able to get better pricing by creating a buyer's co-op type situation with some wholesalers. But isn't that what you guys are complaining about now- the low pricing?

You are exactly right, which is why I don't understand why people think we are trying to "do away with etail" or squelch competition. If there is a market, there will be a supplier. Exactly the reason why we are trying to let the wholesalers know that there is a market for a livestock wholesaler that doesn't allow cherry pickers jobbers or walk in etailers, or who sells direct. There isn't a market currently because it hasn't been built and organized yet. The level playing field has very little to do with price. It has to do with access to quality livestock before someone with a website and a bonus room walks in and buys it.

We expect to accomplish better distribution from the wholesalers, and to do away with looking on the net and seeing killer animals that we can't ever seem to get. It has to do with throwing some more advantage toward going into an LFS and being able to see quality stuff and not the dregs that made it to the east coast. It has to do with making fish stores more profitable and enticing to own and operate in order to grow that segment of the industry as opposed to perpetually turning out new web sites with even lower prices.

My question for you is this. If a retail store is not purchasing from my wholesale company, then why should I protect them by not selling to their customers? Why should I protect someone's profit margin who isn't concerned about mine? Support me, and I'll support you. Don't support me, and I could really care less about whether I'm dipping into your customer base. Retailers also circumvent the traditional overseas supplier-wholesaler-retailer chain by purchasing via transship. Is AMDA going to disallow transshipping members in order to protect the wholesalers or is AMDA just out for the retailers?

The only reason is if you are losing customers because of it. It would be silly of me to treat a new customer differently just because they are in frequent customers, or to treat those who only shop in the store every so often differently than the weeklies. Because the goal is to turn every infrequent customer into a frequent one. Those with something to sell have very little power over those who wish to buy. It's just the way it is. You have to treat everyone the same, like a valuable customer.

AMDA is a retailers group. We have no desire to tell our members who or where or what to buy. If they choose to tranship, they have that right, if they choose to order from etailers r us, they have that right. The customer chain is a one way street. I can't make demands of my customers any more than my distributors can make demands of me. There is always somewhere else to buy.

 

[Anonymous]

AMDA is a retailers group? American Marinelife DEALERS Association. Can you explain to me your definition of marinelife dealer? How bout why the President owns a wholesale outfit? How bout the manufactureres and service guys that are members? AMDA is not, has never been, just a retailers group, thats silly.

If a retail store buys all their cherries at one wholesaler once every month ot two, but buys all their bread and butter at another one and tranships to boot, who do you think is getting the short end of the stick now? If your going to disallow etail as its bad for retailers, well you'd better look into protecting the wholesalers, who by the very definition are MARINELIFE DEALERS.

 

[JennM]

I'm just curious if Jenn and Jeff think it is fine for all the wholesalers to begin setting up their own sites to compete with the retailers they sell too. (Or the ones they don't)

Speaking for myself... I think Jeff is about to venture into etail so don't lump me in with him thanks

No I don't think it's fine... so I don't support the wholesalers who compete with me by selling direct. Mary won't sell to anyone within 50 miles of my store, but offers them the option of including their order in mine, so I can get another customer through my door. I think that's reasonable. If I was buying from "Big Box", do you think they would check their customer list to see if they were taking food out of my mouth before they send their consumer shipment out? Do you think they'd try to get the customer in my door instead of delivering to theirs? Nuh uh. There's the difference. Big Box drop ship doesn't care if the buyer lives next door to me - they don't care if I have supported them or not.

Why she should try to protect LFS that don't buy from her? Perhaps before she sells to the hobbyist, she should approach their LFS? Who says she doesn't? I don't know wholesalers that wouldn't like to scoop another customer... She's also not lowballing - prices I've seen are competitive with retail so there's really no advantage to the hobbyist buying direct from her, versus me - let me assume the risk for the same or lesser price.

Yes in one sense it's no different from Big Box... but in other ways it's vastly different.

Perhaps AMDA needs to look at each situation on its own merit.

Jenn

 

[MaryHM]

So AMDA is only doing this to have access to cherry pieces basically? How many of those do you think there are to go around? Enough to make 1500 AMDA retailers who order on a weekly basis satisfied? I think not. As the only wholesaler in the country that doesn't allow walkins and allows retailers thousands of miles away to see our cherry pieces via the web, I can tell you that it doesn't make that much of a difference. I've said it once and I'll say it again- retailers are just like hobbyists in the fact that they want variety and cheap prices. If they can get a few cherry pieces, then wonderful. But if not, cheap is just fine. Most of those cherry picker jobbers you refer to are buying for retailers. Most of the walkins lining up on 104th at 8am Monday morning are from all of the local retailers in the LA area.

 

[Anonymous]

AMDA is a retailers group? American Marinelife DEALERS Association. Can you explain to me your definition of marinelife dealer? How bout why the President owns a wholesale outfit? How bout the manufactureres and service guys that are members? AMDA is not, has never been, just a retailers group, thats silly.

Those changes are currently under debate. Wholesalers and manufacturers will certainly be included in AMDA's new direction, but it is primarily being reorganized into a retailers group.

If a retail store buys all their cherries at one wholesaler once every month ot two, but buys all their bread and butter at another one and tranships to boot, who do you think is getting the short end of the stick now? If your going to disallow etail as its bad for retailers, well you'd better look into protecting the wholesalers, who by the very definition are MARINELIFE DEALERS.

I would expect the wholesalers (as with any business) to look after themselves. If a customer gets nothing but cherries, but isn't a good customer, whose fault is that? It is AMDA's stance that wholesalers will be looking out for themselves by looking after the retailers.

 

[dizzy]

If this is going to happen, it's going to happen. AMDA cannot demand that every wholesaler only sell to B&Ms. It's impossible. Because where there's a market, there's a supplier. Say you get the "Big 5" wholesalers to quit selling to etailers. I can guarantee you that some other company will open up to sell only to etailers or direct to hobbyists (as Mitch said is happening now). So I guess I have a NEW QUESTION for the NEW AMDA.
What exactly does AMDA wish to accomplish with this new stance?

Mary AMDA is not demanding anyone to do anything. All we can do is recognize those wholesalers that try to protect retailers and reward them with our business. When this grows it will be a considerable amount of business. We simply think that wholesalers should pick which customer base they want to cater to, retail or etail. You ever heard that saying: "You can't eat your cake and have it too." Yeah it's like that.
Mitch

PS You guys are laying the ground work for the senario Steve mentions.

 

[Anonymous]

I would expect the wholesalers (as with any business) to look after themselves

So your saying wholesalers aren't going to have a voice in AMDA? You'd better change the name right now then to American Marinelife RETAILERS Association then. Give em all the boot, ORA, the french dude, us (Cortez Marine), all the service guys and of course the manufacturers.

I would expect the wholesalers (as with any business) to look after themselves

Same goes for the retailers, why completly change how AMDA was set-up in the first place to only allow for the helping of retailers? Maybe your right though, us wholesalers should get together, maybe we can get the prices to how they should be.

Transshipping retailers are eating there cake and having it too Mitch.

 

[MaryHM]

LOL- cracks me up how the perceived "wholesaler takeover" of AMDA caused so much fuss a few years ago. But the "retailer takeover" is just fine. I'm not interested in protecting businesses or organizations that don't protect me. It seems like you guys want your cake and to eat it too. "Wholesaler, protect the traditional buying chain! Save us from the evil etail empire- give us the cherry pieces." then turn around and transship to your hearts content. Bah. Cheap prices......high variety.....stuff that lives just long enough to make it out of the retailer's tanks....that's what fuels this industry and all of its evils.