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MaryHM

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Um, hell no I'm not willing to retract it. I'm still waiting for his literature citatation. At that point, I will retract it. I'm basing this on experience, not emotion. I have fish that are cyanide target species from Philippines and Indonesia in my facility. Chances are really good that they were cyanide caught, but I'll concede the fact that maybe, just maybe, they weren't. I lose more mandarins than I do clown triggers.

Even Steve is saying that cyanide caught fish can live to a ripe old age. Steve has more experience dealing with cyanide issues than pretty much everyone in this forum combined. When we can't cite scientific findings because they don't exist, I'm going to base my opinions on my personal experience and the experience of others over someone's emotional rantings anyday.
 

MaryHM

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Oh, and Wayne...you don't have to use bold print to get your point across. Isn't that what you told me just a few days ago?? Lots of pots here in that are seriously concerned with the pigmentation of the kettles.
 

naesco

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Again you are misleading those who read you most recent post.

You posted earlier as follows
I have fish I know were caught with cyanide in my facility

Is the above statement true? Please answer the question.

I cannot believe that you could refer to Dr. Rubec comments as emotional rantings. You are referring to an individual that has earned a doctorate and who is a world renown expert in the field of the use and effects of cyanide. You owe him and this board an apology.
 

MaryHM

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Even a two year old would tell you that cyanide is a poison and that even small amounts would be unhealthy to all living things.

Unhealthy does not equal fatal. I never said it wasn't unhealthy, just that it isn't always fatal.
 

MaryHM

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Again you are misleading those who read you most recent post.

You posted earlier as follows
I have fish I know were caught with cyanide in my facility

Is the above statement true? Please answer the question.


I clarified that statement, Wayne.

I have fish that are cyanide target species from Philippines and Indonesia in my facility. Chances are really good that they were cyanide caught, but I'll concede the fact that maybe, just maybe, they weren't.
 

naesco

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MaryHM":1djqn4ax said:
Even a two year old would tell you that cyanide is a poison and that even small amounts would be unhealthy to all living things.

Unhealthy does not equal fatal. I never said it wasn't unhealthy, just that it isn't always fatal.

No. One more time Here is your quote
Cyanide fish can be healthy.

Are you now prepared to admit that you were wrong in making that statement?
 

MaryHM

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I'm not wrong here until Peter gets that scientific paper over to me. Unlike you, when I'm proven wrong I will admit it. Still waiting on that proof.

Let me put it in simple terms that you can understand.

There once was a person who smoked a pack a day. Lots and lots of nasty nicotine exposure. It made that person unhealthy. Eventually that person got a brain and decided that they didn't want to be unhealthy anymore. So they quit smoking. No more nasty nicotine exposure. For a while, they were still unhealthy. But in the absence of the nicotine, their tissues began to heal, until eventually they were able to lead a healthy live with no ill effects from their previous nicotine exposure.

See Wayne, I don't cyanide fish at my facility. It's too expensive and too messy, plus I've gotten pretty good at digging fish out of cubes with nets. They get one exposure of cyanide- at the point of capture. Yes, this can cause damage. But apparently that damage can reverse itself when the fish is placed in a healthy environment, because there are just too many cyanide target species that have been in folks tanks for years.
 

dizzy

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Oh yes I can. 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O
 

MaryHM

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Oh no you can't! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
 

naesco

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Your comments are laughable.

You may be a mere scientist but none the less you have a professional responsibility towards your fellow scientists.
Peter Rubec holds a doctorate. He is an accomplished expert in the use and effects of cyanide. He has published in his field and undoubtedly his opinion will be accepted as expert evidence in a court of law to punsih those who are caught with cyanide caught fish in their facilities.
How could you possibly suggest he scamper about looking for papers for you?
Mary a grade two student will tell you that any poison is harmful.

As to your ridiculous smoking comments I will ask you to look in the faces of those who smoke and are dying of cancer and tell them that smoking is not harmful to them.
Mary look into the faces of your children. What would you tell them?
 

naesco

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MaryHM":z862tn50 said:
Oh no you can't! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Let's be honest Mary.
You got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.
You made some stupid stupid postings that you wished you hadn't.
Apologize to those you have offended and get on with the rest of your day.

Wayne
 

MaryHM

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Ok. I guess I'm going to play merry go round with Wayne today. Surprise, surprise. I'm going to break this down for you yet again. You constantly astonish me with your inability to grasp even the simplest of concepts and your ability to twist what people say.

He has published in his field and undoubtedly his opinion will be accepted as expert evidence in a court of law to punsih those who are caught with cyanide caught fish in their facilities.

Peter knows the literature backwards and forwards. I've talked to him a lot more than you have, Wayne. If the paper I am looking for exists, he knows about it. If it doesn't.....

Mary a grade two student will tell you that any poison is harmful.

Again, harmful does not equal fatal.

I'm sure a grade two student somewhere has gotten into the chemicals under the kitchen sink and took a swig. Some may die, many more recover with no permanent effects.


I will ask you to look in the faces of those who smoke and are dying of cancer and tell them that smoking is not harmful to them.

The depths of your ridiculousness know no bounds. Please tell me where I said smoking wasn't harmful??? There is a point (and it's scientifically proven) that if you cease your exposure to nicotine you can fully recover from its effects. THAT IS A SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN FACT. I don't smoke, my husband doesn't smoke, and that's not the point. Once again, the point flew completely over your head.

A quote, from the movie "Wayne's World"

Garth Algar: Did you ever see that "Twilight Zone" where the guy signed a contract and they cut out his tongue and put it in a jar and it wouldn't die, it just grew and pulsated and gave birth to baby tongues? Pretty cool, huh?
 

MaryHM

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Some information about smoking from http://besmokefree.net/Quitsmokinginfo/ ... nIquit.htm

Two hours after your last cigarette Nicotine begins to leave your blood stream. Some people may feel withdrawal pangs. This is a good sign. Your body is cleaning itself. Hang in there. Within two days all the nicotine byproducts will be gone.
Two days Your sense of taste and smell sharpen. In addition, your breath, hair, fingers and teeth will be cleaner. Stored toxins are releasing themselves. You may get dizzy spells, or feel short of breath.
Two weeks Your circulation improves. So does your confidence. You start to think that you might be able to quit for good. Your body's overall energy level increases. Coughing, sinus congestion, fatigue and shortness of breath decrease.
Two months Blood flow improves to your hands and feet, keeping them warmer. Your skin looks healthier.
Three months The cilia (a hair-like cleaning system in the lungs) begin to recover and remove the mucous, so you can cough it up, cleaning your lungs and reducing the chance of infection. You may notice increased coughing for a few days.
After one year Your risk of lung cancer is reduced and you have less risk of heart disease. Fifteen years after quitting, the risk approaches that of someone who has never smoked.
 

MaryHM

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Let's be honest Mary.
You got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.
You made some stupid stupid postings that you wished you hadn't.
Apologize to those you have offended and get on with the rest of your day.

Let's be honest Wayne.
You have no experience in this industry.
Everything you know you've learned from others, especially me.
You twist everything people say and ignore facts.
You operate on pure emotion.
You refuse to answer questions, you just ask the same ones over and over and over.
Apologize to those you have offended and get on with the rest of your life.
 

naesco

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Another Saturday morning gen from Mary ( a scientist at that)

"There is a point (and it's scientifically proven) that if you cease your exposure to nicotine you can fully recover from its effects. THAT IS A SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN FACT

Take a minute of your time to read this headline this AM.
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/27/sc ... king040527

So Mary tell those with all the diseases listed in the above thread that if they quit smoking it will all go away. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Like I posted earlier. You are obviously having a bad day. Apologize and all is forgiven. Please don't continue as all you are doing is embarrassing yourself.
 

MaryHM

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Wayne, Wayne, Wayne. Again I am not saying that smoking is healthy. Once you get cancer, quitting isn't going to reverse it. I'm saying that if you quit PRIOR to getting a nasty disease, you have an excellent chance of reversing the effects. Let me try putting this yet another way.

Smoking is deadly. Those who smoke for years and years will develop some pretty nasty diseases. That said, shall we assume that a person who smokes for 2 months and quits will die a horrible smoke related death? Or is it possible that the damage they have done within that 2 month period is reversible and that stopping the exposure to nicotine will allow their tissues to heal and return to normal?

Since the smoking example is so hard to grasp, let's try this one. I had a very nasty bike accident a few months ago. Got what I called "3rd degree" scrapes on my arm and leg from extended exposure along a wooden fence. The damage was done, but as soon as I quit dragging my body along the fence, the healing process began. I still have some after effects, but I'm healing. And as long as I don't get friendly with the fence again, I'll be ok. Bodies have enormous healing power. Fish have amazing recovery skills. I have seen fish come in in busted bags with very little water and no oxygen. Laying on their side, barely breathing. I wouldn't call that environment healthy, but time and time again they amaze me with their ability to be up swimming and eating within a few days time.

I'm not having a bad day. Just the opposite! I am making excellent progress on my new website and I'm looking forward to going to a Dodger's game tonight. Whenver I disagree with you Wayne, it doesn't mean I'm in a bad mood or having a bad day. It just means that it's a new day. :)
 

PeterIMA

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Mary, Basically the literature indicates that cyanide concentration and exposure duration are the main factors accounting for acute mortality of marine aquarium fish. There may be a concentration where fish are not killed outright. An early paper by Ireland and Robertson (1974) assumed that the collectors were using a concentration near 5 mg/L (ppm) in their squirt bottles. This cyanide ion concentation might allow fish to be captured without serious acute mortality.

However, the actual amount of cyanide being used far exceeds 5 ppm. This was first pointed out by Johannes and Riepen (1995) who stated the concentrations being used exceeded 25,000 ppm. Most MO collectors use 1 or 2 cyanide tablets and food fish collectors 3-5 NaCN tablets in a one liter squirt bottle during collection (Rubec et al. 2001). Ferdinand has stated that some collectors only use a 1/2 tablet. Since, one 20 gram sodium cyanide tablet is equivalent to 11,000 ppm cyanide ion, the concentrations being used far exceed what is safe for both the fish and the corals. Even a half tablet is equivalent to a concentration of 5,500 mg/liter (ppm) in a one liter squirt bottle.

Hanawa et al. (1998) demonstrated that a 50 ppm cyanide ion concentration for a 10 second exposure resulted in 0% mortality, 50 ppm for 60 seconds caused 0% mortality, but 120 seconds was 100% lethal to humbug damselfish (Dascyllus aruanus).

With cyanide exposure + stress (being chased or placed in a plastic bag) the following results were found. There was 0% mortality with exposure to 25 ppm after being either chased, bagged, or bagged and chased. With a concentration of 50 ppm CN ion exposed for 60 seconds, there was 0% mortality with the control, and for being chased, but a 100% mortality after being bagged.

There is no evidence that concentrations of cyanide ion less than 50 ppm are being used by the collectors, or that they can ensure that the exposure time does not exceed 120 seconds.

Hanawa et al. (1998) also did experiments on oxygen consumption by the liver that indicated impairment for longer time periods. Under non-stressed conditions, pulse exposures of 25 ppm or 50 ppm cyanide ion for 10 and 60 seconds respectively, significantly reduced liver oxygen consumption rates measured 2.5 weeks post-exposure. Under stressed conditions, liver oxygen consumption rates were significantly higher in cyanide-exposed fish than with control fish. The combined effects of cyanide exposure plus stress increased the mortality and placed an appreciable metabolic load on the fish. Hence, cyanide exposure in combination with handling stressors could partly explain the high delayed mortality in the marine aquarium trade (Hanawa et al. 1998, Rubec et al. 2001).

Hanawa, M., L. Harris, M. Graham, A. P. Farrell, and L.I. Bendall-Young. 1998. Effects of cyanide exposure on Dascyllus aruanus, a tropical marine fish species: lethality, anaesthesia, and physiological effects. Aquarium Sciences and Conservation 2: 21-34.

Rubec, P.J., F. Cruz, V. Pratt, R. Oellers,B. McCullough, and F. Lallo. 2001. Cyanide-free net-caught fish for the marine aquarium trade. Aquarium Sciences and Conservation 3: 37-51.

The other references are in the above paper. I can email the Rubec et al. (2001) paper to you if you wish. If you provide me with your fax number I can fax the Hanawa paper.

Peter Rubec
 

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