clarionreef
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Kalk,
Once you work with newly converted collectors...they tell you everything. My main guy in Bali collected for 15 years with cyanide and he confirmed to me the truth about Bangaiis [ among others] as did the Indonesian fishermans Associations organizers...and the head of Telapak, an Indonesian eco-development group who works in the area.
The South Carolina Aquarium also works in the area and has confirmed the prevalance of cyanide abuse in the collection of this poor fish.
Your sense of logic about these things is illogical. Many things that seem nonsense to us happens. I've watched enough cyanide fisherman underwater poison clownfish, salifin tangs and other easy fish to have gotten over this point.
If Bangaiis were clean, I'd already stock them. Why refuse willing customers when they'd all happily buy the Bangaiis if we had them? Few if any customers do without them anyway. Only WE do without them.
Its our cross to bear.
Steve
Once you work with newly converted collectors...they tell you everything. My main guy in Bali collected for 15 years with cyanide and he confirmed to me the truth about Bangaiis [ among others] as did the Indonesian fishermans Associations organizers...and the head of Telapak, an Indonesian eco-development group who works in the area.
The South Carolina Aquarium also works in the area and has confirmed the prevalance of cyanide abuse in the collection of this poor fish.
Your sense of logic about these things is illogical. Many things that seem nonsense to us happens. I've watched enough cyanide fisherman underwater poison clownfish, salifin tangs and other easy fish to have gotten over this point.
If Bangaiis were clean, I'd already stock them. Why refuse willing customers when they'd all happily buy the Bangaiis if we had them? Few if any customers do without them anyway. Only WE do without them.
Its our cross to bear.
Steve
I think you need to tell the baby Cardinals .....they seem to not remember being squirted..... Or maybe the Daddy fish keeps his mouth closed during the poison exposer :wink: Ten years ago yes , when freight was cheap ......it mattered not if fish died in transport. The market has changed and the bag of water costs more then the fish . There are very few fish presently being collected in BAli with poison. The air freight is twice what PI is to the USA .....Born again netters are not the best people to get your info from ...........kinda like the convicted felon telling you what a bad person the other guy is, ......... :wink: Peter , how much would it cost to start up your own testing station?
clarionreef
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Born again netters are not the best sources?
And you are!!
Kalk...you barely know beans about field truth and practice...and half baked ones at that. Inaccurate gossip from your L.A. transhipper is merely business blather.
Kalk-washing truth with rare nerve however...is your own special talent.
Steve
And you are!!
Kalk...you barely know beans about field truth and practice...and half baked ones at that. Inaccurate gossip from your L.A. transhipper is merely business blather.
Kalk-washing truth with rare nerve however...is your own special talent.
Steve
Actually I like to think that I confront direct questions and point out fact based issues, like baby cardinals making it to market or that the increased cost of air freight influencing the importance of the fish making it to market. It cost 100 bucks to ship a 30 dollar large blueface Angel{One to a box}. Do you REALLY think the importers dont care if the fish is cyanide collected or not? Do you REALLY think the exporter does not care if the fish makes it through shipping? See this idea that the importers and exporters are encouraging cyanide use is out dated. There are too few fish today, which makes each fish more important. And the cost to get the fish to the USA far out weighs the cost of the fish itself. At least in my theory {THAT THE AIR FREIGHT COMPANIES ENCOURAGE CYANIDE USE }In my theory, the bad guy has a motive {More airfreight}NOBODY wins in your scenario. What good are dead fish? If the fish dies during shipping .......every one looses. The fish is out , the exporter is out his 30 bucks , the importer is out 100 bucks. The only people that still make out one way or the other is the Air cargo company. I have a theory.....maybe its the Airfreight companies that are actually supplying all the cyanide to the divers? See the more fish that die during shipping ...the more fish that need to be resent to fulfill the US fish demands! That way Airfreight companies make more money! ...............I will let you have the last word, since this is you thread. {Again , I some how find myself on the AMDA thread} 
clarionreef
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Huh? :roll:
What kind of answer was that? 8O
A rambling, incoherent stem-winder on the evils of frieght carriers?
If you can't sleep have a hot chocolate...not some alcohol. Oh well, I suppose RDO keeps you off the hiway. :lol:
Steve
What kind of answer was that? 8O
A rambling, incoherent stem-winder on the evils of frieght carriers?
If you can't sleep have a hot chocolate...not some alcohol. Oh well, I suppose RDO keeps you off the hiway. :lol:
Steve
The kind of answer that you have zero response to....{other then your crazy KAlk and because I say so Super net collector}...You cant explain and neither can Peter.........what advantage importers or exporters would have in shipping Known cyanide fish? Unlike ten +years ago when fish were abundant and shipping cheap , it mattered little that many of the fish were dying on the way to market. In todays market fish are not abundant as they were and the cost of shipping a dead fish far to expensive. You position is a sales tool .cortez marine":37wn85d4 said:
Kalk, First if we examine Dizzy's posting he stated that an Indonesian admitted banggai cardinals were collected with cyanide.. and were dying like flies.
I am not sure where they died. Was it at the exporter, importer, or retailer? It should be noted that the person to first use the expression about fish dying like flies from drug collection practices was Robert Straughan in about 1967. So, there is a good chance that fish caught with cyanide "die like flies".
I am not sure whether or not ORA has been breeding banggaii cardinalfish. I do know that my local LFS complained that clownfish received from ORA (shipped from Ft. Pierce FL to St. Petersburg FL) had such a high rate of mortality (this was several years ago) that they stopped buying them. In this case, we would have to conclude that the clownfish were tank bred, and that the cause of the mortality was not cyanide.
Although no one has recently replied to the thread about shipping that I started, I think we all need to determine what caused the mortality. Was it cyanide, stress, ammonia, starvation or some combination of these factors? I think we can see that even if fish are net-caught or tank-reared, they can experience high mortality because of poor shipping practices. And for the record, fish that are heavily stressed are more susceptible to disease.
But, the veterinarian at the UF Aquaculture laboratory in Ruskin, Florida does not think antibiotics should be used for shipping fish. Well I disagree. It is better to receive fish alive than dead. We need to come up with acclimation protocols that the LFS stores can use to reduce their mortality.
Sorry this got onto the AMDA thread. But, someone else started this digression.
Peter
I am not sure where they died. Was it at the exporter, importer, or retailer? It should be noted that the person to first use the expression about fish dying like flies from drug collection practices was Robert Straughan in about 1967. So, there is a good chance that fish caught with cyanide "die like flies".
I am not sure whether or not ORA has been breeding banggaii cardinalfish. I do know that my local LFS complained that clownfish received from ORA (shipped from Ft. Pierce FL to St. Petersburg FL) had such a high rate of mortality (this was several years ago) that they stopped buying them. In this case, we would have to conclude that the clownfish were tank bred, and that the cause of the mortality was not cyanide.
Although no one has recently replied to the thread about shipping that I started, I think we all need to determine what caused the mortality. Was it cyanide, stress, ammonia, starvation or some combination of these factors? I think we can see that even if fish are net-caught or tank-reared, they can experience high mortality because of poor shipping practices. And for the record, fish that are heavily stressed are more susceptible to disease.
But, the veterinarian at the UF Aquaculture laboratory in Ruskin, Florida does not think antibiotics should be used for shipping fish. Well I disagree. It is better to receive fish alive than dead. We need to come up with acclimation protocols that the LFS stores can use to reduce their mortality.
Sorry this got onto the AMDA thread. But, someone else started this digression.
Peter
Look Bangaiis have very small spawns. 15-20 is a large batch. I have bred them a few times. Sometimes when they spit them out they get eaten too. It is certainly not automatic that you can save the entire batch everytime, but new techniques may be developed. Most of people who have worked with bangaii cardinals have written them off as not being economically viable. Simply put you can make more money with less effort if you work with clowns or psuedos. I have had trouble with my females breeding my males to death. Even kalk now knows the daddy mouthbroods the eggs and babies. :wink: The male will not eat when he is holding eggs or fry. About the time he gets ready to spit, along comes momma with a new batch and he doesn't get the chance to replenish his depleted food reserves.
FYI I spoke with Kevin at MO and ORA in not currently working with this species in a serious manner. I personally believe a bacterial infection is killing more bangaiis than anything else, but what do I know.
Mitch
FYI I spoke with Kevin at MO and ORA in not currently working with this species in a serious manner. I personally believe a bacterial infection is killing more bangaiis than anything else, but what do I know.
Mitch
dizzy":1bymr8hm said:
...and yet they have it pictured in their promotional flyer. In the 2+ years I've been ordering I've yet to see them on the list. Pyjamas are now available, but weren't on the list for a long time.
ORA also hasn't had seahorses for quite a long while, either...at least 2 months.
Peace,
Chip
Kalk, you're getting cyanide caught fish confused with dead fish. The two are not necessarily related. It's been said OVER AND OVER AND OVER in here (I swear we should call this forum the Echo Chamber) that cyanide caught fish can be healthy. That a cyanide caught fish doesn't necessarily mean a dead fish. That fish can be caught with cyanide and still survive to a ripe old age. That there is a way to properly administer a dose of cyanide to catch a fish and not kill it. The problem with the cyanide is that it kills THE REEFS. Simple concept that has been spouted in here since day one.
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