cyanide fishing in the Phillipines

[clarionreef]

I killed only one person, Pol Pot killed millions. I'm not responsible for the murder of one.

Wow,
How about the co-complicity of NGOs standing by 'involved' yet playing the flute...not to mentioned Fisheries?
Surely there is more to this then harmless Kalk.

The industry has either cleverly bought them off...or they sought out the industry to be bought off.
I can tell you one thing for sure, they all get along just fine.
Mission, passion, honor, commitment, true belief should cause a bit of an issue during the nice 'socials' they often have enjoyed together but has not.
The zeal of all three is career, income, perks, salary and benefits and the "problems" created by the industry are what they connect on.
Kalk is old school and defends a guilty industry while the industry goes out with the judges, the lawyers and the ...er...'environmentalists to dinner.
Although the exporters, MAC and fisheries agree to endless timetables to get nothing done, they do not have any philosophical disagreements worth debating over . The only passion ever shown on this issue is here on RDO....and if only they would appear again, you could see them for the clueless, ordinary, non inspired thinkers they are.
They have basically thru osmosis...become one.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

What you call "the Industry" is actually an tiny fraction of the total Marine ornamental Industry.

Once again:

This is again the same fallacy, the same argument, warmed over, yet again...
I killed only one person, Pol Pot killed millions. I'm not responsible for the murder of one.

Guilty is guilty, regardless the number of people that you murder.

Your argument, Kalk, is complete fantasy, fallacy, smoke and mirrors...
Earlier, you admitted that industry was guilty, now it isn't. You can't have it both ways.

How are companies that are never involved with PI fish responsible for cyanide fishermen in the Philippines? Even if I only know someone that killed one person I equally share the blame? Guilt be association?
Are seafood fishermen in Alaska responsible for seafood fishermen in the Philippines? because they are all part of the sea food industry?
Is Uncle Ben to blame for how Hong Kong live fish markets collect live fish?
Does this work in reverse? Can we hold the Philippine cyanide fishermen responsible for the guys in Florida collecting recordia?

 

[Anonymous]

What you call "the Industry" is actually an tiny fraction of the total Marine ornamental Industry.

Once again:

This is again the same fallacy, the same argument, warmed over, yet again...
I killed only one person, Pol Pot killed millions. I'm not responsible for the murder of one.

Guilty is guilty, regardless the number of people that you murder.

Your argument, Kalk, is complete fantasy, fallacy, smoke and mirrors...
Earlier, you admitted that industry was guilty, now it isn't. You can't have it both ways.

How are companies that are never involved with PI fish responsible for cyanide fishermen in the Philippines? Even if I only know someone that killed one person I equally share the blame? Guilt be association?
Are seafood fishermen in Alaska responsible for seafood fishermen in the Philippines? because they are all part of the sea food industry?
Is Uncle Ben to blame for how Hong Kong live fish markets collect live fish?
Does this work in reverse? Can we hold the Philippine cyanide fishermen responsible for the guys in Florida collecting recordia?

Uncle Ben's, as in the instant rice stuff? Hows the pertain to seafood collections?

The entire industry is built on the cheapness of PI fish, hence all the industry is guilty, regardless of *IF* you even sold a fish as you still enjoyed the windfall it produced. The industry as we know it up until now, has been built on the PI price scheme. Reefing is changing that, but we still draw a major percent of our fish from PI.

BTW, now which one were you grasping at?

 

[Anonymous]

:lol:

 

[Kalkbreath]

The industry is not Phipppine fish.
Maybe twenty percent of the total dollars importers spend on live stock is PI fish. And only twenty percent of the PI fish is cyanide fish.
You all are living back in the 1980s.
Why you insist on blaming Fiji, Solomons, Hawaii. Kupang , Vanuatu, Tonga, Shri lanka, Marshals, Christmas Island Pohnpei,Veitnam,Florida,Red Sea,Austrail, ORA, Ocean rider all the coral farms and Others is beyond my understanding. These countries and the importers that base their business from these non Philippine collection areas have no control over what happens in PI.
Next you will be claiming that the guests workers from Mexico need to hand over forty acres and a mule as part of their repayment for being associated with America.
But I do agree that your right that Uncle Ben has nothing to do with the fish business............What is the name of the fishermen in the rain suite on the box of frozen fish sticks? Paul the fishermen?

 

[Anonymous]

Gorton's ?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

The value of ornamental fish coming to the US from Indonesia and the Philippines is as follows.

Indonesia
2000 US$ 5.086.000
2001 $ 5.487.000
2002 $ 5.284.000
2003 $ 5.058.000
2004 $ 5.278.000

Philippines

2000 US$ 2.943.000
2001 $ 3.301.000
2002 $ 3.577.000
2003 $ 3.447.000
2004 $ 3.396.000

Source US Census Bureau & Statistics Canada

We all know that many importers "under" value the shipments. Those numbers include ornamental fish (Fresh and marines). I do not know what is the percentage of freshwater.. Anyhow, those numbers show us that the trade coming form those two countries is still significant.

I think that many importers, wholesalers and retailers in the states are getting marine fish from those countries where we know the use of cyanide is an environmental problem.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

The value of ornamental fish coming from Singapore.

2000 US$ 7.900.000
2001 $ 8.400.000
2002 $ 8.200.000
2003 $ 7.500.000
2004 $ 8.500.000

We also know that many fish (from PI and IN) get to the states via Singapore.

It includes freshwater, but the % of marines is high.

Kalk, these numbers are recent.

 

[Anonymous]

you expect kalk's 'data' to have any reflection on real world data?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[mkirda]

The industry is not Phipppine fish.
Maybe twenty percent of the total dollars importers spend on live stock is PI fish. And only twenty percent of the PI fish is cyanide fish.

Kalk,

You prove my point yet again.
The Marine Ornamental Industry is guilty of importing illegally caught fish, which is illegal in this country too.

Thank you.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Those numbers look reasonable to me. But I dont know what the US census is doing with fish numbers? The estimated value of shipments which is used on US customs and Airline paperwork includes the cost of AIR freight, which is greater then the cost of the actual fish in the box.
But three million seems about right.
I know of at least five wholesalers on 103 street that spend more then that a year on livestock and there are fifty wholesalers in Calif.
Like I said , fish from PI are a tiny portion of the industry.

 

[mkirda]

Why you insist on blaming Fiji, Solomons, Hawaii. Kupang , Vanuatu, Tonga, Shri lanka, Marshals, Christmas Island Pohnpei,Veitnam,Florida,Red Sea,Austrail, ORA, Ocean rider all the coral farms and Others is beyond my understanding. These countries and the importers that base their business from these non Philippine collection areas have no control over what happens in PI.

Again, Kalk, you are squirming back and forth, grasping at straws, doing anything you can to avoid the actual issue itself. Coral farms? What the heck do they have to do with the importation of Marine fish? This is so far afield, so far off base as to be insulting or laughable (I'm not sure which.)

And yet, you prove my point again, citing numbers that the US imports fish that were caught illegally with cyanide.

For proving my point, I cannot thank you enough.

And, Gresham, for the record, I think it was the green one.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

The industry is not Phipppine fish.
Maybe twenty percent of the total dollars importers spend on live stock is PI fish. And only twenty percent of the PI fish is cyanide fish.

Kalk,

You prove my point yet again.
The Marine Ornamental Industry is guilty of importing illegally caught fish, which is illegal in this country too.

Thank you.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Lets make it easier for mike to express himself, Tell us how the companies that sell only Fiji and Tongan products are responsible for how collectors fish in other countries?
Then to help us better understand his position.............please list other industries in which the same guilt by association rules apply.
I can't think of any.

 

[mkirda]

Lets make it easier for mike to express himself, Tell us how the companies that sell only Fiji and Tongan products are responsible for how collectors fish in other countries?
Then to help us better understand his position.............please list other industries in which the same guilt by association rules apply.
I can't think of any.

You wan't draw me into this, Kalk, as it is irrelevant.
Remember, Murder is murder, regardless of how many you kill.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Why you insist on blaming Fiji, Solomons, Hawaii. Kupang , Vanuatu, Tonga, Shri lanka, Marshals, Christmas Island Pohnpei,Veitnam,Florida,Red Sea,Austrail, ORA, Ocean rider all the coral farms and Others is beyond my understanding. These countries and the importers that base their business from these non Philippine collection areas have no control over what happens in PI.

Again, Kalk, you are squirming back and forth, grasping at straws, doing anything you can to avoid the actual issue itself. Coral farms? What the heck do they have to do with the importation of Marine fish? This is so far afield, so far off base as to be insulting or laughable (I'm not sure which.)

And yet, you prove my point again, citing numbers that the US imports fish that were caught illegally with cyanide.
For proving my point, I cannot thank you enough.

And, Gresham, for the record, I think it was the green one.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Lets use the Clarions as an example, Smaller number of ilegal fish ,but you claim that even one criminal event transends to everyone who makes up the industry.
do you also feel that" the industry" is responsible for what the people involved with these fish did ?

 

[mkirda]

Lets use the Clarions as an example, Smaller number of ilegal fish ,but you claim that even one criminal event transends to everyone who makes up the industry.
do you also feel that" the industry" is responsible for what the people involved with these fish did ?

In a very limited Clarion example:
The smuggler, as well as anyone who received them, should be in jail, or fined heavily, whatever the law allows. How much clearer and more common sense could you possibly want?

Mike

 

[Kalkbreath]

So the industry is responsible or not? I think we already understood that the people who touched the fish should be held responsible.
Whats unclear is if your rules on guilt by association apply this event as well? Very few of the 1000s companies which make up "the industry" were involved with the Clarions. Yet you claim that killing one makes the entire industry culpable.

 

[mkirda]

So the industry is responsible or not? I think we already understood that the people who touched the fish should be held responsible.
Whats unclear is if your rules on guilt by association apply this event as well? Very few of the 1000s companies which make up "the industry" were involved with the Clarions. Yet you claim that killing one makes the entire industry culpable.

This post is insulting.

Moving the same logic to an episode in history:
Mike: The Nazis are guilty of a great wrong in History, that of genocide, trying to eliminate the Jews.
Kalk: No they're not.
Mike: They ran camps dedicated to killing people.
Kalk: But there were good Nazis that didn't kill people.

I find it outrageous and insulting. The fact that there were Nazis that didn't pull a trigger is meaningless here.

 

[Kalkbreath]

So were all Germans part of the Natzi industry?
You like to hold entire groups of people responsible for what its individual members do.
Again your claiming that only a few people in this industry are not envolved with fish from the Philippines. Not everyone currently living in Germany was part of the Hitler event and not everyone currently making a living in this industry is demanding cyainde fish. [if anyone}

You failed at explaining how WSI is responsible........let move to the next company PAF.
There are a lot of companies which make up this industry so be patient, going through each company one by one may take a while.

But it would take even longer to list all the names of German citizens who were not responsible for what happened to the jews. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

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