Hobbiest comments to the MAC guys.

[Jaime Baquero]

Steve wrote earlier;

PS. Besides, they have some talented Filipino " assistant trainers" to show them how to do it. They sort of teach the teacher...to then teach. [ see, I said they're not all gone!]
Only a few of them are left in the Philippines though, about 35 or so of the very best ones are working abroad in Saudi, Belize, Vanuatu, Tonga etc.
. This brain drain has hurt progress in P.I. but at least business people know talent and they pay for it. NGOs have largely been jealous of this talent and don't want it to get to center stage and usurp them in the limelight.

And....I happen to know of 6 more Filipino netsman that are leaving next week to work in Tonga.
Will the last experienced net collector left in P.I. please turn out the lights?
Steve
PS. Their talent seems to be appreciated everywhere more then in their own country...and thats because these guys are paid so little by MAC for their value to the cause and so much better abroad.

What is really hurting progress is the cheap price trained collectors have been getting for their collected fish. There is not an economic incentive and we all know it.

As you said in a previous message "a few hundred"collectors were trained while you were in the Philippines. It doesn't mean the world stopped turning because Robinson left the Philippines. After you left " a few hundred" more were trained by very competent and talented fisherfolks that became masters of collecting fish with nets. That transfert of technology has been done and the fisherfolks learnt it.

What has been said here by Robinson is misleading the readers, once again, about net training in the Philippines.

Net training is ONLY one of the pieces of the puzzle. Economic incentives to help to aleviate fisherfolks poverty is a must, other social aspects must be addressed by the Filipino government.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

No all good fish collectors trained in the past are in other countries. The are in the Philippines and are training other collectors.

I take offense to that, I happen to be a procollector , imo :lol:

Anyone, who has access to chickens can learn to collect fish :lol:
If you have ever tried catchin chickens, with your hands & the left, right, slow, fast, sike-out, manuver....with the possiblity of the chicken gettin sporatic, unpredictable bursts of energy, in a 360 degree radius.
And also, collected marine fish

you'd know what I was talkin about :lol:

CF,

I have been a fisherfolk myself and worked with fisherfolks in different developping countries. I know what is to be drifting all night in a 18' boat facing rough seas sharing experiences with very competent fisherfolks.
Also I had the opportunity of collecting fish in the Philippines, it is a great experience. I hope you will have the chance of doing it at least once in your life time.

CF, for your information I am Marine Biologist who has learnt, first hand, about all the problems this trade has since I became a volunteer for Ocean Voice International back in 1990. Since then, I had the opportunity of knowing the many secrets of this trade from the collection point to the retailer level, including of course the aquarium hobbyists. I met many fisherfolks in the Philippines, worked with them, I visited almost all the exporting facilities in Manila, I was the President of the Ottawa Aquarium Society, and also was working in different aquarium stores in Ottawa giving advice to marine aquarium hobbyists in our region.

I was invited as speaker to MACNA X in los Angeles, the topic of my presentation was very interesting, the focus was handling and holding of marine ornamental fish after collection and incentives to keep fisherfolks using nets instead of cyanide.

I am also an excellent fish keeper.

Sorry but I do not know any thing about chickens, I hope you have fun running and collecting chickens :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

Jaime wrote;
" Economic incentives to help to aleviate fisherfolks poverty is a must, other social aspects must be addressed by the Filipino government."

You do relize that the procurement of social justice and curing poverty is slightly is slightly beyond the scope of any tropical fish reform project.
It is the greatest challenge to civilization and certainly not in the skill sets of our little Aquarium NGOs.

Steve

 

[clarionreef]

After you left " a few hundred" more were trained by very competent :roll: and talented fisherfolks that became masters of collecting fish with nets. That transfer of technology has been done and the fisherfolks learnt it.
Thats good news!

Then the problems solved??
ACTUALLY, ALL OVER THE WORLD YOU GET PRODUCTION OUT OF FILIPINO NETCOLLECTORS...EVERYWHERE.
Only MAC cant seem to get production going...Now why is that?
Steve
PS.
Theres still the little thing that the divers keep asking for over and over again. You know, the thing that the foreigners don't take seriously.
[The different nettings to actually catch with.]

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime wrote;
" Economic incentives to help to aleviate fisherfolks poverty is a must, other social aspects must be addressed by the Filipino government."

You do relize that the procurement of social justice and curing poverty is slightly is slightly beyond the scope of any tropical fish reform project.
It is the greatest challenge to civilization and certainly not in the skill sets of our little Aquarium NGOs.

Steve

Neither in the skill set of Steve Robinson... the greatest :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

Jaime,
Solving poverty first then net training...
What kind of nonsense is that?

Then he writes:
I was invited as speaker to MACNA X in los Angeles, the topic of my presentation was very interesting, the focus was handling and holding of marine ornamental fish after collection and incentives to keep fisherfolks using nets instead of cyanide.

I am also an excellent fish keeper. :lol:

Who did you think was the greatest??

 

[Jaime Baquero]

After you left " a few hundred" more were trained by very competent :roll: and talented fisherfolks that became masters of collecting fish with nets. That transfer of technology has been done and the fisherfolks learnt it.
Thats good news!

Who do you think is collecting all the fish coming to the States and Europe? Fish quality is better than before

Then the problems solved??

You know very well the problem is more than nets and training. I know a good number of good trainers that went to other countries to teach other collectors how to do it...and well. Also, they were collecting fish and getting better prices for their fishes. Those filipino collectors... everywhere (except the Philippines) are getting more money for their fish, meaning there is an incentive for their work.

ACTUALLY, ALL OVER THE WORLD YOU GET PRODUCTION OUT OF FILIPINO NETCOLLECTORS...EVERYWHERE.
Only MAC cant seem to get production going...Now why is that?

You have been there and know very well what is the relationship between fish buyers and collectors. They are in the field buying the production.


Steve
PS.
Theres still the little thing that the divers keep asking for over and over again. You know, the thing that the foreigners don't take seriously.
[The different nettings to actually catch with.]

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime,
Solving poverty first then net training...
What kind of nonsense is that?



Then he writes:
I was invited as speaker to MACNA X in los Angeles, the topic of my presentation was very interesting, the focus was handling and holding of marine ornamental fish after collection and incentives to keep fisherfolks using nets instead of cyanide.

I am also an excellent fish keeper. :lol:

Who did you think was the greatest??

The economic incentives is given to the collector by paying more for the collected fish after getting trained is the logic of the matter. Now, we have many fisherfolks trained but the $ incentive is not there. Hundreds of fish collectors were trained by NGOs ....but the industry didn't follow with the $ incentive.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

After you left " a few hundred" more were trained by very competent :roll: and talented fisherfolks that became masters of collecting fish with nets. That transfer of technology has been done and the fisherfolks learnt it.
Thats good news!

Then the problems solved??
ACTUALLY, ALL OVER THE WORLD YOU GET PRODUCTION OUT OF FILIPINO NETCOLLECTORS...EVERYWHERE.
Only MAC cant seem to get production going...Now why is that?
Steve
PS.
Theres still the little thing that the divers keep asking for over and over again. You know, the thing that the foreigners don't take seriously.
[The different nettings to actually catch with.]

Don't you think that Filipino fish collectors are competent and smart enough to teach other collectors the proper way of using a barrier net and collect fish?

 

[coralfarmin]

Jamie, thanxs for the information about yourself.Proof positive, that almost everyone, has a story, they want to tell. :wink:

I have spend many days/nights in the florida keys collectin fish myself :wink:
The chicken thing, was just a joke to try to lightin up the tension, I feel is in the air.Though, it is alot like chasin fish with the hand motions, imo
Fact is, reef exploitation happens right here, in US waters as well, imo
I have witnessed this first hand imo.

I am not a marine biologist, the *work regime*, I had as a child/teenager did not offer me that opportunity, and I have not *worked* overseas, like you, but *just like you* it still bothers me to know that it is worse over there. And like you, I would love to do it, *atleast once* as you put it...btw, in 1990...I was only 14-15 years old

I am just here, to learn what I can, so I can try to help, be part of the solution, one day in the future.

 

[coralfarmin]

For clarity, of my motives, to anyone who cares

I am not here to, Steal Thunder, Out-Shine, Mock, Trump or Sling Slog at anyones face.(got the slog term from Horges post) I like it :wink:
I just want to learn about reef protectin.

So please forgive me if I get out of line, with my since of humor

 

[Anonymous]

Jamie, thanxs for the information about yourself.Proof positive, that almost everyone, has a story, they want to tell. :wink:

It used to be his sig

 

[coralfarmin]

Hey, Gresh

Whats a sig ??

 

[Anonymous]

Jaime,
Solving poverty first then net training...
What kind of nonsense is that?



Then he writes:
I was invited as speaker to MACNA X in los Angeles, the topic of my presentation was very interesting, the focus was handling and holding of marine ornamental fish after collection and incentives to keep fisherfolks using nets instead of cyanide.

I am also an excellent fish keeper. :lol:

Who did you think was the greatest??

The economic incentives is given to the collector by paying more for the collected fish after getting trained is the logic of the matter. Now, we have many fisherfolks trained but the $ incentive is not there. Hundreds of fish collectors were trained by NGOs ....but the industry didn't follow with the $ incentive.

but mark just said the euro's are paying more!!! so where'd the money go to ? :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

Now, we have many fisherfolks trained but the $ incentive is not there.

The exporters all signed letters of intent...TO SUPPORT MANY LOFTY GOALS and several are certified.
Are you suggesting that they aren't getting with the program?

Forcing or mandating prices is of course impossible IN MARKET DRIVEN ECONOMIES and expecting your friends in Manila to ever pay more to their own countryman very doubtful.
What kind of price fixing scheme could work I wonder. The Philippines is not as socialistic as Canada.
From what I've seen... everyone needs a raise over there. Just ask em!
But that doesn't mean they can just get it.
To posture and pose as a champion of social justice is pretty obtuse with zero practical ideas.
S

 

[coralfarmin]

Dang Now I do feel dumb :wink:

Looked up SLOG in the dictonary...Somthin good

slog: to make ones way with great effort.

Sorry horge

and thank you at the same time :wink:

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Now, we have many fisherfolks trained but the $ incentive is not there.

The exporters all signed letters of intent...TO SUPPORT MANY LOFTY GOALS and several are certified.
Are you suggesting that they aren't getting with the program?

Forcing or mandating prices is of course impossible IN MARKET DRIVEN ECONOMIES and expecting your friends in Manila to ever pay more to their own countryman very doubtful.
What kind of price fixing scheme could work I wonder. The Philippines is not as socialistic as Canada.
From what I've seen... everyone needs a raise over there. Just ask em!
But that doesn't mean they can just get it.
To posture and pose as a champion of social justice is pretty obtuse with zero practical ideas.
S

Stop being arrogant, I am not possing as a champion of anything. It has been stated many times in this forum that fish buyers (exporters, middlemen/women) must pay more for net caught fish. Also, has been stated that importers, retailers and hobbyist should do the same.

Fisherfolks are vulnerable and will continue in the same situation unless they get organize in cooperatives or associations to avoid dealing with intermediaries (middlemen). By getting organize they'll have more power before the exporters. Is here where community organizers and community leaders play an important role.

The solution to the problem is more than simple nets and training. It is a matter of community organizing.

Helping the fisherfolks to become exporters of their own fish is an idea, that idea requieres the support of fish buyers overseas. Who is willing to buy fish directly from the collectors?

 

[coralfarmin]

Sorry everyone, I actualy thought SLOG was * Field Mud * and a *field slogger* trugged thru mud

I even had to edit my last post to *cortez* in another thread

btw
If anyone, would be interested in donating their knowledge to a potential (RE-CAP) Reef Conservation Awareness Program, for the potintal *new world*
I really lack *world organization now*

And need your help :!: Making a list of (my favortie word till slog) *potential* key proplayers from a unbias stand point.ie no *field Slog* just facts

I also, want everyone in the world to play, just want to be able to strategize a potential coaching *team*

T-together
E-everyone
A-achives
M-more

 

[coralfarmin]

Horge,
I have a potential :idea: for your cause :arrow:
A real live * field slogger * awareness dvd, with world wide exposer :wink: I could potentialy help market it thru the potential (RE-CAP) training program
So we can *all* get a *first hand glimse* at a sloggers passion and problems, that come with the territory.

Sorry, if thats a dumb idea

 

[coralfarmin]

I would like to also call my potintal *world wide team*

the *REEF-SLOGGERS*

I would *love* to make the potential
(World Organized Reef Lovers) Reef conservation awareness program(RE-CAP), a spin-off (with their help) of another program that sounds similar to the foundations name, when used as a *acronym*
But need to do some consultation first, with the potential partys of intrest

also the web address could potintialy be

www.worlwideweb. :wink: or www.worlwiderecap. :wink: or etc, etc...