cyanide fishing in the Phillipines

[Anonymous]

Those numbers look reasonable to me. But I dont know what the US census is doing with fish numbers? The estimated value of shipments which is used on US customs and Airline paperwork includes the cost of AIR freight, which is greater then the cost of the actual fish in the box.
But three million seems about right.
I know of at least five wholesalers on 103 street that spend more then that a year on livestock and there are fifty wholesalers in Calif.
Like I said , fish from PI are a tiny portion of the industry.

Theres that many wholesalers a BLOCK away from the real marine wholesale strip (104th street) in Los Angeles?

To correct those US Census #'s, simply multiply them by 10 to get the actual invoice cost. Those numbers are EXTREMELLY under valued. Perfoma invoices are bogus, everyone but Kalk seems to know this :roll:

 

[Kalkbreath]

So what would you estimate the cost paid for 5 to 6 million fish from PI? Keep in mind that half of the total are damsels at 20cents.
{Your right 104th street. }

 

[mkirda]

You failed at explaining how WSI is responsible.

I didn't fail to explain it- I didn't explain it.
As I indicated the first time, I refuse to get drawn into your little fluffy little meaningless sideshow thing as it is too purile, meaningless, and insulting to warrant a response.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Just to compare;

Ornamental from Fiji to the US


2000 US$ 4.812
2001 $ 35.304
2002 $ 179.231
2003 $ 141.813


From Christmas Island

2003 US$ 3.657
2004 $ 19.642

From Sri Lanka

2000 US$ 1.020.000
2001 893.000
2002 1.064.000
2003 1.232.000
2004 1.626.000

We can see there is a big difference with the imports from PI and IN. One could think the proportion is almost the same than back in the 80's. Philippines and Indonesia 70% of the trade of marine ornamentals.

Considering GreshamH's statement about the actual invoice value, we can say that the industry is not only ripping off the coral reefs and exploiting collectors in developping countries but also ripping off the fiscal system in the states. Isn't that illegal Kalk?

 

[Kalkbreath]

The fact that the larger freshwater industry is mixed within the Data. Makes comparing countries that dont export much freshwater fish with those that only export salt like Fiji......difficult.
Thats why we should use the fish count to estimate the total dollars spent. If there are five million fish and the average fish sells FOB for less then one dollar, then the total market is less then five million. take into account that half the fish actuallsell for 20 cents and the total shrinks even furture...........to about two million dollars spent per year on PI fish.
If the numbers are correct , notice the shift away from Pi fish and demand in cyanide free countries is increasing year after year........furture proof that the industry is reeforming itself.

 

[Kalkbreath]

You failed at explaining how WSI is responsible.

I didn't fail to explain it- I didn't explain it.
As I indicated the first time, I refuse to get drawn into your little fluffy little meaningless sideshow thing as it is too purile, meaningless, and insulting to warrant a response.

Your grouping everyone in the trade together. Yet you cant explain your logic behind it? If the industry is responsible, then so is ORA and Walt. They are part of the industry.
Lets back up .......What exactly is the "INDUSTRY"
Is it the pet fish industry, including freshwater?
Is it only marine industry? But what about coral farms and Fiji?

 

[mkirda]

Your grouping everyone in the trade together.

No, *you* are.

The problem here isn't a failure to communicate, but a failure to understand simple concepts.

An example:

I stated that the Nazis were guilty of genocide against the Jews.

Your reply twisted this simple concept beyond the straightforward statement that it was and included another group, all German citizens. Not all Germans were Nazis, nor were all Nazis German. I never mentioned Germany at all, as it was not really germane.

This is a good example of where a simple statement is made, but it then gets mangled beyond recognition immediately.

I am not interested in going through a list of every citizen living in Europe and beyond in the years between 1936 and 1945 and trying to judge them as being culpable of genocide. I don't have enough time for that in a thousand lifetimes. Nor am I interested in going through with you a list of every single company across the globe that handles marine ornamentals. It is fundamentally a waste of time, effort, intellect and bandwidth.

You state that the marine ornamental industry is guilty by providing numbers proving the fact, then want to go through a list of every company to assign them a percentage of guilt? No thank you. You go waste your time. No need to waste mine.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[bookfish]

I think we're in agreement that on some level, the marine aquarium industry is PERCEIVED to have a hand in damaging the reefs. I would even concede that the public perception may be wrong in thinking that we're one of the major parts of the problem. I think that habitat destruction and water quality degradation are far larger threats in general.
However, I do think the time is coming when legislation and/or consumer attitudes will have a major impact on sourcing of livestock. I think it's a smart industry that gets ahead of that curve. -Jim

 

[Anonymous]

kalk can't get a grasp on the concept of cleanings one's own house


the whole point kalk, which you well know by now-is to own up to the damage caused by those who do damage, by those who directly or indirectly support those who cause that damage

we know you understand this-but you still just want to continue these useless irrelevant arguments you've been repeating almost verbatim for over two years :lol:

 

[Kalkbreath]

I still would like to hear of another industry where this guilt by association also applies? |

The cabbage farmers and the cocaine farmers equally share the burden of crack babies?

The pet fish industry has over the years evolved into separate and distinct sub industries. The fresh water portion of the hobby moved from being mostly wild collection, to farm raised. They effectively succeeded from the union. {pet fish industry}
The marine portion of the industry has also developed various distinct product streams originating from a wide range of locations world wide.
If we would agree that the fresh water portion of the industry is no longer culpable in the collection of salt water fish, then it also should follow that other separatists of the industry are likewise exculpated for the same reasons.
those willing to blanket the entire hobby with blame , either purposely or un intently denigrate the tremendous efforts made by marine livestock farmers and collectors in recent years. One should question the motives of people willing to blindly overlook both the tens of thousands of farmed corals and the net fish now flooding the market from non Indonesian sources.

 

[mkirda]

I still would like to hear of another industry where this guilt by association also applies?

See the recent Supreme Court ruling on companies that produce peer-to-peer software.

That ought to be an eye-opener.

 

[mkirda]

One should question the motives of people willing to blindly overlook both the tens of thousands of farmed corals and the net fish now flooding the market from non Indonesian sources.

One can also question the motives of people willfully including non-fish products in a discussion centered on the importation of illegally caught (via cyanide) marine fish into the United States of America.
As I have said twice before, corals of any type are not relevent to the discussion here.
Stop insulting us by trying to include them, Kalk.

 

[Anonymous]

I still would like to hear of another industry where this guilt by association also applies? |

The cabbage farmers and the cocaine farmers equally share the burden of crack babies?

The pet fish industry has over the years evolved into separate and distinct sub industries. The fresh water portion of the hobby moved from being mostly wild collection, to farm raised. They effectively succeeded from the union. {pet fish industry}
The marine portion of the industry has also developed various distinct product streams originating from a wide range of locations world wide.
If we would agree that the fresh water portion of the industry is no longer culpable in the collection of salt water fish, then it also should follow that other separatists of the industry are likewise exculpated for the same reasons.
those willing to blanket the entire hobby with blame , either purposely or un intently denigrate the tremendous efforts made by marine livestock farmers and collectors in recent years. One should question the motives of people willing to blindly overlook both the tens of thousands of farmed corals and the net fish now flooding the market from non Indonesian sources.

any industry whose members have a sense of self responsibility for their own, and their industry associates', actions

 

[Kalkbreath]

If corals,
freshwater fish,
saltwater inverts,
fish from Fiji,
fish from Solomon's,
fish from Vanuatu,
fish from Christmas Island,
fish from Haiti,
fish from Florida,
fish from Hawaii,
fish from Ponhpei,
fish from Mexico,
fish from Brazil,
fish from California,
fish from new Caledonia,
fish from Dominica,
fish from Papa new guinea
fish from Palau
fish from Marshals,
fish from Tahiti,
fish from ORA,
fish from Vietnam,
fish from Africa, ............................... do not count in your accountablity charge,

then how can you claim the entire industry is responsible?


What industry is it you are referring to when you use the words "the industry"?
What industry is it that the peer to peer file swappers are a part of? lets shut down the Internet industry!. What industry were you part of as a child in the 1970s,when you let friends barrow your records and tapes?

 

[mkirda]

If corals,
freshwater fish,
saltwater inverts,
fish from Fiji,
fish from Solomon's,
fish from Vanuatu,
fish from Christmas Island,
fish from Haiti,
fish from Florida,
fish from Hawaii,
fish from Ponhpei,
fish from Mexico,
fish from Brazil,
fish from California,
fish from new Caledonia,
fish from Dominica,
fish from Papa new guinea
fish from Palau
fish from Marshals,
fish from Tahiti,
fish from ORA,
fish from Vietnam,
fish from Africa, ............................... do not count in your accountablity charge,

then how can you claim the entire industry is responsible?


What industry is it you are referring to when you use the words "the industry"?
What industry is it that the peer to peer file swappers are a part of? lets shut down the Internet industry!. What industry were you part of as a child in the 1970s,when you let friends barrow your records and tapes?

Again, Kalk, just because there were Nazis who didn't pull a trigger doesn't absolve them of their crimes. You can point out the so-called 'Good Nazis' all you want, but it doesn't absolve them of genocide.

If you cannot understand this simple concept, god help you.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

The Nazi were an organized group, a true" industry" they held meetings they defined objectives and goals agreeing to act as one unified voice ...thousands working for one common objective.

There is no orgainzation within the fish business, no group cooberation . Most fish companies dont even talk with the fish business next door, let alone plan together natonwide on how to get more of those poisoned fish out of PI!

 

[mkirda]

There is no orgainzation within the fish business, no group cooberation .

I beg to differ.

http://ptfea.org/

 

[Douglas S Lehman]

Lets try this Mike, the "industry" perpetuates the system by selling and importing cheap, poisioned and poorly handled marine fish that are doomed to a early grave!, or maybe the "industry" just dosen't care! They can just order some more fish can't they?

 

[Kalkbreath]

There is no orgainzation within the fish business, no group cooberation .

I beg to differ.

http://ptfea.org/

So thats what you ment by" the Industry"

I thought all this time you were referring to the US pet fish industry.

 

[mkirda]

There is no orgainzation within the fish business, no group cooberation .

I beg to differ.

http://ptfea.org/

So thats what you ment by" the Industry"

I thought all this time you were referring to the US pet fish industry.

See, this is again where you yet again make a huge, major mistaken assumption.

You make a statement that something doesn't exist.
I provide an example that it does.
You use the example and expand it to mean something it doesn't.
Instead you keep taking focused limited points and expand them into something they aren't.

In other words, 'The industry' <> PTFEA.
I'll give you another hint: PTFEA < 'The Industry'.
Third hint: 'The Industry' (as I have repeatedly defined it) is confined to marine ornamentals. You can go back and look at the Topic of this thread and make an assumption to further refine this group. That would get you to an area of the planet, plus every importer in the US that imports from these places. From there, basically all LFS's in this country are going to become involved.

If you still don't understand the marine ornamental subsection of the industry that you are in, may I suggest another line of employment?