I beleive I was the one to point out that "YES" it "IS" quite possible to collect fish with teeny tiny amounts of cyanide . AMounts so small that NEITHER fish or the coral will show any ill effects what so ever. And that only when the fish is over juiced and harmed or killed that the coral also is damaged. Thats why no one has EVER been able to demonstrate that it is possible to kill the coral without also killing the target fish as well. :wink:MaryHM":2w51zz84 said:
Its backed up by the lack of any evidence that it is possible......No research has ever show that it is possible to harm the coral without killing any fish also in the test tank. I would think it might be possible{ say using a large grouper }and a weak sps coral already stressed from weeks in the scientists tank. But I have yet to hear of any such test. The rates of cyanide needed to stun but not kill .....lets say a copperband butterfly or even a Bangii cardinal. The fishes threshold for surviving the cyanide is much lower then amount of poison required to kill the reef building corals outright.MaryHM":3mrwtu2b said:
I'm sorry, but you can't make an assumption that something is a "POSITIVE" based on lack of knowledges of a "NEGATIVE". If no one has done the research, you can't say that your statement that small enough doses of cyanide doesn't kill corals is true. Now there is published research showing that cyanide exposure does have a negative impact (like death) to corals, but I'm unsure if varying dosages were tested. No wonder people like Mike, Peter, and Steve go round and round with you. You make up statements out of thin air and treat them as the gospel. I'm not going to get dragged into it until someone makes a movie called "Kalk's World". At least then I can argue in circles and get some kind of entertainment out of it! Good day 
You really think nobody has tried to achieve it? IM sure its been tried many times. Its those failed attempts that confirm its not easily achieved. What better way of replicating the correct exposer encountered in collection on the reefs , then to let the fish be the judge as to whether the dose it too high or too low as compared to the real world. Any scientist that does not understand that the fish is the true authority as to how much cyanide can be used effectively ......... has no place in research . Either you think every scientist ever contimplating the cyanide collection issue does not understand that the fish are for the most part collected alive and that a real world study would need to include the fish some where in the data...........or you must realize that scientist are not that dumb and its that they they have chosen not to release data that counters their research objectives. { Which might it be?}MaryHM":9p6mtkav said:I'm sorry, but you can't make an assumption that something is a "POSITIVE" based on lack of knowledges of a "NEGATIVE". If no one has done the research, you can't say that your statement that small enough doses of cyanide doesn't kill corals is true. Now there is published research showing that cyanide exposure does have a negative impact (like death) to corals, but I'm unsure if varying dosages were tested. No wonder people like Mike, Peter, and Steve go round and round with you. You make up statements out of thin air and treat them as the gospel. I'm not going to get dragged into it until someone makes a movie called "Kalk's World". At least then I can argue in circles and get some kind of entertainment out of it! Good day
Speaking as a person with a science degree and who worked with numerous scientists during my college years...
Yes, scientists do release data that counters their research objectives. It happens all of the time. Pick up any scientific journal for god's sake. Again, I see why Mike, Peter, and Steve get so fed up with you. Your arguments are truly ridiculous and border on delusional. If you're so sure it's been tried many times, give me some PROOF. I have proof that cyanide exposure kills corals. Where is your proof that it doesn't? If you don't have any scientifically proven data then please don't bother to respond with more conspiracy theories. I'm not interested in arguing cyanide apologetics with you.
Yes, scientists do release data that counters their research objectives. It happens all of the time. Pick up any scientific journal for god's sake. Again, I see why Mike, Peter, and Steve get so fed up with you. Your arguments are truly ridiculous and border on delusional. If you're so sure it's been tried many times, give me some PROOF. I have proof that cyanide exposure kills corals. Where is your proof that it doesn't? If you don't have any scientifically proven data then please don't bother to respond with more conspiracy theories. I'm not interested in arguing cyanide apologetics with you.
I totally disagree with the assertions being made (by Kalk, Mary and Steve) that there is a safe concentration of cyanide that allows fish to survive wihout damage and allows them to live to a ripe old age in hobbyists' tanks. This is total crap as Wayne (Naesco) stated. All of the literature that I have reviewed, demonstrates that cyanide is harmful, even at the lowest exposure concentrations. Fish that survive cyanide exposure have internal damage to their liver, spleen, brain and other tissues. They have irreversible damage to enzyme systems in the mitochondria responsible for metabolism and oxygen consumption. They can not assimilate energy because the ATP molecules are not broken down by the enzyme cytochrome oxidase to release energy. Even if a fish looks good and eats, they often starve to death. There is no evidence of fish caught with cyanide living to a ripe old age. There are fish being caught by other means (nets, traps) that survive and that may live for an extended period. No one has proven that these fish were caught with cyanide to begin with.
As far as the research by James Cervino, the cyanide concentrations tested on various genera of corals varied between 50 ppm and 600 ppm. These concentrations are far lower than what is commonly used by the collectors (even those that cut the tablets in half).
Kalk, You have no business commenting on science. You are not a scientist, so you are not qualified to judge science. There is no justification for the use of cyanide. It kills coral reefs and does contribute to the delayed mortality of marine fish that is ruining the marine aquarium trade.
When I release the CDT data, it will be in a court of law prosecuting cyanide distributors and fishermen responsible for ruining Philippine and/or Indonesian coral reefs and their fisheries.
Peter
As far as the research by James Cervino, the cyanide concentrations tested on various genera of corals varied between 50 ppm and 600 ppm. These concentrations are far lower than what is commonly used by the collectors (even those that cut the tablets in half).
Kalk, You have no business commenting on science. You are not a scientist, so you are not qualified to judge science. There is no justification for the use of cyanide. It kills coral reefs and does contribute to the delayed mortality of marine fish that is ruining the marine aquarium trade.
When I release the CDT data, it will be in a court of law prosecuting cyanide distributors and fishermen responsible for ruining Philippine and/or Indonesian coral reefs and their fisheries.
Peter
Peter,
Elwyn Segrest stood up in front of everyone at Marine Ornamentals '99 and stated that he went out with divers, saw them catch fish with cyanide, and brought those fish back to the states where they are still alive today. Let's take a cyanide target species such as a clown trigger. Heavily collected with cyanide. How do you explain the fact that many, many people throughout the decades have grown them up to big old clown triggers? According to what you just said, every single fish caught with cyanide is dead within what, a month? Two months tops? That just doesn't make any sense. I have fish I know were caught with cyanide in my facility for longer than that often (especially this time of year). How do you explain that, Peter? There is science and then there is experience. I have experience seeing cyanide caught fish live for more than a couple of months. So I'll ask you the same question I asked Kalk. Name the literature that took fish, caught them with a low enough dose of cyanide to be able to insure easy capture, and then held them in an aquarium for say 6 months. Maybe I am wrong in this and I've just had odd experiences with cyanide caught.
Elwyn Segrest stood up in front of everyone at Marine Ornamentals '99 and stated that he went out with divers, saw them catch fish with cyanide, and brought those fish back to the states where they are still alive today. Let's take a cyanide target species such as a clown trigger. Heavily collected with cyanide. How do you explain the fact that many, many people throughout the decades have grown them up to big old clown triggers? According to what you just said, every single fish caught with cyanide is dead within what, a month? Two months tops? That just doesn't make any sense. I have fish I know were caught with cyanide in my facility for longer than that often (especially this time of year). How do you explain that, Peter? There is science and then there is experience. I have experience seeing cyanide caught fish live for more than a couple of months. So I'll ask you the same question I asked Kalk. Name the literature that took fish, caught them with a low enough dose of cyanide to be able to insure easy capture, and then held them in an aquarium for say 6 months. Maybe I am wrong in this and I've just had odd experiences with cyanide caught.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Peter,
Of course cyanide kills...as do too many sleeping pills, as do rattlesnake bites.
But its also a matter of dosage, exposure time, concentration etc.
That is no defense of it. But the existance of old blue tangs and majestic angelfishes suggests that not all dosages are equal.
Kalk sees this as a good thing...oblivious to the fact that nearly all the microlife in a coral head is killed as well as so much coral...but not all, as well. We're simply avoiding the absolute in this equation.
Steve
Of course cyanide kills...as do too many sleeping pills, as do rattlesnake bites.
But its also a matter of dosage, exposure time, concentration etc.
That is no defense of it. But the existance of old blue tangs and majestic angelfishes suggests that not all dosages are equal.
Kalk sees this as a good thing...oblivious to the fact that nearly all the microlife in a coral head is killed as well as so much coral...but not all, as well. We're simply avoiding the absolute in this equation.
Steve
Mary,
Why not do the experiment, and come back and tell me what you just stated? Your experience means nothing, if you do not have data to prove how the fish in your facility were caught. Provide the numbers to prove your assertions. The reasons for why fish die are complex. Cyanide is harmful. That is a fact.
There is no justification for an aquarium trade based on destruction of coral reefs.
Why not do the experiment, and come back and tell me what you just stated? Your experience means nothing, if you do not have data to prove how the fish in your facility were caught. Provide the numbers to prove your assertions. The reasons for why fish die are complex. Cyanide is harmful. That is a fact.
There is no justification for an aquarium trade based on destruction of coral reefs.
My god, Peter. I'm not touting the benefits of cyanide use. Even when I was hard core net caught only I never said that every cyanide caught fish dies. I haven't changed my tune, just the way I do business.
I'm not saying I want to do the experiement. You said you've reviewed literature that proves your statement is true. I'm asking for you to cite the sources.
I agree that there is absoultely NO REASON for cyanide use. It kills reefs. That is proven. It's a disgusting, wasteful, harmful practice. But the fact that cyanide is harmful does not necessarily equate to a fact that it kills every exposed fish. Again, please send me citations of the literature so I can review it myself.
I'm not saying I want to do the experiement. You said you've reviewed literature that proves your statement is true. I'm asking for you to cite the sources.
I agree that there is absoultely NO REASON for cyanide use. It kills reefs. That is proven. It's a disgusting, wasteful, harmful practice. But the fact that cyanide is harmful does not necessarily equate to a fact that it kills every exposed fish. Again, please send me citations of the literature so I can review it myself.
Pot, meet kettle.
Did you not just say this to me 3 minutes ago?
Maybe it's just that MY experience means nothing, but your second hand source of information is accurate.
You also stated earlier that the literature you reviewed showed that cyanide exposure causes irreversible damage. I'm asking for a citation of the literature once again (echo chamber) that covers research done where a fish was captured with whatever is considered the "ideal" cyanide level, said fish was then tanked in a proper aquarium, and observed over an extended period. Please send me the information.
Did you not just say this to me 3 minutes ago?
Maybe it's just that MY experience means nothing, but your second hand source of information is accurate.
You also stated earlier that the literature you reviewed showed that cyanide exposure causes irreversible damage. I'm asking for a citation of the literature once again (echo chamber) that covers research done where a fish was captured with whatever is considered the "ideal" cyanide level, said fish was then tanked in a proper aquarium, and observed over an extended period. Please send me the information.
Mary I agree 100% with Dr. Rubec. I can't imagine any rational person trying to defend their cyanide postings by quoting Selwyn Segest in face the worlds expert on cyanide and its effects.
These are your most recent postings.
Cyanide caught fish can be healthy.
Cyanide fish can live to a ripe old age.
The quote below is by you. Shame on you.
I haven't changed my tune, just the way I do business.
Below is anyother of your most recent quotes.
I have fish I know were caught with cyanide in my facility
Is the above statement true? Yes or no.
These are your most recent postings.
Cyanide caught fish can be healthy.
Cyanide fish can live to a ripe old age.
The quote below is by you. Shame on you.
I haven't changed my tune, just the way I do business.
Below is anyother of your most recent quotes.
I have fish I know were caught with cyanide in my facility
Is the above statement true? Yes or no.
MaryHM":265a1yry said:
Mary's quotations were as follows:
Cyanide fish can be healthy.
Cyanide fish can live to a ripe old age
Mary are you prepared to retract these ridiculous comments as being wrong wrong wrong and apologize to Dr. Rubec?
Even a two year old would tell you that cyanide is a poison and that even small amounts would be unhealthy to all living things.
You do not need an accomplished expert in cyanide to tell you that.
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