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JennM

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Lee, for the reasons I stated earlier - once an organism leaves our care custody and control, we can assume no liability. I don't sell "out of the bag" or I'd have a lot more DAA claims by customers. I do hold my fish for a week or more. I usually try to label my fish with their arrival date too (though I get behind in doing that more often than I'd like to).

If I sell a fish and it dies 13 days after purchase, what did my store have to do with that fish's demise? If it was sick, it would become apparent long before that. If it was shipping stress from going from my store to the client's house, it would occur before that too.

If it's going to die 13 days later, it's usually because of hobbyist error or ignorance. I'm not willing to take that on.

My guarantee is in line with the industry standard in these parts, and as I said nothing is written in stone - I can use my discretion beyond the 24 hours as I see fit. Given my own husbandry practices and my selling methods, I always test the client's water before a fish is bagged - exceptions being my regulars whom I know have become experienced hobbyists. This safeguards the organisms first, the customer second, and myself third - it's win/win all around.

Another factor... customer buys fish X at my place, and fish Y at another place on the same weekend. Perhaps the fish X that originated in my shop is healthy and fine, but that may not be the case with the fish purchased at the other dealer. I only have control of what my store does and practices. If fish Y purchased elsewhere is sick and shares the joy with the fish purchased from me, why should I eat that loss too? The same could be said in reverse... why should someone else's store eat the loss for something I may have sold?

Not all stores or etailers are created equal - we've established that - so I'd prefer not to assume the risk of eating a loss for a disease that may be present in a hobbyist's tank, or introduced by organisms purchased someplace else.

Jenn
 
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dizzy":1t62x69q said:
Lee,
You forgot to explain how people buy fish and then go shopping elsewhere. Often leaving the fish in the hot sun for extended periods, despite warnings not to from the lfs. I've had people kill some of the healthiest fish in the world and bring back the body demanding another. There are a lot of idiots and crooks out there. It's let the retailer beware with some of them.

Moralities from leaving the animals in a hot car/cold car did run through my mind. However, I didn't think that I was obligated to provide an exhaustive list of reasons for mortality, Mitch.

Yet my question remains: if a large etailer has a DOA of less than 1% when shipping to the customer shouldn't the DOA from B&M to customer's tank be the same or less than that? It also seems that the 24 hr mortality in customer's tanks should be better for the B&M because the fish that didn't ship well from the wholesaler shouldn't have placed for sale. Both the etailer and the B&M have to deal with graft and customer stupidity, right? Are you implying that people that shop at B&Ms are less trustworthy or less capable than those that shop etail?

If you had to guess, what % of the fish you sell die within 1 day, 3 days, 7 days, 14 days of being placed in a customer's tank? Let's face it; the reasons guarantees aren't popular with the B&M crowd is because it would eat into the bottom line, we don't know how expensive it would be to implement, no one is holding the B&Ms toes to the fire to provide them, and B&M owners (just like everyone else) don't like to have to think about change.
 

pk1

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That is a complicated question. I know you get your fish from the same places as they do. But it's not that simple. IMO, quality does not just include just a "better fish", it's the whole buying experience, including warranty, customer service, availability and so forth, which I'm sure you understand, being a business owner. If you had a 2 wholesaler's offering you the same product, and 1 had better warranties and very good customer service, who would you buy from? BUT, I get to see your fish first. That should stand for something. IMO, as a hobbyist, LFS should step up and offer a better warranty. 24 hours is not long enough. 3 days is not long enough. You also have more control over what type of customer is buying your fish, so your warranty pay outs should not be so intolerable. Sorry if that comes off as overstepping my bounds, I am not telling you how to run your compnay...just an opionion.

Patrick
 
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Anonymous

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JennM":3lquhuor said:
Lee, for the reasons I stated earlier - once an organism leaves our care custody and control, we can assume no liability. I don't sell "out of the bag" or I'd have a lot more DAA claims by customers. I do hold my fish for a week or more. I usually try to label my fish with their arrival date too (though I get behind in doing that more often than I'd like to).

If I sell a fish and it dies 13 days after purchase, what did my store have to do with that fish's demise? If it was sick, it would become apparent long before that. If it was shipping stress from going from my store to the client's house, it would occur before that too.

If it's going to die 13 days later, it's usually because of hobbyist error or ignorance. I'm not willing to take that on.

My guarantee is in line with the industry standard in these parts, and as I said nothing is written in stone - I can use my discretion beyond the 24 hours as I see fit. Given my own husbandry practices and my selling methods, I always test the client's water before a fish is bagged - exceptions being my regulars whom I know have become experienced hobbyists. This safeguards the organisms first, the customer second, and myself third - it's win/win all around.

Another factor... customer buys fish X at my place, and fish Y at another place on the same weekend. Perhaps the fish X that originated in my shop is healthy and fine, but that may not be the case with the fish purchased at the other dealer. I only have control of what my store does and practices. If fish Y purchased elsewhere is sick and shares the joy with the fish purchased from me, why should I eat that loss too? The same could be said in reverse... why should someone else's store eat the loss for something I may have sold?

Not all stores or etailers are created equal - we've established that - so I'd prefer not to assume the risk of eating a loss for a disease that may be present in a hobbyist's tank, or introduced by organisms purchased someplace else.

Jenn

As always your practices sound exemplary and your resolutions sound fair, Jenn.

-Lee
 

Rascal

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Maybe I should have stated this before, but the truth is I don't NEED to offer a warranty. I assume if it was an issue I would have heard about it by now. If anything, my customers by fish from me BECAUSE of my quality. They see it in the fish, they see it in the water, in out water quality, our systems, our displays. My biggest problem right now is getting the variety I need...and that I used to get a few years ago. Except for corals - much better selection and availability nowadays.
 

Rascal

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Re-reading what I just wrote....sounds a little big headed. That's not what I intended. It's just that I can't remember the last time a customer asked about a warranty policy.
 

pk1

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Thanks for the clarification Rascal. If I were a new customer to your store, and you told me that...well I'm sure you know what most reactions would be. In these times, it does not take much to loose a customer for good. Everyone wants to save a buck, loyalty is hard to find. Every little bit helps...including warranties. IMO, the B&M's need to adapt, to compete with E stores. If that includes standing behind what your sell, is that such a hard concept to understand? I only see it as a positive for everyone involved. Maybe we would see less mandarin gobies and Gonipora in LFS stores.

Patrick
 

Kalkbreath

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There are some arrangements where the drop ship wholesaler is actualy warranteeing the live stock.....NOT the E-tailer!
Its pretty easy to offer a 14 day stint when your not the one taking the hit.
 
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Anonymous

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pk1":33ebl86g said:
Thanks for the clarification Rascal. If I were a new customer to your store, and you told me that...well I'm sure you know what most reactions would be. In these times, it does not take much to loose a customer for good. Everyone wants to save a buck, loyalty is hard to find. Every little bit helps...including warranties. IMO, the B&M's need to adapt, to compete with E stores. If that includes standing behind what your sell, is that such a hard concept to understand? I only see it as a positive for everyone involved. Maybe we would see less mandarin gobies and Gonipora in LFS stores.

Patrick

Like you said, limited warranties are a great sales gimick for those that are unfamiliar with a business.
 
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Anonymous

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Rascal":xsco0ddu said:
Re-reading what I just wrote....sounds a little big headed. That's not what I intended. It's just that I can't remember the last time a customer asked about a warranty policy.

That's because many customers that think about such things are shy about asking, not because they aren't interested.
 
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Anonymous

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Kalkbreath":24piixsm said:
There are some arrangements where the drop ship wholesaler is actualy warranteeing the live stock.....NOT the E-tailer!
Its pretty easy to offer a 14 day stint when your not the one taking the hit.

...and the lowly B&M can't even get reimbursed for the DOAs they get from the wholesaler. But then again, so what? What's the moral of the story? It sucks being the little guy?
 

JennM

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I hold fish for a week or more prior to selling. IF a customer really insists on bringing it home before that, it's with full disclosure and I make them aware of the risks.

Jenn
 

JennM

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pk1":3srcegxq said:
Maybe we would see less mandarin gobies and Gonipora in LFS stores.

Patrick

Etailer in question here also offers Mandarin Dragonets (FYI they are not gobies.. major pet peeve of mine!) and Goniopora sp.

For what it's worth, I don't carry either - however I will order a Mandarin or Scooter Dragonet for a client with an appropriate system for one. And I suppose if a hobbyist requested a Goniopora because he/she felt that he had a theory on how to ensure one's survival, I'd do that too - but nobody's jumped forward to try that yet.

Jenn
 
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Anonymous

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Doesn't it take more than 14 days for a mandarin or a gonipora to starve to death?
 

dizzy

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Kalkbreath":1pwv9v5a said:
There are some arrangements where the drop ship wholesaler is actualy warranteeing the live stock.....NOT the E-tailer!
Its pretty easy to offer a 14 day stint when your not the one taking the hit.

I don't know about that one. Race told me they eat the loses not O2O. He also said it is one reason they insist that only the best fish get picked for their orders. Perhaps some of the others do it that way.
 

Rascal

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I just think that my choice to be proactive minimizes the need to be reactive (with warranties). I know my customers, and I would know if they weren't happy with my quality.
 
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Anonymous

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SciGuy2":k7ia8t1t said:
Doesn't it take more than 14 days for a mandarin or a gonipora to starve to death?

Remember the threads on the COC and how long it can take for a fish to get to the LFS? Add that 14 to on an average of another 14 - 21 days. Dragonets start the starving process the second they're caught in most cases.
 
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Anonymous

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Naw, I can't remember much about the CoC threads. They are drowned out in my recollection by the MAC and cyanide threads. :lol:
 
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Anonymous

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Huh, and here I thought all along you were a smart guy that could follow such easy threads :oops: Is it age catching up to you? :D
 

sdcfish

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Kalkbreath wrote:
There are some arrangements where the drop ship wholesaler is actualy warranteeing the live stock.....NOT the E-tailer!
Its pretty easy to offer a 14 day stint when your not the one taking the hit.

Dizzy wrote:
I don't know about that one. Race told me they eat the loses not O2O. He also said it is one reason they insist that only the best fish get picked for their orders. Perhaps some of the others do it that way.

I also would say that no wholesaler gives a doa guarantee when dropshipping to a hobbyist....I think Kalk must have misunderstood that somehow.


Gresham wrote:
Dragonets start the starving process the second they're caught in most cases.

Not any more with the new foods out on the market! You should know that Gresh! :wink:
 

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