Hobbiest comments to the MAC guys.

[clarionreef]

He writes;
"I do agree that part of the responsibility is on exporters shoulders..."part??? Part??? Who finances and arranges the distribution of the cyanide in the first place?
Who sells it to the divers? Who cheats the divers directly and daily?
The exporter of course.
Where does this apologism for them come from? Why on earth would anyone defend their cruel and insensitive mindset?

There may be accessories to the crime down the chain...but the originator of the crime is still the greater culprit.
What is this part bit???....rubbish!

Exporters are "providing"("selling") nets to collectors ...he says in defense of them.
And they have sold truckloads of cyanide to them...and for showing foreigners, yes, a tad of the cheap bogus netting again....insuring little enthusiasm for change.
Most divers however, buy their own flimsey netting in Manila as its available without any help from an exporter.
Cyanide fisherman all carry this stuff in the boat to show authorites if inspected.
Not knowing much about the subject, the glossing over of all this it is easy to understand.

"The problem is that no one cent from that profit goes back to the reef, neither the collector. "

You mean the exporters don't want to share with their countryman?
They have 400% mark-up average and little frieght to pay.
[ I have a number of diver price lists and know exactly what they get for a firefish or a coral beauty.]
The exporters enjoy $8.00 a day packers and laborers as well....and drivers, and maids etc.
The whole thing is market driven and subsidies for cyanide fish and poor quality fish are understandably lacking.
Donating free money is done already.
Its called grant money and millions of it was squandered without donating it back to the fisherman. In fact, the junk 1 lb. netting was about all some of them got. ...but usually not even that!

Did you ever meet a foreign, out of touch, "issue exploiting- diver minimizing" NGO that you didn't cover for and kiss up to ?
Banking on the poor fishermans problems while perpetuating them is rather unkind...don't you think ?


Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Your strategy to deal with the cyanide problem in the Philippines has been the wrong one since day one. You CAN NOT accuse PTFEA members of wrong doing without having a proof before the law. Instead, you have to open doors for dialog, is the best way to find solutions to problems. You HAVE to work with them and NOT against them.

This is the main reason why you MUST stay away from this. As I said before your strategy is the wrong one.

Just to remind you and inform the readers there are middlemen/women, I would say they are the culprit of the trade, they are the ones that go from community to community buying fish and distributing cyanide. Their modus operandi is "you buy my cyanide y buy your fish".

I must underline that exporters have teams of trained collectors working for them and the collected fish go to that exporter. Those fish are clean.

What can make a difference is the way of dialog. MAC's strategy is more productive, they're working with the PTFEA (Philippines Tropical Fish Exporters Association) no against them.

 

[coralfarmin]

statisticly...how many exporters are there in the PI

and how many are legit..ie dont try to, indenture collectors, who depend on the exporters pockets, with cyanide dependancy

anyone?

 

[clarionreef]

"You CAN NOT accuse PTFEA members of wrong doing without having a proof before the law. Instead, you have to open doors for dialog, is the best way to find solutions to problems. You HAVE to work with them and NOT against them. ??"

How silly to say that ... MAC has been in polite, pretentious, dialogue with them for years...
a half decade of trying to use each other...to very little acclaim. Take the fortune cookie wisdom somewhere else where its acceptable..

"Just to remind you and inform the readers there are middlemen/women, I would say they are the culprit of the trade, they are the ones that go from community to community buying fish and distributing cyanide. Their modus operandi is "you buy my cyanide y buy your fish."

And...you ommitted the part where exporters supply them with cyanide and/or finance to buy it...Why cover for them?

What can make a difference is the way of dialog. MAC's strategy is more productive, they're working with the PTFEA (Philippines Tropical Fish Exporters Association) no against them.

Wow! What an accusation.
We always said they were whitewashing each others backs, but you just came right out with it!
Steve
PS. The relationship is actually a very testy one and Lolita [ da boss ]holds what there is of it together by threads.
Jaime, you're all in the Kool-Aid, and don't even know the flavor.
In fact, you're so outdated nowadays as to appear an apologist for the cyanide trade and their own apologists.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

"You CAN NOT accuse PTFEA members of wrong doing without having a proof before the law. Instead, you have to open doors for dialog, is the best way to find solutions to problems. You HAVE to work with them and NOT against them. ??"

How silly to say that ... MAC has been in polite, pretentious, dialogue with them for years...
a half decade of trying to use each other...to very little acclaim. Take the fortune cookie wisdom somewhere else where its acceptable..

"Just to remind you and inform the readers there are middlemen/women, I would say they are the culprit of the trade, they are the ones that go from community to community buying fish and distributing cyanide. Their modus operandi is "you buy my cyanide y buy your fish."

And...you ommitted the part where exporters supply them with cyanide and/or finance to buy it...Why cover for them?

What can make a difference is the way of dialog. MAC's strategy is more productive, they're working with the PTFEA (Philippines Tropical Fish Exporters Association) no against them.

Wow! What an accusation.
We always said they were whitewashing each others backs, but you just came right out with it!
Steve
PS. The relationship is actually a very testy one and Lolita [ da boss ]holds what there is of it together by threads.
Jaime, you're all in the Kool-Aid, and don't even know the flavor.
In fact, you're so outdated nowadays as to appear an apologist for the cyanide trade and their own apologists.

Yes, MAC is working with them but to find solutions to the problems this industry has created. MAC has a positive and constructive strategy. It is a complex situation to solve.

Nowadays you do not need ..... to travel to get informed. Is easy just use your computer as I am doing know to reply to your negative and nasty messages.

 

[clarionreef]

Yes, MAC is working with them but to find solutions to the problems this industry has created. MAC has a positive and constructive strategy. It is a complex situation to solve.
Nowadays you do not need ..... to travel to get informed.

Question;
...to find solutions?
If MAC has given millions and 7 focused years on this...
How do you imagine them to now have a positive and constructive strategy?
Exactly how long is the grace period to define failure?
The new country co-ordinator admitted recently;
There are 7,000 fish collectors and we have trained only 200.
There is no dialogue within MAC any where near as 'spot on' as here on the RDO think tank.
We are the info agency that led Mark for example to get some 2 lb netting this year to show at the trainings hoped for... Thats the greatest progress in a long time.

Steve
PS.
I know the 7,000 fish collector count is off and even the 200 figure as most of the training did not stick...but, lets let it stand.
200 trained for all that investment???
By what measure is that a success? Re-defining failure is the new talent I perceive. They are starting to make even Haribons debacle look good.!
When does it get positive and constructive?

I mean they secured funding based on claimed expertise....
and they seek to mandate standards that their yearly , well financed stream of failures suggest that they cannot themselves follow.

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaime, I agree with Steve. The Philippines exporters who are members of the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Association (PFTEA) have no intention of cooperating. So, there is no hope that the MAC can work with them to reform pricing to the collectors or collection practices. The PFTEA is not willing to pay collectors more for net caught fish (as you have admitted). See Lolita Ty's response to my emails about this subject posted on Wetweb Media. Some PFTEA exporters have been distributing cyanide to the collectors and most sell cyanide-caught fish (the data to prove this is in the CTD database).

The $40 million estimate that you gave for the landed value of marine fishes imported is wrong. The FOB (landed) value to the U.S.A. prior to 1984 obtained from BFAR reports ranged from about $2-4 million US dollars per year (Rubec and Pratt 1984). There are no data to indicate that annual FOB values have ever been near $40 million. Perhaps you were referring to the retail value?

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.unep-wcmc.org/index.html?htt ... x.htm~main

I found this an interesting read. I don't know what and how much I believe, as the exporters and imports don't seem to agree.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Peter,

The US$40 M was for the last 10 years (1984 to 2004). A while ago I posted some numbers coming from the Bureau of Commerce of the US regarding marine ornamentals coming from the Philippines to the US. The above number came from there. However, we know that that landed value is not real. Gresham, suggested that that number should be multiplied by 10 to get closer to real values. He knows why.

Peter, can you come with names of exporters doing that? You said SOME PTFEA members have been distributing cyanide. You know very well it is a criminal action. I do not know what would happen to you guys if you accused in North America someone of doing that without having evidence.

Mark is playing an important and crucial role in the Philippines. We should just give him the opportunity to do his job, and wait to get information directly from him. I understand the economic incentive for collectors is in his agenda.

 

[mark@mac]

All,

I want you to know that the MAC Certified collectors ARE getting more money for their fish. I know this first hand as I have had a major role in this. This is one of the biggest reasons I am here. This is the only way we can create incentive for them to stop using cyanide and/or keep up with proper, responsible, SUSTAINABLE collection.

Some exporters realize this and are working with us in a positive manner toward the future.

The industry, and many ignorant hobbyists are still supporting the other exporters who still don't care at this point.

I don't have time to respond to the other bs comments/accusations here... I worked 12 to 14 hours a day every day last week.... It's 5 am monday morning and gonna do it again......

Mark

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mark,,

Keep up the good work

 

[coralfarmin]

Keep on sloggin :wink: :arrow:

 

[Anonymous]

I want you to know that the MAC Certified collectors ARE getting more money for their fish.

From non-MAC exporters and that they are going to Europe.

The industry, and many ignorant hobbyists are still supporting the other exporters who still don't care at this point.

Hobbists have NO control over exporters or importers. And to suggest that is an insult. Hobbiests can only control what they buy and where they buy it. We get what we can from where we can. Most have no choices in where to purchase their livestock. It's not like I can buy my stuff directly from Steve (importer), BUT if I could, I would.

 

[mark@mac]

Dear Boobie Rhinosprinkles,

Exporters. importers, other retailers, and hobbyists have ALL the control/power over exporters and importers...... We simply don't use it collectively to achieve our most common goals.....

Mark

 

[coralfarmin]

hey mark,
Just a little input, after dealing with several hobbyists online, I'd say that alot of them don't have a clue about cyanide collection, or even the existense of this BB

you are right we can all take control...or I will....just kiddin
thats where our, collective goal comes into play,imo, to spread the word
Thats why I wan't to support ALL the good guys, and rally that type of support group

 

[coralfarmin]

not to mention, according to everything I comprehended here, no one has any other choice, at this point, since nothin is certified over here.(that I am aware of)
I know you guys are try'n to correct that though & I like your die-hard attitude, so have faith still
I could get fish transshiped to me from Bail,Solomon,Tonga and a few more good spots,fairly reasonable....but how do I know how they were collected :?:
without sending them to a lab

there is alot of talk here, but the only thing I see *as proof imo* that supports islanders and reefs *imo* are the mariculterd acros already on my importer/transshippers list...I know, other suppliers already have them also though...but I like this supplier ALOT

get some certified fish, & I will try to hook you up with them, if they are interested, they already supply some :wink: wholesalers and retailers, since the very early 90's,on the east and west coast, with marines :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

hey mark,
Just a little input, after dealing with several hobbyists online, I'd say that alot of them don't have a clue about cyanide collection, or even the existense of this BB

thats where our, collective goal comes into play, to spread the word imo
Thats why I wan't to support ALL the good guys, and rally that type of support group

MAC likes to spread word to children about nemo-have you seen one their 'spokespersons' ? :wink:

(hint-it's in a past newsletter)


MAC has done NOTHING to inform the general public about cyanide, what it is, or where it's used, and what it does to the children using/living with it though.....


i wonder what that 'spokesperson' would have to say about those his age that die from daily exposure to toys made from cyanide bottles ? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[coralfarmin]

Vitz,I respect you but
IMO no one here likes to be cut down and I think mark is being calm and collected, I have had worse private context, to read from things someone took out of contex, who I had the utmost respect for....blind sided me actualy...
be sure to say soely imo, is all I can say so you can stay, *a step ahead*...instead of a *step away*...or you may have to play dumb like me..............one day, imo

I'll be alot more careful myself and am actualy going to reread and edit any mistakes, for future readers if I made any :wink:
I have even thought of abandoning any further context here

then I just started rethinkin how I outline it....since I think we all are really on the same page...just don't realize it yet

soely imo

 

[Anonymous]

look, it may be worthwhile for you to understand one thing about me...


knowing what i know about MAC,(and i know maybe more than some here realize, or think i know) i think they're the scum of the earth

i think anyone who works for them, or joins up with them, is by extension, also the scum of the earth

but then again-that's just mho :wink:

i've also had one occasion to have a 'run-in' w/mark, and the impression i got is that he and MAC deserve each other

a buncha used car salesmen, if you ask me :roll:

 

[coralfarmin]

Ok...I really wer'nt worried about the private context I got, since I usaly try to keep all my bases coverd, when it comes to the real world, just edited out of respect, since I want to try to respect everyone, if they think I have disrespected them,and not cause anymore over reactions, to my contex, .....it was very ironic... imo I even printed it, before the edit, to be safe...and had it analyzed..

imo,your extreme context above is also proof positive to me, of that irony, imo
I still have the same utmost respect for everyone here though, even you

If you think I am scum of the earth for not being bias, then so be it, I can live with that, without being defensive and makin extreme threats or anything....heck we are all human...are'nt we

all soely imo